High versus Low
HarryCH
Shipmate
We have the terms "High Church" and "Low Church", usually in respect to Church of England congregations. Is there meaning to these terms that can apply elsewhere among other Christian denominations (Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, Salvation Army, etc) or in other religions (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists)? Does "High Church" suggest a greater emphasis on formality and ritual? Is there a difference in the sense of big-tent versus small-tent? Is there a difference in the expectations for ordinands? Are there institutions (maybe the Crystal Cathedral?) that manage to be both High and Low at the same time?
Is there a tendency to evolve in one direction or the other? Is this often the basis of a schism? In the Old Testament, we have a detailed description of the Tent of the Presence including its furnishings and costumes; this sound High Church to me. In the New Testament, we are told that wherever two or three gather in Christ's name, there he is with them; this sounds Low Church to me.
I don't claim to have answers for all this. I am sure someone on the Ship can help.
Is there a tendency to evolve in one direction or the other? Is this often the basis of a schism? In the Old Testament, we have a detailed description of the Tent of the Presence including its furnishings and costumes; this sound High Church to me. In the New Testament, we are told that wherever two or three gather in Christ's name, there he is with them; this sounds Low Church to me.
I don't claim to have answers for all this. I am sure someone on the Ship can help.
Comments
It is a matter of taste IMHO far more often than it is a matter of doctrine. Theoretically all LCMS churches hold the same doctrine. But the fights arise over whether we use praise bands or organs (or both), and who moved the chancel chairs that Great-Uncle John set in that position 100 years ago.
Most Baptist churches today would be extremely "low" - i.e. very informal, no dress code for congregation or minister, no formal liturgy, people possibly even wandering in and out with mugs of coffee ...
My last church (Baptist/URC) was definitely at the other end of the spectrum: robed choir and minister, formal service format and liturgy ... and some would go further (eg the Church Secretary solemnly bringing in the Bible before worship).
I suspect that, in general, IRC and Methodist churches would be "higher" than Baptist or "New" churches, but there will always be exceptions!
BTW, I've heard of Buddhists who use prayer wheels, prayer flags, beads, incense etc. etc. being described as *High Church* or *Catholic* Buddhists!
IRC to me means Industrial Relations Commission, but I suspect that was not what you were meaning.
I'm guessing it was a typo for *URC* - United Reformed Church.
Methodism is more interesting as it depends on the origin of the church and which strand in the uniting church they come from. I have worshipped in the lowest of the low methodist but also heard of Methodist churches that have altar rails. By the lowest of the low I mean the Methodist New Connexion (Kilhamites) where I once was in fits of giggles as a visiting preacher, preached on the importance of the communion table to Methodists. He continually referred to what he thought was their communion table but was actually the youth groups pool table with a covering over it so that it looked suitable for the front of worship. The communion table there was a battered secondhand side table stuffed in beside the piano.
In some countries these differences often reflect political stances too.
It was!
Looks up with sudden interest...
Yes, indeed. But there is still a huge difference between a hierarchal liturgy in a large and magnificent cathedral with many robed clergy, and a mission community just starting out, perhaps in someone's home.
But yes, @Bishops Finger - they will both have incense.
Kind of beside the point. The one is a vertical high/low and the other is horizontal. The mission commuity is still going to use as many of the high trappings as they can afford. It is not a decision to be a low-candle Orthodox church. There's no such thing except as necessity requires.
Thank you.
Mind you the latter mob are not so much high as uber trad. Does not compare with liturgically low Anglicans vs Anglo Catholics ( here in Sinny the latter may be liturgically OTT but otherwise liberal and the local evos are anti-OOW).
RC rad trads are to the right of Genghis Khan🙀
I'd be seen as very high on communion matters but below the ground low everywhere else - eg we're all ordained etc. I'm in a Baptist Church
I don't disagree with what you say. I wrote in haste. But the two situations will give very different impressions of Orthodoxy to a non-Orthodox visitor.
Does one always reflect the other?
So what do high and low actually mean?
These days in the Anglican context ritualist/ sacramentalist ( high) vs low ( non-ritualist/ Bible based). The original meaning of high church in the Cof E(17th century) was traditionalist neo-feudalist/ high culture long before the Oxford Movement. Funnily enough Anglo-Catholics ( here in staunchly evo Sydney) are not high church socially conservative!
I’ve not heard “ high” vs “low” correctly applied here in the RC context since there is such variety in contemporary RC society. The traddy Trids are the most conservative both politically and socially but their fetish is the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and they often lack the resources for full-on extravagant liturgy.
Mind you I have heard a Uniting Church minister described by one of her flock as “high church” because she was vested in alb and (purple) stole; for some diehard former Methodists and Presbys that would have verged on the popish.
I think your last sentence needs some modification - I'd suggest "are far from all socially conservative" or something like that.
I have encountered the Tory-esque species in the UK ( All Saints Margaret St attendees) and the (RC) Oratory and St James Spanish Place set) spring to mind.
One irascible (and somewhat senile, long since having surrendered PTO) retired priest at the CofE church I attended in Lancashire referred to such attire as "rags of Rome".
I didn't envy the poor curate having to work out how to respond to his "interventions".
Thanks for that - so its about rags and rituals with no political/social connotations.
A bit different from RCs where the Tridentine lot are both socially and politically conservative (in France hankering for the restoration of the Monarchy for example, and in the USA supporters of Trump.) And there is of course a base-line below which no Catholics go - using the official texts, vestments etc.
As the movement started to grow in the parishes, especially in the newly-established churches in the expanding cities, two things happened. Priests began to experiment with more elaborate liturgy and ceremonial, and their greater awareness of the social conditions of the poor led many of them to challenge prevailing conservative politics. Both of these could be understood as expressions of the principles of the Tractarians: the church as a sacramental organism rather than an arm of the state.
Within that broad development, which changed the face of Anglicanism world-wide, there were of course many differences. But the legacy persists; generally today you can expect to find the most hardline conservative teaching on social issues (perhaps less so on party politics) in a 'low' church where the Eucharist is less central and ceremonial minimal or non-existent; radical left-wing politics and 'liberal' social attitudes are more likely to be found in a full-on Anglo-catholic parish.
But that of course is a massive oversimplification. You can also find very conservative attitudes to politics and sexuality, as well as a tendency to fogeyism in the dress and lifestyles of many worshippers, in some churches which are the Anglican equivalents of the 'Latin mass' RC parishes. And there are many liberal 'low' churches. There is too, at least among the more catholic Anglicans, a tendency for younger (probably male) priests to be more conservative in most respects, paralleling the similar tendency among RCs. Younger evangelical clergy, unlike their older counterparts, tend to have less attachment to any Anglican tradition and often seem indistinguishable from non-denominational evangelicals. And not at all like traditional mainstream 'nonconformist' churches which often are uneasy with the 'evangelical' label.
The point about younger RC priests being more conservative has been flagged in the RCC to the extent that they need specific permission from Rome to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. This has been a trend for a couple of decades to my knowledge but has been accelerating.
About 10 years ago Sydney produced a crop of traddy fellow travellers several of whom insisted on using the Extraordinary Form for their first Masses. Most have had the corners knocked off after a few years in parishes. One diehard was packed off to rural Tasmania ( the local bish was once the rector of the Sydney sem and was persuaded to take him on) where he managed to alienate the locals by swishing around in cassock and biretta, re-ordering the church and instituting the Extraordinary Form for the main Sunday parish Mass. He did not last long.
A former Anglican priest I know was as high up the candle as possible while in the C of E; when he became a Catholic (and was reordained) he relaxed significantly and became much more 'low church'.
On the other hand, I gather that there is much suspicion and even hostility among RCs towards the ex-Anglican 'Ordinariate' clergy, who are seen as being a traditionalist fifth-column. My friend was ordained as a straightforward RC priest and had nothing to do with the Ordinariate.
That seems... unlikely. There isn't really any limit to how high one can go up the candle in the CofE, if one has a mind. The heights of Catholic Anglicanism as practically unknown in modern Roman practice. You might not get many takers for a tridentine Latin Mass but that's about the only thing I can think of that isn't found somewhere in the CofE (and I'm more than ready to be contradicted on that).
Last time I was at Winchester Cathedral for Evensong the nave couldn't be used because of building work and we were seated in the choir. I could hardly breathe for incense!
Some welcome an injection of conservatism from the Ordinariate, while others don't, depending on their own views.
A few years ago I was very fortunate to be at a wedding in the Orthodox church of St Grigorios Palamas' in Thessaloniki.
The ceremony was lovely with tethered crowns (stefana) being whizzed from bride to groom and back again, and a lone singer, high up somewhere, singing continuously throughout.
There was a very informal atmosphere, though, with children running around and photographers so close to the proceedings that they could have been part of the ceremony.
I think members of the public wandered in and out at the back and took left-over communion bread.
It was all beautiful, but I wonder if it was neither high nor low but altogether in another dimension?
That sounds unusual - Winchester as in the cathedral itself is I would say fairly traditional Broad Church (and definitely not High Church), and incense is not common at Evensong at all. Also Evensong usually takes place in the choir - I've never been seated anywhere else for it, and I've lived here for a few years and have attended Evensong quite often.
Very ethnic Greek! I love the kids running in and out. In a pewless Orthodox church that is not uncommon. Or kids running back and forth from parent to godparent to favorite teenage girl. Kids that age are unable to sit still for long periods of time. Why try to make them?
I was thinking of the Eucharist. We go in for maximum bells and smells, venerating icons, lighting candles, crossing oneself many, many times. Definitely not a sermon sandwich. Indeed sermons in the Divine Liturgy are something of an innovation and far from the rule even in North America, and by and large denigrated or ridiculed in the old country.
But even in the wedding there are a lot of symbolic actions; it's not just palaver. I've been to Protestant weddings where even with a unendurable sermon the whole thing was over in 15 minutes tops. We've got stuff at the door, stuff in the middle, crowns, rings, a lovely parade, drinking wine, and lots of Scripture. Added to the usual candles, venerating icons, incense, and so on. Definitely not "low".
But no public consummation? We've been to a (very) few Orthodox weddings, and there's been so much going on we could easily have missed the consummation.