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St Mary of Egypt

Gee DGee D Shipmate
edited April 2023 in Ecclesiantics
In a quiet moment, I watched a You Tube with a procession in honour of St Mary of Egypt. Those in the procession seemed to be Africans, with the procession ending at a monastery of the Saint. The dioceses of the various bishops looked to be African. The singing was Kyrie Eleison, that is, in Greek. I'd have expected Ethiopian or another African language. Do any on board have any thoughts? The link is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SraZsBLkek[/url]

Comments

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited April 2023
    A kind host - are you able to fix the link please?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    According to the text with the video the event took place in Uganda. The music is obviously not from the actual procession.

    A little searching reveals that there is a Ugandan Orthodox Church with a website at www[.]ugandaorthodoxchurch[.]co[.]ug I’ve ‘obscured’ the web address because my browser is giving security warnings about it. If you do choose to visit it, it indicates quite an active Greek Orthodox community tracing its origins in Uganda back to 1929.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thanks for all that information. For safety, I'll keep clear of the site you mention..

    You say that the music is "obviously" not from the procession. Wondering what leads you to that statement.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Gee D wrote: »

    You say that the music is "obviously" not from the procession. Wondering what leads you to that statement.

    The echo suggests it was recorded indoors yet the procession is outdoors. The film jumps to different “scenes” but the music remains uninterrupted. The bit showing brass instruments, drums, cymbals etc bears no relation whatsoever to the music being played.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    What Spike said.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    edited April 2023
    The Kyrie eleison you can hear is Gregorian chant from the Roman Catholic church. I can't imagine that Orthodox would be singing something Roman.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited April 2023
    Thank you both for your comments. I assumed that the Ugandan church had somehow picked up the Kyrie from a Greek rite and also assumed that the Greek happened to share at least this part of the liturgy with the Latin church.
  • Orthodox ,of course,share the words Kyrie eleison with the Latin church,but not that particular chant.
    We should really put it the other way round,in as much as the Latin Church has for all intents and purposes retained only the Kyrie from the Greek rite.
    there used to be some other words of Greek used in the Latin Church's Good Friday liturgy but these have disappeared with the use of the vernacular.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited April 2023
    Forthview wrote: »
    Orthodox ,of course,share the words Kyrie eleison with the Latin church,but not that particular chant.
    We should really put it the other way round, in as much as the Latin Church has for all intents and purposes retained only the Kyrie from the Greek rite.
    there used to be some other words of Greek used in the Latin Church's Good Friday liturgy but these have disappeared with the use of the vernacular.

    Yes, it's a real oddity in the manner the Kyrie remains from a much earlier time. Thanks for that snippet about the Good Friday liturgy.


  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Going over this while I was having my shower (a good and time-honoured occasion to think) my mistake was thinking of the Ugandan Church as similar to the Ethiopian and Coptic Churches, with its own history stretching back to the earliest days rather than the colonial import you're describing.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Yes. My first thought was that I was seeing the Ethiopian church, until I read more of the text.
  • The Orthodox Church in Uganda is part of the Patriarchate of Alexandria.

    Interesting to see all three Bishops of the different diocesses in Uganda in the procession.

    Sound track definitely from a Western source - mispronunciation of "eleison" with a "z" instead of an "s".
  • Sicut CervusSicut Cervus Shipmate Posts: 43
    The other Greek chant which was used on Good Friday in the west is the Trisagion, Holy God, holy mighty... it was sung in Greek and echoed in Latin, there is a fine setting by Victoria. St Mary of Egypt has a memorial on one of the sundays of Lent in the Orthodox Church, and her life is read out at the midweek compline service of that week. The trisagion is sung at every orthodox liturgy and most other services too, including being the recessional at funerals. Thanks for raising this interesting subject relating to eastern and western churches. Kyrie eleison , Gospodi pomiluy in Slavonic, is , of course, the response to the Litanies.
  • I noticed this today ,Good Friday ,at the Veneration of the Cross in Salzburg cathedral that the Trisagion was sung still in Greek but the former Latin was sung in German
    Hagios o Theos Hagios Ischyros Hagios Athanatos eleison hymas (transcribed into Roman script)
    The Archbishop,unusually wearing his Franciscan habit,removed his shoes before venerating the Cross.
  • Sicut CervusSicut Cervus Shipmate Posts: 43
    Are you in Salzburg, or watching online? Removing the shoes is the traditional rubric for venerating the cross. I am glad to see that somewhere is preserving the Trisagion. On Good Friday it is part of the Improperium (My people, my people, what have I done to you), which are Christ's reproaches. A very powerful part of the ceremonies.
    Interesting that the archbishop is from an order. Is it my imagination, or are there rather more RC bishops being chosen from religious orders than in the past? There certainly are here in Oz. (sorry, this is a tangent from the original discussion)
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    The Kyrie eleison you can hear is Gregorian chant from the Roman Catholic church. I can't imagine that Orthodox would be singing something Roman.

    Why would that be?

    Gregorian chant is not specific to the Roman Catholic church.

    The Roman rite is in use in the Orthodox Church as it was before the Schism, and as are other Western rites in which Gregorian chant is used. The particular Orthodox Christians in the video are clearly Byzantine rite so yes, it is unlikely that they would be singing the Kyrie Orbis Factor. However, that is not because they are Orthodox but because they are Byzantine.
    Forthview wrote: »
    Orthodox ,of course,share the words Kyrie eleison with the Latin church,but not that particular chant.

    Only, we do have that particular chant.
  • Thanks,Cyprian,I stand corrected. I have never heard Kyrie eleison sung to that chant in an Orthodox church,though once again I have never been to a Western rite Orthodox church.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    I apologise to you both. Last night's reply was grumpier than necessary.

    I come across the Orthodox=Byzantine assumption quite often, and perhaps I'm a little hypersensitive to it, belonging as I do to part of the Orthodox Church that it erases, albeit I'm sure unintentionally.
  • No need to apologise,Cyprian and I understand your sensitivity.
    The other way round there are huge numbers of Western Catholics who are quite unaware of the other rites which see the Bishop of Rome as their spiritual leader..
    I have attended fairly often the Ukrainian Byzantine rite Catholic liturgy but only when I visit my son in the Arab Emirates do I have the opportunity to attend the rites of Middle Eastern Catholics and subAsian Catholics.
    Interestingly enough, at least for me, at the specific request of the pope, there is only one bishop who is responsible for all the Catholics of whatever rite.
    It goes without saying ,I suppose, that the Vicar Apostolic is himself of the Roman rite,but he is also the bishop for the Armenian,Chaldean,Coptic,Ethiopian,Maronite,Melkite, Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar rites as well as the Byzantine rite Catholics,mainly from Eastern Europe
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Pope John Paul II and the present pope have celebrated using the Byzantine Rite. There are YouTube clips. Both popes in Roman vestments looking a bit plain among his Eastern Rite brother bishops.
    Apologies to Cyprian. I was thinking specifically of Greek Orthodox who can be a bit anti-Roman since the crusades.
  • Forthview wrote: »
    No need to apologise,Cyprian and I understand your sensitivity.
    The other way round there are huge numbers of Western Catholics who are quite unaware of the other rites which see the Bishop of Rome as their spiritual leader..
    I have attended fairly often the Ukrainian Byzantine rite Catholic liturgy but only when I visit my son in the Arab Emirates do I have the opportunity to attend the rites of Middle Eastern Catholics and subAsian Catholics.
    Interestingly enough, at least for me, at the specific request of the pope, there is only one bishop who is responsible for all the Catholics of whatever rite.
    It goes without saying ,I suppose, that the Vicar Apostolic is himself of the Roman rite,but he is also the bishop for the Armenian,Chaldean,Coptic,Ethiopian,Maronite,Melkite, Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar rites as well as the Byzantine rite Catholics,mainly from Eastern Europe

    A friend who once worked on the diplomatic files of several of the Emirates tells me that this is likely because the local authorities prefer one-stop shopping for ecclesiastical matters. She said that they would really prefer one interlocutor for all Christians and that, some years ago when they decided to allow open Christian observance for expatriates, it was only after interventions from the Antiochian Orthodox that they relented. Any concession is still greatly disapproved of by some more extreme elements.
  • I think that this varies from Emirate to Emirate.Cartainly in the Emirate of Abu Dhabi there are many Christian groups who constitute about 9 to 10% of the resident population.(Obviously not 10% of the local Emirati citizens !)
    There are over 40 church buildings in the Emirates and groups include Armenians,Copts,Evangelicals,Orthodox with the largest group being Roman Catholics due to the large number of Catholics from the Philippines and Kerala.Catholic services have been held there since 1960.
    I should mention also the small but influential St Andrew's Anglican church which is at the terminus of one of the bus routes in Abu Dhabi with the name of the terminus being St Andrew's church.
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Pope John Paul II and the present pope have celebrated using the Byzantine Rite. There are YouTube clips. Both popes in Roman vestments looking a bit plain among his Eastern Rite brother bishops.
    Apologies to Cyprian. I was thinking specifically of Greek Orthodox who can be a bit anti-Roman since the crusades.

    'A bit'?

    😉

    Some Greeks can be as anti-Roman as the most vociferous Paisleyite Protestant.

    On the presence of Greek Orthodox in East African countries such as Uganda and Kenya, I've heard that some Africans preferred to ally themselves with the Greeks rather than with Anglicanism which they associated with colonialism.

    The Greeks didn't colonise East Africa, other European nations did.

    Of course, one could argue that Greek traders and settlers might not have been there in the first place had it not been for Western European colonialism.

    By all accounts Archbishop Makarios of Cyprus received a hero's welcome in Kenya where he was lauded for standing up against British colonialism.
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