Coverdale's Translation of the Roman Canon

DonaJoannaDonaJoanna Shipmate Posts: 2
Might anyone please have a link or the text itself?

Comments

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  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    edited April 23
    I have something of a fascination with the diptychs as they are prayed in different rites, and I must say that, while I find the execution of them in my own rite (Gallican) to be beautiful, there is something quite sublime about the diptychs in the Roman Canon.

    Such expressions of "sealed with the seal of faith, and who sleep the sleep of peace" and "for the redemption of their souls, for the hope of their salvation and safety; and who offer their prayers unto thee, the eternal God, the living and the true" are a gift.

    I actually received a blessing from my bishop to celebrate according to the Roman rite on the 3rd Sunday of Lent, as it fell this year on the feast of St Gregory the Great, but I was unable to prepare the music, booklets, or servers in good time.

    We wouldn't have used the Coverdale translation because our custom is to use contemporary language but for places that use older forms of English, it is difficult to imagine a better rendering.
  • DonaJoannaDonaJoanna Shipmate Posts: 2

    That's perfect, Thank you so much, Jo
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I've not heard of this before but is it genuine? There are things that are distinctly puzzling.

    Was it done by Coverdale or by someone else in an imitation of the style of either Coverdale or one of the two Edwardian prayer books? What is it a translation of? And when? Coverdale died in his early eighties in 1569. By then he was in failing health. The Tridentine Mass wasn't finally promulgated until the next year, 1570 and was never promulgated in England.

    Coverdale was also a committed reformer from the end of the 1520s and briefly Bishop of Exeter in the reign of Edward VI.

    So, if it does derive from him, is it a translation of whatever was in use in Exeter before the 1549 BCP was promulgated, of whatever was used in Rome about the same time, something Coverdale would have been unlikely to have experienced, some sort of draft that might have been being aired at the Council of Trent sometime around 1560, or what?

    Remember, Coverdale was a committed reformer.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Was it done by Coverdale or by someone else in an imitation of the style of either Coverdale or one of the two Edwardian prayer books? What is it a translation of? And when? Coverdale died in his early eighties in 1569. By then he was in failing health. The Tridentine Mass wasn't finally promulgated until the next year, 1570 and was never promulgated in England.

    I think I'd say "prayer books issued in the reign of Edward VI" - Edwardian has connotations very far removed from prayer books.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    I think I'd say "prayer books issued in the reign of Edward VI" - Edwardian has connotations very far removed from prayer books.
    Not in that context, it hasn't and context is everything

  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    I have no idea as to whether the Coverdale translation of the Roman Canon is genuine or not. What I can say is that the Roman Canon was used all over Europe even before the promulgation of the Tridentine Mass in 1570. It was more the Liturgy of the Word which varied over regions and the use of Psalms in divine worship. The very heart of the divine Liturgy/Mass was the Roman Canon and it is certainly likely that Coverdale would know it in detail,especially if he was born around 1490.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've not heard of this before but is it genuine? There are things that are distinctly puzzling.

    Was it done by Coverdale or by someone else in an imitation of the style of either Coverdale or one of the two Edwardian prayer books? What is it a translation of? And when? Coverdale died in his early eighties in 1569. By then he was in failing health. The Tridentine Mass wasn't finally promulgated until the next year, 1570 and was never promulgated in England.

    Coverdale was also a committed reformer from the end of the 1520s and briefly Bishop of Exeter in the reign of Edward VI.

    So, if it does derive from him, is it a translation of whatever was in use in Exeter before the 1549 BCP was promulgated, of whatever was used in Rome about the same time, something Coverdale would have been unlikely to have experienced, some sort of draft that might have been being aired at the Council of Trent sometime around 1560, or what?

    Remember, Coverdale was a committed reformer.
    That’s sent me down such a rabbit hole, leading to the answer “I don’t know.” There’s a 1967 article in the Catholic Herald (not viewable on my iPhone, only on my laptop) which refers to it. The texts in print maybe one of the texts from Anglican Missal.
  • Cyprian wrote: »
    I have something of a fascination with the diptychs as they are prayed in different rites, and I must say that, while I find the execution of them in my own rite (Gallican) to be beautiful, there is something quite sublime about the diptychs in the Roman Canon.

    Such expressions of "sealed with the seal of faith, and who sleep the sleep of peace" and "for the redemption of their souls, for the hope of their salvation and safety; and who offer their prayers unto thee, the eternal God, the living and the true" are a gift.

    I actually received a blessing from my bishop to celebrate according to the Roman rite on the 3rd Sunday of Lent, as it fell this year on the feast of St Gregory the Great, but I was unable to prepare the music, booklets, or servers in good time.

    We wouldn't have used the Coverdale translation because our custom is to use contemporary language but for places that use older forms of English, it is difficult to imagine a better rendering.

    This is a bit of a tangent, but, if you and your bishop are Orthodox, is the version of the Roman Canon that you would use if you celebrated the Roman Rite altered in order to provide an Epiclesis more aligned with what Orthodox Eucharistic theology requires?
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Cyprian wrote: »
    I have something of a fascination with the diptychs as they are prayed in different rites, and I must say that, while I find the execution of them in my own rite (Gallican) to be beautiful, there is something quite sublime about the diptychs in the Roman Canon.

    Such expressions of "sealed with the seal of faith, and who sleep the sleep of peace" and "for the redemption of their souls, for the hope of their salvation and safety; and who offer their prayers unto thee, the eternal God, the living and the true" are a gift.

    I actually received a blessing from my bishop to celebrate according to the Roman rite on the 3rd Sunday of Lent, as it fell this year on the feast of St Gregory the Great, but I was unable to prepare the music, booklets, or servers in good time.

    We wouldn't have used the Coverdale translation because our custom is to use contemporary language but for places that use older forms of English, it is difficult to imagine a better rendering.

    This is a bit of a tangent, but, if you and your bishop are Orthodox, is the version of the Roman Canon that you would use if you celebrated the Roman Rite altered in order to provide an Epiclesis more aligned with what Orthodox Eucharistic theology requires?

    Being Western Orthodox rather than simply Western Rite within an Eastern Orthodox church, we aren't held bound by some the unusual insistences of the Eastern Orthodox hierarchies. One of them is that the Roman Canon as used in our communities that celebrate the Gregorian Liturgy regularly (mainly in North America) does not have a Byzantine or Gothic epiclesis inserted into it.

    My understanding is that it is indeed the action of the Holy Spirit that consecrates the Holy Gifts but that the Roman Canon is of such antiquity that it took form before it became customary to express this doctrinal reality liturgically. In this form it was used prior to the Schism by countless saints with no question of its authenticity as a legitimate anaphora, and there doesn't appear to be any good reason to go tampering with it today.
  • This discussion makes me wonder whence arose the explicit epiclesis that is the hallmark of the Scottish Communion Rite. Was it in (say) the use of Aberdeen prior to the reformation or was it a peculiarity of the post-reformation Scottish bishops?
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    The Assyrian Church of the East uses a eucharistic prayer (of Addai and Mari) with no words of institution. The Uniate churches insert words of institution despite the Vatican recognising the validity of the original version.
  • Robertus LRobertus L Shipmate
    Seems unlikely to be genuine give that Joseph's name was only added to the Roman Canon in 1963 on the orders of John XXIII. Of course it's possible that it is by Coverdale and someone else inserted Joseph there later
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    edited April 30
    Deleted
  • FCBFCB Shipmate Posts: 6
    I remember reading/being told years ago that he translated it as part of a critique of it (presumably the idea was that if people could read it they would see how absurd and wicked it was). But I have no idea where I came across this factoid, so use at your own risk.
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