Hey British peoples. A Brit person speaking of a photograph of two men said, "Look your jumpers." I know what jumpers are. What does that locution mean? Look at? I like the look of? Wot?
Hey British peoples. A Brit person speaking of a photograph of two men said, "Look your jumpers." I know what jumpers are. What does that locution mean? Look at? I like the look of? Wot?
Doesn't mean anything to me. Did you mishear?
Unless the intonation was "look! Your jumpers!" implying the addressee possessed identical knitwear.
The word "jumper" when used to mean a sweater comes from an obsolete term for a large, loose men's jacket called a jump. ... The terminology can be confusing because a jumper is also a sleeveless dress worn over a shirt or a one-piece article of clothing for a small child in both British and American English.
The word "jumper" when used to mean a sweater comes from an obsolete term for a large, loose men's jacket called a jump. ... The terminology can be confusing because a jumper is also a sleeveless dress worn over a shirt or a one-piece article of clothing for a small child in both British and American English.
The question wasn't about the word "jumpers". Mousethief explicitly said that. It was about what on earth "Look your jumpers" meant.
Probably a derogatory comment, as in “imagine wearing jumpers like these!” Though, and the context might tell, it could be admiration. “Look at your jumpers, [how stylish].” Or maybe they were full of holes or were Christmas jumpers of the worst kind.
Someone earlier said that in the UK a jumper was a knitted garment for a small child. In my experience there is no age restriction; at this time of year I'm often wearing a jumper.
What has English dispensed with? "Look you"? We've just dropped off the "you" -- it's hardly a loss of an idiom.
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
EDIT: Also, I don't think you could modernise Hamlet's sentence just by dropping the word "you". Having "look" at the end there feels very weird. You need to put the "look" command at the front. Look at this most excellent canopy, the air.
Of course, English has also stupidly lost the ability to distinguish singular "you" and plural "you".
The "Sie" reminded me. Because German, Danish and English (and probably all the Germanic languages?) all had the same idea of using a plural word to be polite to an individual.
German still does this. Danes seemed to have stopped bothering a couple of generations ago and are informal with everyone. And English got stuck perpetually in formal mode a few centuries ago.
Of course, English has also stupidly lost the ability to distinguish singular "you" and plural "you".
The "Sie" reminded me. Because German, Danish and English (and probably all the Germanic languages?) all had the same idea of using a plural word to be polite to an individual.
German still does this. Danes seemed to have stopped bothering a couple of generations ago and are informal with everyone. And English got stuck perpetually in formal mode a few centuries ago.
Then English, perversely, wrongly decided the singular form was the polite form, and ended up creating Bible (and service) translations which use "thou" for God and "you" for everybody else.
I knew nothing of any Welsh reference or stereotype. I was only referring to a phrase from the Bard. And my made-up king wasn't of any particular nationality, ethnicity, nor realm. Just a grumpy king, possibly with a headache, who was of a time to use "look you" to get the attention of an annoying, dancing crowd.
Of course, English has also stupidly lost the ability to distinguish singular "you" and plural "you".
The "Sie" reminded me. Because German, Danish and English (and probably all the Germanic languages?) all had the same idea of using a plural word to be polite to an individual.
German still does this. Danes seemed to have stopped bothering a couple of generations ago and are informal with everyone. And English got stuck perpetually in formal mode a few centuries ago.
Then English, perversely, wrongly decided the singular form was the polite form, and ended up creating Bible (and service) translations which use "thou" for God and "you" for everybody else.
Hamlet is well known as a Celtic miscellany. There is the Irishman who accompanies the prince on his abortive attempt to kill the king. In distress of mind Hamlet comments, "I could do it now, Pat, while he is praying".
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
I can only presume that's poetry because it's frankly incomprehensible.
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
I can only presume that's poetry because it's frankly incomprehensible.
Of course, English has also stupidly lost the ability to distinguish singular "you" and plural "you".
The "Sie" reminded me. Because German, Danish and English (and probably all the Germanic languages?) all had the same idea of using a plural word to be polite to an individual.
German still does this. Danes seemed to have stopped bothering a couple of generations ago and are informal with everyone. And English got stuck perpetually in formal mode a few centuries ago.
Then English, perversely, wrongly decided the singular form was the polite form, and ended up creating Bible (and service) translations which use "thou" for God and "you" for everybody else.
Not quite.
Most modern western European languages, only use the 2nd personal singular for addressing close family etc in some way. French does. I'm told Welsh does. Early modern English, as in the seventeenth century did. 'Thou' when it was still in general use, rather than only found in dialects, was used much the same way as 'tu' or 'du'. They are, though, equally likely to use the 2nd person singular for addressing God. This is not something that was new with English bible translations.
Why, I don't know.
However, in koiné Greek this doesn't appear to have been the case. It seems to use the 2nd person singular for addressing one person, whether an equal, an inferior, a superior or God, and the 2nd person plural for addressing more than one person.
I don't know whether colloquial late Latin followed koiné or was more like subsequent western European languages. Can anyone oblige?
I've heard, but this may have been a joke, that in some parts of the US Southern States, it is more respectful to address a single important person, a state governor, say, as 'yall'.
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
I can only presume that's poetry because it's frankly incomprehensible.
Very beautiful poetry and not, I would have said, that hard to understand: "Can you, with your young fresh thoughts, care as much about leaves as you do about human beings?" (Now some Hopkins really is tricky!)
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
I can only presume that's poetry because it's frankly incomprehensible.
Very beautiful poetry and not, I would have said, that hard to understand: "Can you, with your young fresh thoughts, care as much about leaves as you do about human beings?" (Now some Hopkins really is tricky!)
It foxed me. I didn't link "can you" with "care" at all.
Re: thou/you for close family - on the island of Westray in Orkney, where my grandmother came from, some people still address one another as "thou" - pronounced "thoo": "Tommy, would thou pass the salt?".
I'm inclined to think it's a throwback from Norse/Scandinavian languages, as in đu in Icelandic, but I'm open to correction.
Re: thou/you for close family - on the island of Westray in Orkney, where my grandmother came from, some people still address one another as "thou" - pronounced "thoo": "Tommy, would thou pass the salt?".
I'm inclined to think it's a throwback from Norse/Scandinavian languages, as in đu in Icelandic, but I'm open to correction.
Could be, but doesn't need to be. That's almost OK as seventeenth century English, when it would have been 'wouldst thou'. In dialect further south and more recent, 'wǝdsta pass ǝt salt'.
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
I can only presume that's poetry because it's frankly incomprehensible.
Very beautiful poetry and not, I would have said, that hard to understand: "Can you, with your young fresh thoughts, care as much about leaves as you do about human beings?" (Now some Hopkins really is tricky!)
Most modern western European languages, only use the 2nd personal singular for addressing close family etc in some way. French does. I'm told Welsh does. Early modern English, as in the seventeenth century did. 'Thou' when it was still in general use, rather than only found in dialects, was used much the same way as 'tu' or 'du'. They are, though, equally likely to use the 2nd person singular for addressing God. This is not something that was new with English bible translations.
Why, I don't know.
The issue is why "thou" fell away in every other case except the case of God. As far as I know the first Bible translation to reflect this is the RSV, which was published in 1952. I am open to correction on that (the usage, not the year).
Re: thou/you for close family - on the island of Westray in Orkney, where my grandmother came from, some people still address one another as "thou" - pronounced "thoo": "Tommy, would thou pass the salt?".
I'm inclined to think it's a throwback from Norse/Scandinavian languages, as in đu in Icelandic, but I'm open to correction.
The form is the same in Old Norse and Old English so it comes from both.
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
I can only presume that's poetry because it's frankly incomprehensible.
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
I can only presume that's poetry because it's frankly incomprehensible.
Very beautiful poetry and not, I would have said, that hard to understand: "Can you, with your young fresh thoughts, care as much about leaves as you do about human beings?" (Now some Hopkins really is tricky!)
I'd have thought the other way around - can you care for people as much as you are now grieving the fallen leaves and the bare forest?
Comments
Doesn't mean anything to me. Did you mishear?
Unless the intonation was "look! Your jumpers!" implying the addressee possessed identical knitwear.
Weird. Makes no more sense to me than it does to you.
The word "jumper" when used to mean a sweater comes from an obsolete term for a large, loose men's jacket called a jump. ... The terminology can be confusing because a jumper is also a sleeveless dress worn over a shirt or a one-piece article of clothing for a small child in both British and American English.
That would be a jumpsuit in my experience of British English.
The question wasn't about the word "jumpers". Mousethief explicitly said that. It was about what on earth "Look your jumpers" meant.
To which none of us have any idea.
The Leaping Nuns of Norwich
Someone earlier said that in the UK a jumper was a knitted garment for a small child. In my experience there is no age restriction; at this time of year I'm often wearing a jumper.
King {rising from throne and bellowing}: "Look you, jumpers! Stop thy dancing whilst I speak! Particularly you, Jester, with thine bells!"
Welsh King, is he then?
He wasn't the first: it was a playground chant when I was a child.
Which bit of that signals Welsh, please?
I think now I remember reading that.
MMM
It was a jump-rope rhyme.
No, he was reflecting a sentence construction that's common in a lot of European languages but that English has dispensed with.
Hamlet is of course Danish and I'm pretty sure you could say this in Danish.
Yes I know. I'm just pointing out that lots of languages (probably including Welsh but not exclusively) have the "you", in order to identify who is supposed to be doing the looking. We've decided there's no need.
EDIT: Also, I don't think you could modernise Hamlet's sentence just by dropping the word "you". Having "look" at the end there feels very weird. You need to put the "look" command at the front. Look at this most excellent canopy, the air.
*look you
The "Sie" reminded me. Because German, Danish and English (and probably all the Germanic languages?) all had the same idea of using a plural word to be polite to an individual.
German still does this. Danes seemed to have stopped bothering a couple of generations ago and are informal with everyone. And English got stuck perpetually in formal mode a few centuries ago.
Then English, perversely, wrongly decided the singular form was the polite form, and ended up creating Bible (and service) translations which use "thou" for God and "you" for everybody else.
I knew nothing of any Welsh reference or stereotype. I was only referring to a phrase from the Bard. And my made-up king wasn't of any particular nationality, ethnicity, nor realm. Just a grumpy king, possibly with a headache, who was of a time to use "look you" to get the attention of an annoying, dancing crowd.
Yup.
Or leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
I can only presume that's poetry because it's frankly incomprehensible.
A singularly poignant one at that. Though it has to be said that Hopkins is on a fairly far out branch of anyone's linguistic tree.
Most modern western European languages, only use the 2nd personal singular for addressing close family etc in some way. French does. I'm told Welsh does. Early modern English, as in the seventeenth century did. 'Thou' when it was still in general use, rather than only found in dialects, was used much the same way as 'tu' or 'du'. They are, though, equally likely to use the 2nd person singular for addressing God. This is not something that was new with English bible translations.
Why, I don't know.
However, in koiné Greek this doesn't appear to have been the case. It seems to use the 2nd person singular for addressing one person, whether an equal, an inferior, a superior or God, and the 2nd person plural for addressing more than one person.
I don't know whether colloquial late Latin followed koiné or was more like subsequent western European languages. Can anyone oblige?
I've heard, but this may have been a joke, that in some parts of the US Southern States, it is more respectful to address a single important person, a state governor, say, as 'yall'.
Very beautiful poetry and not, I would have said, that hard to understand: "Can you, with your young fresh thoughts, care as much about leaves as you do about human beings?" (Now some Hopkins really is tricky!)
It foxed me. I didn't link "can you" with "care" at all.
I'm inclined to think it's a throwback from Norse/Scandinavian languages, as in đu in Icelandic, but I'm open to correction.
It's downright fucking Yoda.
The issue is why "thou" fell away in every other case except the case of God. As far as I know the first Bible translation to reflect this is the RSV, which was published in 1952. I am open to correction on that (the usage, not the year).
The form is the same in Old Norse and Old English so it comes from both.
Very poignant and a great poem overall. That word "wanwood" is an invention by Hopkins but it carries meaning and emotion by the tonne.
I'd have thought the other way around - can you care for people as much as you are now grieving the fallen leaves and the bare forest?