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Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • KarlLB wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    mt--
    mousethief wrote: »

    Doubtless their friends and neighbors mocked them with the Latin equivalent of "Blueberry's what?"

    Huh???

    Thinking of the grocers (grocer's? grocers'?) apostrophe. People probably made analogous errors in Latin.

    There are extant lists of pet peeves from the time.

    Sweet vindication!
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    mt--
    mousethief wrote: »

    Doubtless their friends and neighbors mocked them with the Latin equivalent of "Blueberry's what?"

    Huh???

    Thinking of the grocers (grocer's? grocers'?) apostrophe. People probably made analogous errors in Latin.

    Well it depends how many grocers are involved, but there seem to be fewer grocers these days. I would say the grocer's shop, but in a much bigger town I could probably say the grocers' shops.
  • From Wikipedia:
    Though most English varieties in England are non-rhotic today... rhotic accents are still found in the West Country...  the Corby area, some of Lancashire (north and west of the centre of Manchester), some parts of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, and in the areas that border Scotland. The prestige form, however, exerts a steady pressure toward non-rhoticity. Thus the urban speech of Bristol or Southampton is more accurately described as variably rhotic, the degree of rhoticity being reduced as one moves up the class and formality scales.
    I grew up in a rhotic part of Lancashire, though I've lost the rhoticity now. Accents are constantly shifting though and it wouldn't surprise me if the regional accent has lost its r by now.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    When D. was conducting the bit of the Psalms about a "ramping and a roaring lion"* he used to tell the choir to "roll your 'r's, and don't leave it all to Piglet", the assumption being that as I'm Scottish, it comes naturally to me.

    He said the effect he was after was "in the manner of a mildly peeved Glaswegian". :mrgreen:

    * he even typed it out in the copy as "rrramping and rrroaring"
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Thinking of the grocers (grocer's? grocers'?) apostrophe. People probably made analogous errors in Latin.

    People called Romanes, they go the house?

  • mousethief wrote: »
    Thinking of the grocers (grocer's? grocers'?) apostrophe. People probably made analogous errors in Latin.

    People called Romanes, they go the house?

    😆
  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host
    Regarding "fall" -- as a Canadian, I had no idea that it wasn't used in the UK as a synonym for "autumn" until a UK reader (a Shipmate, in fact!) was kindly reading some chapters of my manuscript set in the UK and corrected my usage. Although as the relevant passages were set in the early 17th century, it might not have completely fallen out of use in British English then ... but I corrected all references to "fall" to make it say "autumn" instead, just to be sure!

    However, I don't think Hopkins would have needed to refer to the season as "fall" for the Fall/fall play on words to work in the poem -- even if he didn't call autumn "fall," or know anyone who did, he's comparing the fall of the leaves (in autumn) to the Fall of man in Eden, so the fall/Fall pun still works regardless what word you use for the season.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Thinking of the grocers (grocer's? grocers'?) apostrophe. People probably made analogous errors in Latin.

    People called Romanes, they go the house?

    I give you this, in Latin, with corrected grammar!
  • Pendragon wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Thinking of the grocers (grocer's? grocers'?) apostrophe. People probably made analogous errors in Latin.

    People called Romanes, they go the house?

    I give you this, in Latin, with corrected grammar!

    It's wrong. Romans is Romani, not Romanii.
  • Alas the hoarding is no longer there to correct further. It was around the old site of the Minster school in Southwell.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    So I knew Australian English was thoroughly non-rhotic.

    But just now I was reading the Wikipedia article on it, and it talked about how an "r" sound would magically appear before a vowel such as pronouncing "law and order" as "law-r-and order". And I said it out loud, and holy hell I heard it. Scary.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    So I knew Australian English was thoroughly non-rhotic.

    But just now I was reading the Wikipedia article on it, and it talked about how an "r" sound would magically appear before a vowel such as pronouncing "law and order" as "law-r-and order". And I said it out loud, and holy hell I heard it. Scary.

    Law and order is non rhotic for me. maybe it depends on where in Australia you live. After all, people in Melbourne can't say the short e sound as in egg - it sounds like agg, and they pronounce Melbourne as Malbourne.
  • Here in Northwestia, we say it almost as lawn order, with the vowel of the first word stretched a bit.
  • In looking for a word to describe what a river does, I looked up "wend vs wind" and found this astonishing (to me) statement:

    In these parts, neither the verb nor the noun "wind" is homophonic with "wend". Are they homophones where you live?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited February 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    So I knew Australian English was thoroughly non-rhotic.

    But just now I was reading the Wikipedia article on it, and it talked about how an "r" sound would magically appear before a vowel such as pronouncing "law and order" as "law-r-and order". And I said it out loud, and holy hell I heard it. Scary.

    Miss Laura Norder, to you.

    And mousethief, no, very different pronunciations here to reflect the different vowel
  • Might possibly be in New Zealand?
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    rhubarb wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    So I knew Australian English was thoroughly non-rhotic.

    But just now I was reading the Wikipedia article on it, and it talked about how an "r" sound would magically appear before a vowel such as pronouncing "law and order" as "law-r-and order". And I said it out loud, and holy hell I heard it. Scary.

    Law and order is non rhotic for me. maybe it depends on where in Australia you live. After all, people in Melbourne can't say the short e sound as in egg - it sounds like agg, and they pronounce Melbourne as Malbourne.

    Well for me if I say it quickly it very much becomes "Lore and order". Or more realistically "law rand order".
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    mousethief wrote: »
    In looking for a word to describe what a river does, I looked up "wend vs wind" and found this astonishing (to me) statement:

    In these parts, neither the verb nor the noun "wind" is homophonic with "wend". Are they homophones where you live?

    I can think of two different ways of pronouncing "wind" and neither is the same as "wend".
  • mousethief wrote: »
    In these parts, neither the verb nor the noun "wind" is homophonic with "wend". Are they homophones where you live?
    No. (American South)

    “Tin” and “ten,” or “pin” and “pen” on the other hand . . . .


  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Might possibly be in New Zealand?

    Yes, New Zealand was my thought for wind/wend.

    I played rugby many years ago with a Kiwi, who after particularly robust tackles would complain of being 'wended'
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    England normal pronunciations.
    'Wind' the thing that blows rhymes with 'sinned'.
    'Wind' what you do to a clock rhymes with 'find'.
    'Wend' what you do when you wend your way, rhymes with 'send'.
    Those are not homophones. Nor, here are 'tin' and 'ten' or 'pin' and 'pen'.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Robertus L wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Might possibly be in New Zealand?

    Yes, New Zealand was my thought for wind/wend.

    I played rugby many years ago with a Kiwi, who after particularly robust tackles would complain of being 'wended'

    A tamer vocabulary than many NZ rugby players - or just plain many rugby players.
  • I can think of two different ways of pronouncing "wind" and neither is the same as "wend".

    I'm wondering if they sound the same in South African.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    England normal pronunciations.
    'Wind' the thing that blows rhymes with 'sinned'.
    'Wind' what you do to a clock rhymes with 'find'.
    'Wend' what you do when you wend your way, rhymes with 'send'.
    Those are not homophones. Nor, here are 'tin' and 'ten' or 'pin' and 'pen'.

    Ditto for this part of the US.
  • My NZ neighbours pronounce the two similarly. I remember them asking where Bar Im was, and after a few days, I realized they meant Bar M, a local pub.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    *Lots* of nations separated by a common language.
  • Regional dialects even in the United States can be interesting. I remember when my wife and I moved to Mississippi, the first place we stopped at was a Sears store in Tupelo. We could hardly understand the clerk that was assisting us.

    While we were in Mississippi our daughter learned to speak as a Mississippian. I remember when she was about to do something, she would say, "I'm a fixin to..."

    As a preacher, there, I got to appreciate some of the congregational responses. If people were saying "Amen," you knew they were following you. If someone says, "Preach it" you were hitting it out of the park--at least as far as that individual was thinking. But if you heard, "Help him, Jesus," you knew you were in the grass.

    The dreaded curse in Mississippi, BTW, is "Bless, you, child."
  • That was great, Gramps! Just passed it on to a number of reverend and other friends. "Bless you, child" - I'll remember that.
  • That was great, Gramps! Just passed it on to a number of reverend and other friends. "Bless you, child" - I'll remember that.

    "Bless his/her heart" is also used when saying something negative about someone, e.g., "He has the brain of a fruitfly, bless his heart." It somehow softens the insult, I suppose.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    edited February 2020
    But "bless your heart" (here*, anyway) is usually said in praise or gratitude for something you've done - like a sort of intensifier of "thank you".

    * "Here" is still Canada - until next week ... :)
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited February 2020
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    That was great, Gramps! Just passed it on to a number of reverend and other friends. "Bless you, child" - I'll remember that.

    "Bless his/her heart" is also used when saying something negative about someone, e.g., "He has the brain of a fruitfly, bless his heart." It somehow softens the insult, I suppose.
    Piglet wrote: »
    But "bless your heart" (here*, anyway) is usually said in praise or gratitude for something you've done - like a sort of intensifier of "thank you".

    * "Here" is still Canada - until next week ... :)
    In the American South, “Bless your [his/her] heart” and variations like “Bless you, child” have a wide range of meanings that generally depend on context to interpret—who is saying it, to or about whom it’s being said, tone of voice, what it’s being said in response to, etc.

    Either can be used sincerely, and often are. They can, for example and as noted, be a way of saying “thank you,” with the sense of “you are just the nicest, most thoughtful person I think I have ever met.” “Bless your/his/her heart” in particular can be an expression of empathy or sympathy; for example, when said in response to hearing about the misfortunes, major or minor, of another, it’s sort of a verbal “you poor thing, lemme give you a hug.”

    But either can also have a strong sarcastic or passive-aggressive undertone, which carries a meaning along the lines of “you are one pitiful excuse for a human being” or “you don’t have the sense God gave a goose.” There may be an implied “but we love you/him/her anyway,” or the implication may be “and you/he/she can rot in Hell for all I care.”

    It all depends on context, but there usually isn’t any question as to exactly what is meant.

  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Hitting it out of the park? In the grass? Now I'm really confused!
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    edited February 2020
    RA--

    Both baseball references. When a batter hits the baseball out of the ballpark, it's a big deal. The other team won't have a chance to get it and use it to tag out anyone running from base to base. IIRC, all the runners can safely run to home base.

    IOW, the term means someone did a really good job.

    ETA: I'll let someone else explain the other one.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Regional dialects even in the United States can be interesting. I remember when my wife and I moved to Mississippi, the first place we stopped at was a Sears store in Tupelo. We could hardly understand the clerk that was assisting us.

    While we were in Mississippi our daughter learned to speak as a Mississippian. I remember when she was about to do something, she would say, "I'm a fixin to..."

    As a preacher, there, I got to appreciate some of the congregational responses. If people were saying "Amen," you knew they were following you. If someone says, "Preach it" you were hitting it out of the park--at least as far as that individual was thinking. But if you heard, "Help him, Jesus," you knew you were in the grass.

    The dreaded curse in Mississippi, BTW, is "Bless, you, child."

    People calling out (or even muttering to themselves) during sermons give me the willies. Makes me run for the hills; feels cultish. YMMV naturally.
  • People murmuring during the sermon here usually means someone is taken ill!
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Surely in Anglican circles the phrases would be, "Thank Cranmer," or "Praise Laud"? ;)
  • I think many positive phrases are used sarcastically, certainly in England. "Oh well done" is common, but there are plenty. "That went well", and "thank you very much" spring to mind. Maybe any positive phrase can be used like this.
  • The real meaning depends on the tone in which the words are uttered.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    The real meaning depends on the tone in which the words are uttered.

    Well, quite often. But perhaps the deadliest form of sarcasm doesn't use a sarcastic tone. I sometimes say to aggressive people, thank you very much for your concern, said with great enthusiasm. I suppose it could be confusing, wow, I'm so worried about that.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    The real meaning depends on the tone in which the words are uttered.

    Well, quite often. But perhaps the deadliest form of sarcasm doesn't use a sarcastic tone. I sometimes say to aggressive people, thank you very much for your concern, said with great enthusiasm. I suppose it could be confusing, wow, I'm so worried about that.

    I can totally see that you are!
  • Thank you very much!
  • I am not familiar with "in the grass". Except in the song "Grazin' in the Grass" and I'm not at all sure what it means there, if it doesn't refer to smoking marijuana.
  • I think it comes from "in the tall grass," in other words, off the fairway in a game of golf, and therefore basically in a sucky position.
  • I think it comes from "in the tall grass," in other words, off the fairway in a game of golf, and therefore basically in a sucky position.

    I've heard "in the rough" for that, but not "in the grass". We need @Gramps49 to help us out.
  • Maybe it’s a variation on “in the weeds”?

  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    People calling out (or even muttering to themselves) during sermons give me the willies. Makes me run for the hills; feels cultish. YMMV naturally.
    Same here, KLB.
  • I meant "in the rough" or "the weeds" but "out of the park" refers to a home run in baseball terms.

    I knew when I used these phrases would cause some to say "Huh?"

    BTW as a Lutheran in Baptist country, I kind have gotten used to people calling out during sermons. The fact is, I found ways to elicit those responses.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I meant "in the rough" or "the weeds" but "out of the park" refers to a home run in baseball terms.

    The equivalent of a 6 in cricket, ball hit over the boundary fence in the full. I have seen film of a ball hit not just over the boundary, but over the outside fence and into the street beyond in a match in an English country town or city. My recollection is of the batsman repeating the feat in the same over.
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