Jews or Gentiles or what?
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I got Mark 15 in my reading today, specifically
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 35 And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “Behold, he is calling Elijah.” 36 And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” Mark 15:34-26
I’m wondering about these people who hear Jesus’ words and mistake them for a call to Elijah. The fact that they even know who Elijah is suggests that they are Jews, though they might be badly educated ones—proselytes or just people without a good handle on the language (maybe Hellenic Jews? And in any case, which language are we talking here—is this Hebrew or Aramaic, does anybody know off the top of their heads?).
But then there’s the fact that they DO misunderstand Jesus’ words (“my God,” not “Elijah”) which suggests they are not Jews; and they don’t recognize the quotation from Psalm 22:1 either. Which tends to make me think they are Gentiles.
Opinions, ideas?
Oh, and does anybody know about the concept of “Elijah’s cup” at the Passover table –does that go back to Jesus’ day? Because otherwise I can’t account for why they think a call to Elijah ought to be answered with a spongeful of wine, even sour wine.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” 35 And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “Behold, he is calling Elijah.” 36 And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” Mark 15:34-26
I’m wondering about these people who hear Jesus’ words and mistake them for a call to Elijah. The fact that they even know who Elijah is suggests that they are Jews, though they might be badly educated ones—proselytes or just people without a good handle on the language (maybe Hellenic Jews? And in any case, which language are we talking here—is this Hebrew or Aramaic, does anybody know off the top of their heads?).
But then there’s the fact that they DO misunderstand Jesus’ words (“my God,” not “Elijah”) which suggests they are not Jews; and they don’t recognize the quotation from Psalm 22:1 either. Which tends to make me think they are Gentiles.
Opinions, ideas?
Oh, and does anybody know about the concept of “Elijah’s cup” at the Passover table –does that go back to Jesus’ day? Because otherwise I can’t account for why they think a call to Elijah ought to be answered with a spongeful of wine, even sour wine.
Comments
https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/20158/why-didnt-the-jews-understand-eli-eli-lama-sabachthani
That said, the idea that Elijah would return to announce the Messiah’s arrival was definitely around in Second Temple Judaism. That belief provides the context for John 1:19–23, when the Pharisees and Levites ask John the Baptists if he is Elijah, and for Matt. 16:13–14, when Jesus asks who people say he is and the disciples respond that some say Elijah.
I would suspect that the bystanders could have been Jews, or they could have Romans or others familiar with popular Jewish messianic beliefs that were almost certainly in the air during Roman occupation. I also wouldn’t discount the possibility that at this point in things, Jesus’s speech might have been such that bystanders might misunderstand him.
My understanding is also that sour wine was regularly used to make the person being crucified more alert, so as to prolong the pain. Assuming that was actually the case, the sour wine may have been given to him with an intention like “alright, he’s calling Elijah. Let’s wake him up a bit and see if Elijah really comes.” But that’s just a guess.
It was the earlier offer of wine mixed with myrrh, which Jesus refused, that would have had a pain-numbing effect.
I appreciate this, but they seem to be off on tangents most or all of the time, at least with regards to what I'm interested in. Which is the odd conjunction of knowledge (there's this guy Elijah...) with confusion (can't understand "Eli" or pick up on the quotation from the Psalm--and here the whole sentence would serve to prevent confusion, as nobody would accuse Elijah of forsaking them!).
I'm really not fussed about whether it was Aramaic or Hebrew, as the Greek is basically "the Jewish language" which could be either--and it's kind of irrelevant. The problem exists regardless of the language.
Thanks, Nick, re the sour wine. My understanding (which may well be wrong) is that the sour wine was most likely posca, the usual drink of Roman soldiers--which was definitely sour, but still alcoholic, and if it had any effect at all, I'd expect it to be mildly depressive. Though given he seems to have drunk it just before his death, it may not have had time to do anything at all... but then, the offerers wouldn't have known that, so maybe you're right!
There is some indication that the Elijah Cup was a medieval addition to the Seder.
See: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/117141/jewish/The-Silent-Cup.htm
https://reformjudaism.org/passover-mystery-fifth-cup
AIUI many Jews did not speak Classical (Biblical) Hebrew, and Aramaic does differ significantly.
Although Psslm 22 is very familiar to Christians, I don’t know how well it would have been known to the average first century Judaean Jew, so it seems most likely to me that the Gospel is recounting a straightforward mishearing / misunderstanding.
AIUI this is Aramaic.
I think Nick Tamen's point is helpful, about this being a culturally mixed crowd in a stressful situation. That may have blurred the lines of what people heard Jesus saying.
Jesus's pronunciation may have been an issue, not only with the duress of suffering, but presumably he would have had a Galilean accent. A Galilean accent was noticeable enough to have been commented on in Mark 14:70, when Peter is rumbled as a disciple. (I am not aware of any historic visual cultural markers of being Galilean.)
It's my understanding that this cannot be either confirmed or dismissed as having been part of the Passover celebration at the time of Jesus.
No need to guess on this one, somebody in the crowd says it plainly (Matt 26:73): After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, “Certainly you too are one of them, for your accent betrays you.”
Some thought that John the Baptist was Elijah. For Christians, John is the Forerunner, but for Jews, that was to be Elijah.
The interesting thing to remember about Elijah is that he did not die. He was assumed bodily into heaven. See 2 Kings 2.
Many at the time of Christ expected Elijah to return to announce the liberation of the Jews, or the end times. See, for example, Malachi 4.5.
And, in a way, he did, but not how they were expecting it. Elijah and Moses were present to witness to the Christ at the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor. The Prophets and the Law witnessing to Christ, of course, but also, in another way, the living and the dead.
So, in the din of the Crucifixion, it's not so surprising that bystanders misheard (or misrepresented) Jesus summoning the little that remained of his life force to say "Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani" ("My God, my God, why have you deserted me?") and taken him to be asking Elijah to return to save him "Eliyahu, Eliyahu, lama sabacthani" ("Elijah, Elijah, why have you deserted me?").
I can't get very excited about the sour wine/vinegar either.
For me, given that this is an event attended and witnessed by a number of people, the question is who the active participants were, as well as who the eye-witnesses were.
Several hours in, I reckon that most of the people who remained would have been a mix of Romans (I'm guessing bored soldiers), motivated Jewish adherents and motivated Jewish detractors. And I wonder which of these three groups had the most influence on Mark and Matthew's accounts, whether at first, second, or third… hand.
I'm currently leaning towards the events as described being Jesus' detractors mocking him. As pointed out, the Jews there would have been familiar with the idea of Elijah's role in relation to the coming of the Messiah. Deliberately miscasting Jesus as having said "Elijah, Elijah, why have you forsaken me" strikes me as something that someone keen to discredit a so-called Messiah would have been quite motivated to lob into the mix.