Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited June 12
    To me, 'gutter' means both the trough that runs along below the eaves, and the drainage trough at the side of a road. The gutter below the eaves carries the water to a downpipe that takes it to a ground level drain. I've not encountered 'rhone' before. I think that may be specifically Scots.

    'Rhyne', by the way, for those that haven't met it before, is pronounced 'rheen' round where I am. It doesn't rhyme with Rhine.

    'Decking' here means a flat surface of wood outside ones house that one puts garden tables, chairs, parasols etc on, i.e. a patio with a wooden floor rather than tiles, paving stones etc.

    'Sarking board' is a new one on me. I'm not sure I can even guess what it means. Looking it up implies it could mean roofing felt. Alternatively does it mean what I'd normally call 'barge boards' which run up the outside edges of the gable end of a roof to protect the eaves from the weather.

  • Deck, not decking for this Canadian. More often now made out of composite: recycled plastic combined with wood fibres.

    I looked up "sarking board". Here on top of roof trusses (generally they are very large pre-made triangles that form the roof of a house), sheathing is put. Sheathing is OSB (oriented strand board, 4'x8' or 4'x12'), meaning that wood bits were combined in layers with glues. But different than chip board which isn't in layers. OSB doesn't need roofing felt. It's already treated and better than older ways. The rules are pretty strict, the wood components have to be certified for what they're being used for.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Sarking, whether board or other materials is a layer immediately underneath the tiles or slates etc. in a roof construction. It is not usually visible outside the finished roof.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Deck, not decking for this Canadian.

    Here, a "deck" would be something that you had made out of "decking".

  • BroJames wrote: »
    Sarking, whether board or other materials is a layer immediately underneath the tiles or slates etc. in a roof construction. It is not usually visible outside the finished roof.

    That is exactly my understanding of it - as in solid boards - but it was unknown to my architect friend.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Deck, not decking for this Canadian.

    Here, a "deck" would be something that you had made out of "decking".

    We make them out of deck boards.

    Something all fancy, including a well dressed person, or something with all the options is "all decked out".
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    The colour for horses is 'roan'.
    'Give my roan horse a drench.' Shakespeare, Henry IV Part I. Prince Hal, parodying Harry Hotspur.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    "I suppose you dragged yourselves up on deck?

    Oh no, we dressed quite casual".
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    Deck, not decking for this Canadian.

    Here, a "deck" would be something that you had made out of "decking".
    Same here (American South).

  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Taps is a bugle call indicating lights out.
  • edited June 14
    It's got words "day is done, gone the sun, from the lakes, from the hills, from the sky, all is well, safely rest, god is neigh (or "nice").

    Never heard it as a bugle thing until much later. We sang this at bedtime when I was young, later at summer camp, and later still when I worked at camps. Also sang it to my children. It's a nice little song for after prayers and tucking in.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited June 14
    Mistake
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    It's got words "day is done, gone the sun, from the lakes, from the hills, from the sky, all is well, safely rest, god is neigh (or "nice")..

    Neigh or nigh?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    mousethief wrote: »
    Taps is a bugle call indicating lights out.
    One of the suggested origins for taps that Wikipedia gives is a
    Dutch custom, called taptoe, from which comes the term tattoo as in Military tattoo. The taptoe was also used to signal the end of the day, but originated from a signal that beer taps had to be shut, hence that the day had ended. It comes from the Dutch phrase Doe den tap toe, meaning "Close the tap".
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited June 14
    We sing that Canadian version of taps in the GirlGuide unit I volunteer at, with actions (and seas not lakes and nigh not neigh). Well, currently we mime it on Zoom.

    Taps is recognised in that military sense here too, and in GirlGuiding there is a standard UK version more usually sung, while saluting, at night on camp or at the end of a session. It has a different tune too.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Taps is a bugle call indicating lights out.
    One of the suggested origins for taps that Wikipedia gives is a
    Dutch custom, called taptoe, from which comes the term tattoo as in Military tattoo. The taptoe was also used to signal the end of the day, but originated from a signal that beer taps had to be shut, hence that the day had ended. It comes from the Dutch phrase Doe den tap toe, meaning "Close the tap".

    That sounds verrrrry urban legend.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    'Last Post' in the British forces.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    They throw your fedora
    Wherever the floor is
    And start doing horas
    And taps


    I tried tap dancing, but I kept falling in the bath.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Taps is a bugle call indicating lights out.
    One of the suggested origins for taps that Wikipedia gives is a
    Dutch custom, called taptoe, from which comes the term tattoo as in Military tattoo. The taptoe was also used to signal the end of the day, but originated from a signal that beer taps had to be shut, hence that the day had ended. It comes from the Dutch phrase Doe den tap toe, meaning "Close the tap".

    That sounds verrrrry urban legend.

    Very much so indeed.

    The true origin of the term is that calling it taps meant that the day's business was over, and that it was now time to go home, have a shower and freshen up for dinner. Having a shower involved turning on the shower taps.
  • According to this site (link to History.com) originally the lights out signal was a drum beat, replaced by the bugle. The drum beats were called taps, so the bugle call continued to be.

    The traditional Guide taps with actions (YouTube link).
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited June 14
    We used to live downhill from the military school in Dover, and could hear Last Post, every night. Which is why I can whistle it.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    We ended our cubs meetings with Taps. (early 1970s).
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    According to this site (link to History.com) originally the lights out signal was a drum beat, replaced by the bugle. The drum beats were called taps, so the bugle call continued to be.
    That’s what the Online Etymology Dictionary says too.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    mousethief wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Taps is a bugle call indicating lights out.
    One of the suggested origins for taps that Wikipedia gives is a
    Dutch custom, called taptoe, from which comes the term tattoo as in Military tattoo. The taptoe was also used to signal the end of the day, but originated from a signal that beer taps had to be shut, hence that the day had ended. It comes from the Dutch phrase Doe den tap toe, meaning "Close the tap".

    That sounds verrrrry urban legend.
    Maybe, though it is supported by Merriam Webster which tracks back to orders by George Washington that
    Reveille will beat at day-break; the troop at 8 in the morning; the retreat at sunset and taproot nine o'Clock in the evening
    .

  • It's called "Day is Done", not Taps in my locale.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    I din't notice in time that autocorrect turned 'taptoo at' into 'taproot' :unamused:

    The quotation should have read to orders by George Washington that
    Reveille will beat at day-break; the troop at 8 in the morning; the retreat at sunset and taptoo at nine o'Clock in the evening.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    It's called "Day is Done", not Taps in my locale.
    The bugle tune dates back at least to the American Civil War, and was formally recognized by the US Military in the 1870s. “Day is Done” is one of several lyrics written for Taps later on.

  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Taps is a bugle call indicating lights out.
    One of the suggested origins for taps that Wikipedia gives is a
    Dutch custom, called taptoe, from which comes the term tattoo as in Military tattoo. The taptoe was also used to signal the end of the day, but originated from a signal that beer taps had to be shut, hence that the day had ended. It comes from the Dutch phrase Doe den tap toe, meaning "Close the tap".

    That sounds verrrrry urban legend.
    Maybe, though it is supported by Merriam Webster which tracks back to orders by George Washington that
    Reveille will beat at day-break; the troop at 8 in the morning; the retreat at sunset and taproot nine o'Clock in the evening
    .

    That says nothing about beer.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    But it does have George Washington refer to that final call, now known as ‘taps’ and calling it ‘taptoo’, which coheres with the idea that it comes from the C17th Dutch/Flemish phrase doe den tap toe ("turn off the tap"). And see these two Wiki articles: Taps; tattoo
  • It does sound like an urban legend. But in this case I'm inclined to believe it. The Dutch word "taptoe" (pronounced "tap too") does mean tattoo in the military sense, both the grand military parade and the signal at the end of the day. Reputable Dutch etymological sources all agree on the origin being in beer taps being closed, and I don't think it's a stretch to imagine how this would become "taps" in parts of the English speaking world.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    'taptoe' is indeed used in the Scouts in Belgium and no doubt in the Netherlands and appears in German as' Zapf zu' referring to the bugle call at the end of any evening free time which troops might have had.The bugle call indicated it was time to drink up and return to barracks.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    'Last Post' is rather different. It refers to setting the guard at a military garrison. The officer commanding the guard makes his rounds, posting a sentry at each guard post. All troops should be in barracks by the time he reaches the last post. Any soldier found out of barracks after the call 'Last Post' is sounded will be AWOL. My authority: the military historian Richard Holmes, in Redcoat, (a history of the British soldier in the time of the musket). 'Taps' sounds like a friendly reminder; Last Post is a warning.
  • Penny S wrote: »
    I wonder if it's related to the Somerset word "rhyne" for a drain, as in artificial watercourse carrying water from a marsh.

    In South Wales, that word is 'reen' from what seems to be colloquial Welsh 'run' (same general pronunciation)
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Penny S wrote: »
    I wonder if it's related to the Somerset word "rhyne" for a drain, as in artificial watercourse carrying water from a marsh.

    In South Wales, that word is 'reen' from what seems to be colloquial Welsh 'run' (same general pronunciation)
    @Rev per Minute and @Penny S that's genuinely quite interesting. Is 'reen/run' a Wenglish idiomatic use of English 'run' or is it from a Welsh word? On the English side of the water there is the word 'Pill', pronounced as spelt, which means a tidal inlet that one can use as a harbour. I'm sure it's the same word as Pwll and a similar word that appears in place names on the Welsh side of the water.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    I can't find a word in the Geiriadur Prifysgol (Welsh's answer to the OED), and native Welsh words don't begin with R - rh yes, but not r - and I've checked for possible rh- words. I don't think the word ultimately had a Welsh origin.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Regarding Pil and Pwll - Geiriadur Prifysgol has Pil borrowed from Old English, meaning a creek or inlet. Pwll appears as Pol in SW England - Polperro, Polzeath - and means "pool", derived from either Latin Palus (swamp) or Old English Pol. Whether the words ultimately have a common origin can't be determined.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    I am suddenly reminded of a tale about the tribe of Native Americans on the Mississippi who used small roundish leather covered basket type craft to fish, and had words resembling the Welsh words for such things, and the stretches of water they used them on, which was taken to confirm a Welsh expedition back before Columbus. I think there was a consensus that this was accidental similarity, and no weight should be given to said tribespeople greeting the first white arrivals with "iechyd da".
    A bit more difficult to rule out common origins when speakers live closer together and have languages derived from a common root, though.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited June 20
    Penny S wrote: »
    I am suddenly reminded of a tale about the tribe of Native Americans on the Mississippi who used small roundish leather covered basket type craft to fish, and had words resembling the Welsh words for such things, and the stretches of water they used them on, which was taken to confirm a Welsh expedition back before Columbus. I think there was a consensus that this was accidental similarity, and no weight should be given to said tribespeople greeting the first white arrivals with "iechyd da".
    A bit more difficult to rule out common origins when speakers live closer together and have languages derived from a common root, though.

    This would be the Prince Madoc Mandan myth.

    There is no credible linguistic link.

    Even when languages are geographically close, linguists look for evidence to support hypotheses of borrowing and etymology.
  • A question for our antipodal shipmates. I was watching a video made by two Australian musicians. One I believe is Chinese from Singapore and the other from Taiwan, and from their accents it's evident that they're not native speakers of English. They pronounced "archive" with a soft 'ch' as in "church" not as a 'k'. Is this regional, or were they victims of yet another landmine in the field of English?
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    A question for our antipodal shipmates. I was watching a video made by two Australian musicians. One I believe is Chinese from Singapore and the other from Taiwan, and from their accents it's evident that they're not native speakers of English. They pronounced "archive" with a soft 'ch' as in "church" not as a 'k'. Is this regional, or were they victims of yet another landmine in the field of English?

    No. It's a spelling pronuniation, common problem for second language speakers.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    Penny S wrote: »
    I wonder if it's related to the Somerset word "rhyne" for a drain, as in artificial watercourse carrying water from a marsh.

    In South Wales, that word is 'reen' from what seems to be colloquial Welsh 'run' (same general pronunciation)
    @Rev per Minute and @Penny S that's genuinely quite interesting. Is 'reen/run' a Wenglish idiomatic use of English 'run' or is it from a Welsh word? On the English side of the water there is the word 'Pill', pronounced as spelt, which means a tidal inlet that one can use as a harbour. I'm sure it's the same word as Pwll and a similar word that appears in place names on the Welsh side of the water.

    I couldn't find 'run' /reen/ in any online dictionary either, so perhaps the word is shared either side of the Severn Sea (called the Bristol Channel by the English :wink: ) and a Welsh version is colloquial or Wenglish. (One of my current churches is in the village of Marshfield, Maerun /MY-reen/ in Welsh)

    Newport has an area known as Pill, officially Pillgwenlly/Pilgwenlli which means 'Gwenllian's Pill'. There is a story about a Welsh chieftain falling in love with a princess called Gwenllian but being rejected by the king, her father, as unworthy (= not rich enough). Not being one to take 'no' for an answer, the chieftain kidnapped Gwenllian, with her full consent, obviously, and carried her off to the Usk where he sailed away with her from the pill that now bears her name. Pill has been the Docks area of the city for the past 200 years as ships moved away from the town centre.

    Less poetic are Crindau Pill and Jack's Pill - all meet your description of a tidal inlet, useful for loading and launching a ship away from the main river (the Usk). On another tangent, the name 'Usk' apparently comes from a pre-Roman word meaning 'water', hence the Roman names Isca Silurium (Caerleon) on the Usk and Isca Dumnorum (Exeter) on the Exe. There are a number of other rivers in Britain with the same derivation. This last fact brought to you courtesy of a General Studies speaker during my Sixth Form, worryingly close to 40 years ago...
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    I wonder if the people either side of the Severn were as much in each others' lives as Kent and Essex used to be in the days when the river was a highway not a barrier. (See organisation of Peasant's revolting.) Obviously greater differences than between Angles and Jutes.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    A question for our antipodal shipmates. I was watching a video made by two Australian musicians. One I believe is Chinese from Singapore and the other from Taiwan, and from their accents it's evident that they're not native speakers of English. They pronounced "archive" with a soft 'ch' as in "church" not as a 'k'. Is this regional, or were they victims of yet another landmine in the field of English?

    No. It's a spelling pronuniation, common problem for second language speakers.

    Yes, I've never heard it pronounced other than "arkive".
  • deletoiledeletoile Shipmate Posts: 5
    [quote
    No. It's a spelling pronuniation, common problem for second language speakers.[/quote]

    Or second language readers! I spoke English first but learned to read in Dutch, which, like French, is quite phonetic. I remember, aged 8 or so, my mother teaching me to read English - I had commiserating conversations with our butcher who was preparing to emigrate to Australia. The running family joke became lingerie, pronounced, obviously, as in "linger". I became an avid reader, but for at least another 20 years would suddenly realize I had only read a word, and did not know how to pronounce it. And that is without dealing with oddities like "St John" being pronounced sin-jun, and "Maudlin" College, Gloster, and Chumly......
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    There is a pub in the ‘hood which was previously the Beauchamp.

    Lately I have noticed that it is now the Beacham🙀

    Not happy, Jan as the Antipodeans say…
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    I read today that Brits say "orientate" when westponders say "orient". Is this true? Crazy Brits inventing unnecessary new words. :)
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    They do it in the Antipodes.

    Like Orientation Week at uni: one is orientated to the ins and outs of tertiary eddication
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    Question for the Brits: I've been an avid Dorothy L. Sayers fan and I very much enjoyed Gaudy Night and Busman's Honeymoon. I especially enjoyed Lord Peter's scamp of a nephew, St. George, AKA Jerry AKA Gherkins. As St. John (as a given name, not the saint or Gospel) is pronounced pronounced sin-jun is there a special way that St. George is pronounced? Thanks. :smile:
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    I read today that Brits say "orientate" when westponders say "orient". Is this true? Crazy Brits inventing unnecessary new words. :)

    Whereas you decided that "oblige" wasn't enough and went with "obligate".
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    *cough* burglarize *cough*
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