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Epiphanies 2023: Scottish Gender Recognition Act and UK Block
This discussion was created from comments split from: Attorney General endorses transphobia.
Comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64288757
Playing to the bigots they rely on for votes seems to be the only thing the tories care about these days. Time for them to go into Outer Darkness, or at the very least durance vile...
Starmer's not much better, pandering to them.
Yes, but are they why Westminster wants to use Section 35? Which 'Island'?
Britain.
The TERF narrative is seen as mainstream in the UK, which legitimises right-wing transphobia as well.
As no 'medical diagnosis' of gender dysphoria is required in the Scottish Bill does being trans become less of a 'thing ' as gender self-identity is the 'thing'?
(Please note, I am only trying to understand this issue)
The recent census showed that there are about as many trans people in England and Wales*, as there are Jewish people or Buddhists or GRT people - about 0.5% of the population if I recall correctly. When the most powerful people come for a powerless minority like that, the stakes are very high. The minority is at risk, along with the nature of our democracy and rule of law because hate-groups stop at nothing and quickly jettison all their other principles to get at the minority they hate.
We're seeing that in Scotland right now as people who are driven by hatred of trans folk jettison every other principle they have to stand with Sunak against a cross-party vote of the Scottish Parliament supported by Lib Dems, Labour, SNP, Greens and even two Tories.
An honourable mention to the Scottish Lib Dems here for praise, as along with the Greens they voted 100% for the gender recognition act and are so far standing by it. Scottish Labour voted overwhelmingly for it too (I think with about two rebels) but because of Keir Starmer some really shocking selling-out has just cropped up.
It's important to understand that this crosses lines on Independence and was overwhelmingly backed by all parties pro and anti Indy except the Conservatives who are part of the international right and far-right attack on trans people (who are scapegoated by them like other vulnerable groups).
I don't think you can any longer say you are left wing or Liberal and join with the Conservatives to attack trans people without being open to charges of being at best a 'useful idiot' and at worst as bad as everyone else on the far right who uses the 'attack on minority' group tactic.
*we're still waiting for up to date Scottish figures
I cross posted with you Merry Vole and will ask about and see if I can find a good resource for helping.
[Edited to add I've added Gwai's link to our pinned resources thread - and there's more where that came from]
Cheers
L
Community-wise? No. Being trans will always matter. If you are assigned male at birth and are female, you would then self identify as female. But that would be because you are trans.
Does that make sense?
Also a link that might be helpful: https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/gender-recognition-act-reform-2022/gra-in-the-world/
Is anyone arguing that everyone should be pansexual?
And if they are, what is their relevance to the question at hand?
I think this is the effect, but the aim is to stoke up the culture war.
I'm not sure it's even that, it's primarily posturing for the benefit of tory backbenchers.
https://screenshot-media.com/politics/lgbtqi-rights/gender-recognition-reform-bill/
And all this is for a tiny reform that was seen by even someone as right wing as Theresa May as uncontroversial almost a decade ago.
Here's a bit of personal oral history from Sarah Brown who was on an advisory group for Stonewall from the UK trans community.
https://thegoatery.dyndns.org/display/8a89e8f8-1763-c61d-0d52-67a479400051
I've said before that one of the reasons I've been so active about this is that I watched that culture war start up in real time under my nose and I was just shocked by how quick and easy it was for very powerful people with pulpits in the media to scapegoat trans folk. If I hadn't seen that with my own eyes, I might easily have been taken in by it too as it spread to the kind of sources I would have thought were reputable and I could have unknowingly been parroting that bigotry to loved ones who weren't out about not being cis.
But just think about this, what's been put forward is something so anodyne it was originally thought uncontroversial by Theresa May... that tells you how far controversy has been deliberately manipulated and manufactured
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1615407126179880960.html
Yes, fairly straightforward. The govt's points are absurd. As Falconer says, the exemptions for organizations will still apply. And there will be a few more trans people. However, Falconer neglects the culture war aspect, and of course, the attempt to sabotage the Scottish govt.
It's not a choice. That's why it's a gender recognition certificate.
If my daughter turns out to in fact be my son then I would want them to have the full legal protection of that fact available as soon as possible.
Nobody wakes up one morning age 16 and suddenly decides they want a GRC. This will, in pretty well every case, be the culmination of years of consideration.
It looks as though a legal challenge would fail.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-64315517
Maybe the SNP have different legal advice - though it didn't go well the last time they took the UK government to the High Court. I do hope that the SNP aren't using a disadvantaged minority as a stick to beat Westminster with.
Indeed. I'd go as far as to say that there's a danger that not allowing 16 year olds to apply for a GRC risks supporting denialism in non-affirming parents.
But if you're in any doubt about where the Scottish LGBT community stands, this is Duncan Hothersall who helped set up helped to set up Pride Scotland and the Equality Network.
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/4065361/duncan-hothersall-gender-reform-trans-section-28-keep-the-clause/
He's a Scottish Labour activist who completely opposes the SNP on constitutional matters. Please read what he has to say
Similarly you'll note the Scottish Lib Dems not only voted 100% for this but also fought for it at Westminster with Christine Jardine pressing Alister Jack hard on this.
Finally people don't 'make a choice of gender at sixteen' they know what gender they are - the same way as anybody else does, much the same way that people know their sexual orientation. They simply decide to come out of the closet about it and to begin affirming the gender they are. The only choice is: are you going to be out about it and face the prejudice or are you going to stay closeted and feel you have to pretend to be something you're not, with all the harm and misery we know that causes.
People who love their children and grandchildren can do a great deal of good by educating themselves about gender from LGBT+ sources which know what they're talking about, and by speaking out against the current moral panic against trans people and especially the panic about trans young people, because that's how your children, grandchildren and friends will know you're a safe person to come out to.
This.
I’m sure the Westminster govt are using it as a distraction from the many other messes they are in. A bit of moral panic and otherizing suits their agenda well.
I will wait for the outcome of any Supreme Court judgement about whether Holyrood has acted outside its legal remit. Sturgeon has promised legal action, so that should clarify the situation.
(In an ideal world this would result in the same legislation being passed nationally, but that does then require legislation from the rest of the UK.)
In one.
It appears that in the case of, for example, marriage - the uk will recognise a status so long as it was legal in the country in which it occurred: https://raydensolicitors.co.uk/blog/are-marriages-abroad-recognised-in-the-uk/
The difference is that the UK does not consider Scotland an external entity in that way.
(ETA It looks as if the UK government is looking at refusing to recognise external self-ID though, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/10/tories-review-lgbtq-gender-recognition-certificate-deal but at the moment people with more liberal regimes will have have their gender status accepted.)
Don't think so - doesn't the GRC allow the changing of your birth certificate, which dictates your legal gender?
The new bill that passed through the Scottish Parliament in December will not change the function of a GRC, and if that's not automatically effective nationally then no GRC issued in the UK since the legislation to recognise actual gender was introduced has been effective. It would mean that all the people who have gone through the bureaucracy and intrusive medical assessments to get a GRC have a worthless piece of paper.
Why is this actually not viable? The person's body is only in one part of the country at any one time.
It's obviously a sucky state of affairs for a person to be recognized as, let's say, male, in Scotland, but treated as female in England, but is it really less viable than something like being able to buy tobacco in parts of the country but not other parts?
(I'm not trying to minimize the hurt to the actual person of having their gender not recognized - I'm asking why this is not viable, not why it's horrible.)
What legal contradiction is created by a person being treated as male in one place but female in another place?
The concept that someone’s legal sex could be different from their sex assigned at birth seems to be recognized in the UK GRA - the problem as I understand it is that the UK GRA process is so cumbersome as to make it impracticable for many people. In principle it seems that it should be possible to make this process less cumbersome without necessarily going as far as the Scottish Act does.