Is Israel still "special" ?
Furtive Gander
Shipmate
Lots of Christians give the modern state of Israel a free hand to do as they choose, I assume on the basis that it was God's originally-chosen land/people but is this still true?
My understanding is that under the Old Covenant (old testament) God chose the people of Israel to be his special people and gave them many opportunities over centuries to turn to him, devote themselves to him and make him their One True God. Some did turn and devote themselves to him but many/most didn't.
Then under the New Covenant (as recorded in the New Testament) God created the opportunity to everyone as individuals to turn to God through Jesus the Son and be his people. At this point I've always assumed that the old covenant is superceded by the new and Israel no longer has a special place with the freedom to do as they wish, ignore human laws and claim God's protection.
I suspect that those willing to forgive Israel anything at all are more politically right-wing "Old Testament Christians" who are far more likely to cite OT laws as a basis for criticising people and actions they don't like than looking to the teachings of Jesus who they claim to follow.
What do you think?
(NB Hosts: As I'm interested in how we should see modern Israel, I don't see this as primarily a Bible discussion but political with some biblical input.)
My understanding is that under the Old Covenant (old testament) God chose the people of Israel to be his special people and gave them many opportunities over centuries to turn to him, devote themselves to him and make him their One True God. Some did turn and devote themselves to him but many/most didn't.
Then under the New Covenant (as recorded in the New Testament) God created the opportunity to everyone as individuals to turn to God through Jesus the Son and be his people. At this point I've always assumed that the old covenant is superceded by the new and Israel no longer has a special place with the freedom to do as they wish, ignore human laws and claim God's protection.
I suspect that those willing to forgive Israel anything at all are more politically right-wing "Old Testament Christians" who are far more likely to cite OT laws as a basis for criticising people and actions they don't like than looking to the teachings of Jesus who they claim to follow.
What do you think?
(NB Hosts: As I'm interested in how we should see modern Israel, I don't see this as primarily a Bible discussion but political with some biblical input.)
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My impression is that lots of contemporary Christians give Israel a free hand because they see the modern State of Israel as key to the fulfillment of prophecies related to the Second Coming. For my part, I think it’s problematic to equate the biblical people of Israel with the modern State of Israel.
Let us pray also for the Jewish people,
to whom the Lord our God spoke first,
that he may grant them to advance in love of his name
and in faithfulness to his covenant.
There is no sense that the Covenant is nullified, and the following prayer re-enforces the point that, for the Jews it is their route to salvation.
Almighty ever-living God,
who bestowed your promises on Abraham and his descendants,
graciously hear the prayers of your Church,
that the people you first made your own
may attain the fullness of redemption.
I think the gospels at least imply that the old covenant as expressed in the Law remains.
The Brief Statement of Faith of the Presbyterian Church (USA) puts it this way:
In everlasting love,
the God of Abraham and Sarah chose a covenant people
to bless all families of the earth.
Hearing their cry,
God delivered the children of Israel
from the house of bondage.
Loving us still,
God makes us heirs with Christ of the covenant.
Like a mother who will not forsake her nursing child,
like a father who runs to welcome the prodigal home,
God is faithful still.
There is some tension in rejecting both. I think the answer is to realise that Christianity is a branch of Judaism, somewhat eccentric by the standards of the other modern branches.
Those who live in ‘modern Israel’ are no less or more under God than anyone else.
Alas, what the Zionists wanted was to be a 'nation like any othe', and that is what they have turned to be. In the situation in which they find themselves they have reacted like any other embattled settler community - I think of the Ulster Scots, and the whtes in South Africa., and I fear for the future.
Nick Tamen: "But the point of Israel being the chosen people was so that Israel could lead all people to God—a light to the nations, in the words of Isaiah. So rather seeing the New Covenant as superseding the Old, it seems to me that we should see the New Covenant as a fulfillment or completion, through Christ, of the Old."
Did they do much leading people to God? Or did their failure in this lead to the need for a new covenant? I'm not tied to the idea that the old covenant is superceded - I forget where I heard that but it makes sense. Seeing the NC as fulfilment of the OC may be right.
I can see the fulfillment of prophecy point but it seems mistaken. Why would God fulfilling prophecies need to depend on some people (even his special originally-chosen ones) being allowed to seriously misbehave towards others? Would the people who believe this say that the Second Coming may be derailed by our requiring Israel to act fairly and treat people well? Isn''t Israel supposed to be demonstrating God's love? Especially as 'Light to the World' in your first point?
Sorry for the delay. I tried to respond yesterday but I got confused in adding my comments to yours in the right place. I expected the 'preview' button to show me the final result as it would look but it seems to do nothing useful so you have to post then go back to edit within the time limit. Does anyone else find this?
I suspect the venn diagram of the type of conservatives evangelicals who ardently support Israel and the type who twist "God's love" to mean "hating all the people they hate" is close to a circle.
Jesus came out of Israel. And isn’t that salvation through Israel has come what Simeon sang about?
“Now, Lord, you let your servant go in peace:
your word has been fulfilled.
My own eyes have seen the salvation
which you have prepared in the sight of every people:
a light to reveal you to the nations
and the glory of your people Israel.”
To me, it makes little sense to say that the old covenant is superseded, given that the OT consistently asserts that God will be faithful to Israel. To say that the covenant with Israel is superseded is to say that God is, in fact, not faithful.
I didn’t say I agree with this view, just that it’s part of the worldview of many Christians who seem to have such strong support for Israel on religious grounds. There is much about their theology, or their eschatology, that I think is mistaken—including, as I said above, that I think it’s problematic to equate the biblical people of Israel with the modern political entity that is Israel.
Can’t say I do. Preview always shows me the post as it will look, except that nested quotes aren’t nested, but appear in full.
Not in any positive way.
My cousin's MiL fled Russia with one of her 4 brothers for (then) Palestine in 1937: the rest of their family were wiped out. He also has a DiL whose parents got out of Austria in 1938 - again, the wider family didn't survive the Shoah. Having got to know them over 40+ years I think I have a little insight into the Israeli feeling about their country.
Until you understand how ever-present the memory of the Shoah is among European Jews, and how they are affected by the anti-semitism of the countries around them you will never understand modern Israel. Forget the biblical thing: sure, some of the ultra-orthodox use it as the reason for the country's existence, but that is beside the point. The plain fact is that Jews all over the world have learned just how much they can rely on non-Jews when they are threatened with annihilation - the answer is not at all. And modern political Israel will do everything it can to defend Jews by giving them a country where no one is going to question their right to live.
No Israeli is ever going to rely on any Goy politician's "guarantees", or believe any neighbouring state will be an honest broker or dealer because history has taught them such brokerage and guarantees are worthless.
No, how we should view the modern state of Israel is the topic of this discussion. How Israelis view themselves may be related to the topic and may inform us but it's not the same thing.
At one time Palestine was an equal mix of Christians, Muslims, and Jews, but when the Zionists started invading it, stealing Palestinian land, cutting down Muslim olive trees and restricting Christian expression, it just became a repressive body with very strong apartheid practices. We finally got South Africa to change its ways Israel needs to change too.
I've also visited Palestine briefly and saw nothing of the brutality but I'm aware of it. I've heard lots of reports on BBC radio and it's shown a few times a week on TV news including (especially) Aljazeera. Human rights organisations such as Human Rights Watch, presumably Amnesty International and a number of UN bodies and independent NGOs see and report the atrocities towards Palestinians - all to no effect.
To my mind Israel is a bad actor, has become a rogue state and yet it's rarely officially criticised or held to account in a way that makes any difference. The Israeli government ignores all criticism and it knows that its most powerful enabler - the USA will always rein in any attempts to charge them in the UN or make Israel behave while other nations with 'behaviour issues' have sanctions against them and other steps to force a choice between political and financial pain, and changing their ways. My country the UK also stands by and does nothing much.
If Israel stopped their illegal expansion, accepted the legal borders and withdrew to within them and accepted a two-state solution, the Middle East and the world would be a more peaceful place.
I actually think that the Church can actually chew gum and walk at the same time. It can acknowledge God's continuing relationship with the Jewish people, atone for its centuries long anti-Semitism and work with the Jewish community to ensure that Jews, as well as all people live safely and in dignity, being free to practise their faith and culture...AND
The Church can also stand up for Palestine, to ensure that Palestinians have the right to their land, a right to return, and full political and social equality in their homeland.
Israel the country and Israel the people of God are totally different, and Israel is a secular nation that is actually opposed by many Ultra-Orthodox as it is a human-made nation rather than one made by God. Given that it is antisemitic to conflate Judaism with Israel/support of Israel (since many Jewish people support the Palestinian people) I think it's important to separate the two without suggesting any supercessionism.
I think it's one of those things where you have one powerful, loud Christian faction yelling their opinions loudly enough to drown out the rest.
Not gonna argue with that. But they're less visible.
I have similar issues with secular or atheist friends who talk like I'm some kind of freakish anomaly for being Christian but not a fundamentalist. I'm always that rare kindly exception in a pack of assholes.
But that's a tangent from this thread, I think.
I think Christian Zionism is particularly A Thing in the US, but even there it's not universal.
I find these "support X" things troublesome. What does it mean? Defend everything they do? Send them letters of support? I suppose my problem here is I don't identify with groups I support; I identify with causes, policies and principles. This is perhaps why I also find many expressions of patriotism rather incomprehensible.
I should mention my son lived in Palestine for a full year. He has since been back four more times. When you live in the community, you see the brutality.
Meanwhile the world looks away.
It is interesting how some evangelicals have a rather imagined understanding of what Israel is.
Other than the ultra-orthodox, the majority of Jewish Israelis are secular, which even if many of them may have a belief in a God, are probably no much different than most secular Europeans in their minimal religious activity and observance of their faith. Other than the holy sites associated with the three great faiths, Israel proper isn't a hot bed of religious piety.
Why would many Christians notice? How? What are they seeing with the world that they are looking away from?
They will see him again when they say:
“Baruch, habar, beshem Adonai” ..Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.” Luke 13:35.
Did you the many hundreds of condemnatory comments of Israel emanating from the UN over the last 70 years?
For mine, if you want to talk about brutality Gramps 49, maybe check out chop chop square in Saudi Arabia instead of dog piling on the one single and solitary genuinely free democracy in that part of the world whose major concern and crime is self-preservation..sigh. None so blind as those who will not see. Remind me not to waste my time here in future.
The question is about Israel, not about Saudi Arabia.
Anyone defending or making excuses for Saudi Arabia? Nope. That's why Israel gets so many words expended, because there is always someone willing to play apologist for them.
Israel is only a free democracy if you ignore the Palestinians. By that measure South Africa was a free democracy in the 80s. And no, Israel's major concern up to about 1980 may have been self-preservation, but its crimes have been illegal occupation, land theft and (by some definitions) genocide.
That's half the argument - Zionists refuse to accept that Israel is a colonial entity, and accuse of anti-semitism anyone to makes the comparison.
"condemnatory comments of Israel" - yes but that's as far as it goes. It's like a policeman accused of rape or murder by a number or witnesses but the somehow prosecutor never actually gets around to prosecuting him. There's far too much avoiding the issues around (modern) Israel- maybe because of past injustices towards their people over centuries and fear of being accused of antisemitism but these don't excuse their current inhumanity.
I'm happy to criticise Saudi Arabia or other countries but accusations against any of them are likely to be heard. The issues are dealt with by an embarrassing mix of forthright (mostly justified) condemnation and fear of economic consequences ('pragmatism').
The subject here is the modern state of Israel and it being a democracy doesn't seem to make them any better than the rest, just that more people share culpability.