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Epiphanies 2023: Mothering Sunday

Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
edited January 7 in Limbo
Elsewhere Bishop's Finger has posted:
TICTH Mothering Sunday, and the saccharine nonsense served up in many churches.
(There is more in his original post).

I agree, for a number of reasons such as: not all women are (or can be) mothers, some women have lost or are estranged from their children, some people have had a very poor experience of being mothered, etc.... And, while I totally agree that it's good to acknowledge women and this particular role, it can diminish them by over-emphasising motherhood at the expense of their other gifts and potentialities. I could say more but will desist.

FWIW I had a good mother but my wife did not and struggles with this Sunday every year (though she trusts me, as worship leader, not to be sacharine-sweet).
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Comments

  • KwesiKwesi Deckhand, Styx
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2023
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Well, that's one of the IMHO sentimental pieces of claptrap which will be churned out. The minister of the Church of my Youth used to go on about *Jerusalem above, which is the mother of us all*, but I really had no idea what he was talking about - possibly Mother Church?

    There is an idea that Mothering Sunday came about in the middle of Lent, in England at least, as the occasion on which apprentices returned home for a brief holiday, presumably attending their *home* or *mother* parish church.
    Elsewhere Bishop's Finger has posted:
    TICTH Mothering Sunday, and the saccharine nonsense served up in many churches.
    (There is more in his original post).

    I agree, for a number of reasons such as: not all women are (or can be) mothers, some women have lost or are estranged from their children, some people have had a very poor experience of being mothered, etc.... And, while I totally agree that it's good to acknowledge women and this particular role, it can diminish them by over-emphasising motherhood at the expense of their other gifts and potentialities. I could say more but will desist.

    FWIW I had a good mother but my wife did not and struggles with this Sunday every year (though she trusts me, as worship leader, not to be saccharine-sweet).

    I did wonder about posting in Epiphanies, but I think @Baptist Trainfan (with whose views I concur) is more courageous than I...

  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.
  • Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Cross-posted with @Spike, who is correct in what he says.
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    edited March 2023
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?
    This was exactly the point I was going to make .... but try telling that to mothers who expect pressies and breakfast in bed and sons/duaughters who do want to celebrate their mums.

    If we only celebrated human relationships like motherhood, and festivals etc that never ever caused anyone distress, we would never celebrate anything. We are crooked people in a crooked world.
    Oh well, at least, apart we still have Easter ... sort of.


  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited March 2023
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?
  • RockyRoger wrote: »
    If we only celebrated human relationships like motherhood, and festivals etc that never ever caused anyone distress, we would never celebrate anything. We are crooked people in a crooked world.
    There is truth in what you say.

  • BarnabasBarnabas Shipmate Posts: 31
    My late mother, while always grateful for a card and maybe flowers or lunch, used to gently remind me that she was my mother all year and not just one Sunday in the spring.
  • O, there's nothing wrong (well, not much) in having some sort of secular *Mother's Day*, but it's the way it's marked in some (not all) churches that sticks in my craw.

    It appears to be a Law of the Medes and the Persians (which altereth not) that one must not, under any circumstances, attend church at 1030am on Mothering Sunday, and then go to lunch with one's family at 1pm or thereabouts.

    (Even Easter is reduced - in SecularWorld - to Bunnytide and Chocolatemas, with yellow and light green as the proper liturgical colours... :wink: ).

    I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps this thread ought to be in Hell, as I seem to be in rant mode, but there are many very sensitive issues associated with Mothering Sunday, as @Baptist Trainfan has pointed out.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps this thread ought to be in Hell, as I seem to be in rant mode, but there are many very sensitive issues associated with Mothering Sunday
    There is room in Epiphanies for feelings, including anger.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2023
    Thanks @Gwai - noted.
    :wink:
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    MrsLB has often observed that it's a funny way to honour mothers, to drag them out of bed in time to get to church rather than being propped up in bed and fed tea and bacon rolls at a civilised hour, which is how it should be.

    We will be skiving choir this Sunday since that would require a 9am start at church 40 minutes away.

    I know some people would question our attending a church that far away but those some people would also claim not to prefer we didn't go to church at all, so they can wind their necks in.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    In Canada, the Anglican celebration is always on Mother's Day.
  • Caissa wrote: »
    In Canada, the Anglican celebration is always on Mother's Day.

    When is that? Presumably not halfway through Lent!
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I appreciated that this year, some companies sent out an early email giving you an opt out from Mother’s Day advertising.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    In Canada, it is the second Sunday in May.
  • Caissa wrote: »
    In Canada, it is the second Sunday in May.

    Thanks!

    IIRC, that's the same day as in the USA.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Correct
  • Not including it at all in the service on Sunday.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Here's a thing. I have good women friends who always post in Facebook on Fathers Day "Thinking of all the Mums who act as dads" but who think it is bad form if I post "Heres to all the Dads acting as mothers" on Mothering Sunday.
    Churchy celebrations of Mothering Sunday are no longer a thing in our place. Daffodils and chocolate used to be dished out to Mums on the day, but it has slowly faded away.
  • I don't approve in theory, but it's nice to get a card etc. from UK-based son on Mothering Sunday and then one from US-based one in May, when I'm always taken by surprise!
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    I would think that's down to the fact that mums who act as dads vastly, vastly outnumber the number of dads who act as mums. Of course the latter exist, but single mums have historically been seen as a social evil and railed against in a way single dads have not been. Single dads usually get held up as brave and dedicated, single mums get held up as being feckless and promiscuous (especially if their children have different fathers).

    With regards to church celebrations, I think it would be easier if it was just about motherhood without inevitably being about womanhood generally. I realise that this is intended to be more inclusive, but things like flowers being given out to all the women in the congregation are intensely uncomfortable if some of those chosen are not actually women, or if trans women for eg are not chosen. Better to just stick to actual mothers.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Here's a thing. I have good women friends who always post in Facebook on Fathers Day "Thinking of all the Mums who act as dads" but who think it is bad form if I post "Heres to all the Dads acting as mothers" on Mothering Sunday.

    That’s a very good point. My nephew’s wife died recently after a long illness leaving two young children, so this year I’m probably more aware of single dads. I’m also very aware of children who don’t have mothers.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    I think it would be more illuminating if @Alan29 explained what exactly his friends think is bad form about what he writes. Certainly it wouldn't be accurate to suggest that single dads exist as often as single mums or face the same kinds of societal pressures.
  • Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes. Also, as an opportunity to reflect motherhood, eg, the person, histories, qualities of women and the female in scripture whether biologically mothers or not, within the Creative Power we usually refer to as Father God. But maybe we're not quite up to that yet. Requires a rather radical imagination, that kind of thing. Celebrating the female creative of God's purpose and Being? Shirley not!
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    Another reason a lot of people are absent is that many childless people find the day difficult.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Spike wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    Another reason a lot of people are absent is that many childless people find the day difficult.

    Many childless people are childfree by choice and don't find it difficult due to not having children - more likely to be estrangement from or difficult relationships with their mothers.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Pomona wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    Another reason a lot of people are absent is that many childless people find the day difficult.

    Many childless people are childfree by choice and don't find it difficult due to not having children - more likely to be estrangement from or difficult relationships with their mothers.

    But many aren’t
  • Indeed. I am one of those not childfree by choice.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    Our vicar usually preaches on Mothering Sunday, but this year it’s my turn. I haven’t worked out what to say yet. I am very aware that, for a variety of reasons, many people in the congregation will not particularly look forward to this day.
    We make sure there are daffodils for everyone in the congregation.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    You make it sound like Mum is an unwilling victim of these machinations.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited March 2023
    Whereas I'd definitely fall into the other camp - happy and relieved not to have had children and I would never want this awful stuff from delightful step-person who came into my life as an older teenager, and I have my own troubled relationship with my mother.

    I wonder why all this is so hard, and if partly it's the commercial festival which has spoiled it. It grates on me as an insincere commercialised 'happy families' thing - the sort of thing that if you didn't have a happy family when you were young, rubs your nose in it and makes you pay for the privilege as you have to do the commercial stuff so as not to offend and upset.

    It's also a sort of 'normalising' thing - it seems to uphold a norm in a way that excludes a lot of people.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    You make it sound like Mum is an unwilling victim of these machinations.

    I suspect that, in some cases, she may be! My mother certainly didn't want breakfast-in-bed.
  • WandererWanderer Shipmate
    This Sunday my church gave out flyers with a small candle. The flyer, titled "Mothering Sunday"invites people to next Sunday's service "of reflection, thankfulness and forgiveness" and suggests people light the candle: "in forgiveness, in remembering, in forgiving, in acknowledging the myriad of mixed feelings this day may bring ". I think that does a good job of covering all bases. I know our vicar had a problematic relationship with her father ( mentioned in a sermon around one Father's day); I feel this appreciation that such mixed feelings may be true regarding either parent is very wise.
    In previous years the church had bunches of flowers for the kids to give their mothers and also encouraged people to give them to other women in the congregation. Although I appreciated my sons giving me the flowers I'm not sure I would have appreciated being "other women" in this scenario; it seems rather second class.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Aravis wrote: »
    Our vicar usually preaches on Mothering Sunday, but this year it’s my turn. I haven’t worked out what to say yet. I am very aware that, for a variety of reasons, many people in the congregation will not particularly look forward to this day.
    We make sure there are daffodils for everyone in the congregation.

    Personally I would just prefer a preacher to just ignore it - I certainly wouldn't want flowers for it even if they were for everyone. It still has that 'fake happy' feeling Louise alludes to, and it's not like it's an actual church feast that has to be mentioned. Just let church be a place where the creep of commercial holidays doesn't happen.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Spike wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    Another reason a lot of people are absent is that many childless people find the day difficult.

    Many childless people are childfree by choice and don't find it difficult due to not having children - more likely to be estrangement from or difficult relationships with their mothers.

    But many aren’t

    I know, but a lot of Mothering Sunday content tends to assume all childlessness is a tragedy when many people consider it to be a positive thing. The attitude of pity is much worse.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    Just let church be a place where the creep of commercial holidays doesn't happen.

    Mothering Sunday has been part of the liturgical year since the Middle Ages. You may as well say churches shouldn’t celebrate Christmas because of its creeping commercialisation.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited March 2023
    OK - so can you or someone else post links to eg. 15th, 16th and 17th century liturgies for it? So we can see what this tradition was actually like over time before the commercial event was invented?

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it was part of the post Reformation church of Scotland until very recent times. And I haven't seen a pre 1560 mention of it, though it may be there and just not something I've seen as I tend to work on the post 1560 period.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    My favorite way of handling it was a one sentence reference from the preacher. She made it relevant, appropriate, not a stretch, and extremely brief. That way it was clear she had not forgotten. She noted it for those who wanted to hear it. But she mostly covered stuff that was more relevant.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Louise wrote: »
    OK - so can you or someone else post links to eg. 15th, 16th and 17th century liturgies for it? So we can see what this tradition was actually like over time before the commercial event was invented?
    <snip>
    There’s nothing in the liturgy of the Church of England from 1549 onwards.
  • Unlike Guy Fawkes' Day (Gunpowder Treason!)

    Does MS's alter ego, Refreshment Sunday, get a look-in?
  • Louise wrote: »

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it was part of the post Reformation church of Scotland until very recent times. And I haven't seen a pre 1560 mention of it, though it may be there and just not something I've seen as I tend to work on the post 1560 period.

    In fairness, with regard to the Kirk, post-Reformation celebration of Christmas is very recent too.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Pomona wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    Another reason a lot of people are absent is that many childless people find the day difficult.

    Many childless people are childfree by choice and don't find it difficult due to not having children - more likely to be estrangement from or difficult relationships with their mothers.

    But many aren’t

    I know, but a lot of Mothering Sunday content tends to assume all childlessness is a tragedy when many people consider it to be a positive thing. The attitude of pity is much worse.

    Yes I know that there are a many people who choose not to have children and I’m very happy for them. However, for those of us who didn’t choose that it can be difficult, I don’t think it’s a “tragedy” and I find the expression “attitude of pity” a bit strong.

    To be honest, I find the attitude towards childless people in church on Mothering Sunday to be a little patronising, especially when after all the flowers have been given out to all the mothers, grandmothers, aunties, Godmothers etc, they then give the remainder out to “all the ladies who haven’t got any flowers” and then all the men in the congregation.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Pomona wrote: »
    Just let church be a place where the creep of commercial holidays doesn't happen.

    Mothering Sunday has been part of the liturgical year since the Middle Ages. You may as well say churches shouldn’t celebrate Christmas because of its creeping commercialisation.

    You are absolutely right, but it’s worth remembering that some people find Christmas difficult.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    I think it would be more illuminating if @Alan29 explained what exactly his friends think is bad form about what he writes. Certainly it wouldn't be accurate to suggest that single dads exist as often as single mums or face the same kinds of societal pressures.

    I have never been able to get a rational explanation. Responses have generally been pithy, short and profane. I suspect it is about a bloke invading the sisters' space.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    edited March 2023
    Spike wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    Another reason a lot of people are absent is that many childless people find the day difficult.

    Is that a guess or has there been research? Presumable the childless had mothers.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »
    Kwesi wrote: »
    Isn't the point that the mother in question is one's mother church?

    Yes it is, but many (most?) churches nowadays seem to be channelling the secular Mother’s Day.

    Which is why IME so many families are absent from church on Mothering Sunday ... either the children have been busy "being nice to mum" by making her a late breakfast; or (if said children are adults), "We'll take Mum out for lunch so there won't be time for church". Cynic, moi?

    Another reason a lot of people are absent is that many childless people find the day difficult.

    Is that a guess or has there been research?

    I’m not sure of any official research, but I’ve spoken to plenty of people for whom that is the case.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    but it’s worth remembering that some people find Christmas difficult.

    Puts up hand.

    Secular christmas could have been designed to make my life a misery on all kind of fronts - and I don't want that in church. I'm from a tradition that for centuries didn't do feast days but I would have thought one of the benefits of a set liturgy would be having a good reason to do, say or sing things that can be a bit different to the modern emphasis?

    I checked out the 1662 BCP and it speaks of the fourth Sunday in Lent and the epistle won't be going on a Hallmark card with flowers any time soon - it's basically covenant of law/covenant of grace teaching from Galatians and the gospel wasn't anything to do with families at all. So I think if you're going to try to play the 'tradition' card then you need to account for the fact that you can be absolutely traditional and not do any of the modern problematic stuff. (You can do other older problematic stuff instead 😉)


  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    Louise wrote: »

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it was part of the post Reformation church of Scotland until very recent times. And I haven't seen a pre 1560 mention of it, though it may be there and just not something I've seen as I tend to work on the post 1560 period.

    In fairness, with regard to the Kirk, post-Reformation celebration of Christmas is very recent too.

    I've not come across anything about either Mothering Sunday or Christmas in C18th or early C19th Session records. The "occasion" I come across most often is a Sunday designated to give thanks for the Harvest, although what form Harvest Thanksgiving took, I have no idea. Presumably "thanksgiving" was the focus of the lecture / sermon / prayers / psalms. I doubt they were decorating the church.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    Just let church be a place where the creep of commercial holidays doesn't happen.

    Mothering Sunday has been part of the liturgical year since the Middle Ages. You may as well say churches shouldn’t celebrate Christmas because of its creeping commercialisation.

    Mothering Sunday as part of the liturgical year has nothing to do with motherhood though. Commercially it's Mother's Day which is completely different. Mothering Sunday is also not part of the post-Reformation liturgical calendar in the Church of England anyway, whereas Christmas is.
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