For me also, in the south of England, mummy and daddy, then mum and dad.
My grandparents from the south of England were Granny and Grandad. They started writing 'Gran and Grandad' on cards we got older, but we still always said Granny and Grandad. My grandmother from the north of England (who was widowed long before I was born) was Nana. She also started writing 'Nan' in cards as we got older, but we still said Nana. We didn't see our grandparents often though. Maybe if they'd lived nearby and we'd often seen them, we might have started saying Gran and Nan.
This is the Wiki phonetic transcription of Betws-y-Coed, [ˈbɛtʊs ə ˈkɔɨd], so w is given as ʊ, which I think is a slack u sound, and the y as schwa. The ɨ I don't know.
ʊ is like the 'oo' in 'book' (in an RP accent).
ɨ is like saying 'ee' with your tongue further back. From the Wikipedia page on this sound, it is like the vowel in 'lip' with a South African accent, or like the vowel in 'rude' in a South East English accent.
Here is the Wikipedia page on IPA, so you see where all the sounds are in the mouth, and each sound has its own Wikipedia page.
Though 'coid' would be perfectly acceptable. The ɨ only occurs in Northern Welsh dialects, being replaced by i elsewhere.
Ah, okay. I don't know Welsh, other than a few random words, and the national anthem, though now I think of it, the woodland chapel at St Beuno's is Capel-y-Coed, and is pronounced capel uh coid. Though generally by English people with RP accents, so I never know how accurate it is!
The places that gives most non-Welsh real problems are Bwlch, Ynysbwl and Machynlleth
If we could get people to grasp that Welsh has more vowel symbols than English (a, e, i, o, u, w, y) rather than lacking vowels (as commonly claimed) they'd struggle a lot less.
I actually was taught as a child (in the US) that the vowels are “a, e, i, o and u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.”
Y is frequently used as a vowel in English, especially at the end of words, such as “frequently.” And the sound represented by w in English is really more or less a very quickly pronounced “oo” sound. (Likewise, y as at the beginning of “yes” is more or less a very quickly pronounced “ee” sound.)
Indeed. They're semivowels. In English Y is indeed frequently a vowel, but people tend not to be taught that for some reason. W in English can't form a syllable without another vowel; in Welsh it can, hence bwlch, cwm, trwm, cwmwl and so on.
The places that gives most non-Welsh real problems are Bwlch, Ynysbwl and Machynlleth
If we could get people to grasp that Welsh has more vowel symbols than English (a, e, i, o, u, w, y) rather than lacking vowels (as commonly claimed) they'd struggle a lot less.
Reminds me of the comedian Mark Steele berating the good citizens of Shrewsbury because they can't decide between themselves exactly how to pronounce the name of their town, while less than ten miles away across the Welsh border there were place names with two dozen consecutive consonants that nobody had any trouble pronouncing.
I had mum and dad and nan and grandad (southeast England with northern parents, I wonder if nan is a working class northernism in my case). My children called us mummy and daddy til their teens then mum and dad.
Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
How interesting , thank you. Both my parents’ families were Lancashire mill workers.
We’re Grandma and Grandpa, my parents were Mum and Dad (Granny and Grandad to our children) and my grandparents were Nanny and Granfer (the other set both died before I was born, sadly).
Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
“Nanny,” “Nanna” and “Nan” are fairly common names for grandmothers around here (American South). My sister is “Nan” to her grandkids. (Her husband is “Pop.”)
I am Granny and my husband is Grandad. The other GPs are Grandma and Grandpa, but thanks to various remarriages, my grandchildren also have Nanny and Pops, and also Oma and Opa, who are their cousin’s grandparents. Anyone else, their step dad’s Mum, for example, is called by their first name.
I called my parents Mum and Dad, and Mum’s Mum was Nan. She lived in the south of England. I also had Grandma and Grandad.
When my daughter is cross with me, or exasperated, she calls me Mother. Otherwise it is Mum, but her children still call her Mummy at 15 and 12.
I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense
The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>
I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense
The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>
You're thinking about spelling rather than the sounds themselves. There doesn't need to be a written 'w' for a 'w' to be present. Say out loud 'Who is this?' There is a 'w' sound between 'who' and 'is'. Say the 'w' sound slowly. You are putting your lips together, as in an 'oo' sound. That is why it is a vowel - it's an oo sound, but the lips are close enough together to make a consonant sound when switching to another vowel.
Same with 'y.' It is an ee sound, but the tongue is so close to the top of the mouth that a consonant sound is formed when switching to another vowel. Say out loud 'He is here.' Between 'he' and 'is', there is a 'y' sound. It comes from the ee switching to another vowel.
More generally I'm kind of fascinated by the anglicization of place names. Once you're some distance from English-speaking lands, you have to be a large enough place to get your name changed.
Having learned Danish, I now sometimes have to consciously make myself say "Copenhagen" instead of "København" so that people know where the hell I'm talking about. I don't think I have the same issue with any other city or town in Denmark because they were never significant enough to the English consciousness to be anglicized. There's just mispronunciations, such as my own former mangling of Odense as "oh-DENSE".
I like watching the reverse process, where American (and other) placenames get recast into Vietnamese. Thus "Ca-Li," "Chi-Ca" [go], San Lui, Tes-ak (Texas), and streets like "MAhK-noe-leeeer" (Magnolia) and MAHK-kuh-tuh (MacArthur).
I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense
The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>
H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second. It's one of Mother Nature's little tricks. Same with Hey you!
I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense
The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>
H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second.
I would have said that in the first it's silent. It adds nothing that "a" doesn't already have.
I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense
The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>
H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second.
I would have said that in the first it's silent. It adds nothing that "a" doesn't already have.
I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense
The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>
H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second.
I would have said that in the first it's silent. It adds nothing that "a" doesn't already have.
Exactly!
So it's not a vowel, any more than the "t" in "merlot" is a vowel.
It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.
You're talking about spelling, not the sounds themselves. We use certain letters in spelling to indicate a certain sound, and this can be unrelated to the speech sound they usually represent. There is no h in ah. We just put it there to indicate that it's a long a, not the a in cat.
A g can also be used in spelling to alter a vowel (eg. sign), but the speech sound g (voiced velar stop) is not a vowel.
w and y are a particular type of consonant known as an approximant. They are also known as semivowels, for the reasons I was demonstrating in my previous post. Maybe the Wikipedia pages make it clearer. It is interesting, if you are interested in that sort of stuff.
I've noticed my South Wales nephew-in-law has an interesting way of using "y" in such words as "year" which is somehow more of a consonant than in the English I learned in Kent. Something like "yuh", further back in the mouth.
Also, we have a Welsh place name in South London - Pen Coed, the head of the wood, aka Penge = the English settlers thought the suffix was their "ge" or "region", as in Lyminge
I've noticed my South Wales nephew-in-law has an interesting way of using "y" in such words as "year" which is somehow more of a consonant than in the English I learned in Kent. Something like "yuh", further back in the mouth.
Also, we have a Welsh place name in South London - Pen Coed, the head of the wood, aka Penge = the English settlers thought the suffix was their "ge" or "region", as in Lyminge
In some southern Welsh Englsh accents the words 'year' 'ear' 'here' and 'your' are practically indistinguishable.
There's also an entire London Underground map that's had all the place names 'translated' in to Welsh, some a bit tenuous 🤔
Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
“Nanny,” “Nanna” and “Nan” are fairly common names for grandmothers around here (American South). My sister is “Nan” to her grandkids. (Her husband is “Pop.”)
In the UK it all depends on upbringing and background. For some the word "Nanny" has two possible meanings - a female goat or a trained live-in childcarer. "Nana" (sometimes spelled with two Ns) is the dog in Peter Pan. "Nan" is how some describe the bread you get with Indian food.
I remember reading Jilly Cooper's tongue-in-cheek book Class years ago, and she said that the upper middle classes call their grandmother 'Grandma,' while lower middle classes call their grandmother 'Nana,' which confuses the upper middle classes, because for them, Nana is the dog in Peter Pan. (Or something like that - it was more humorous the way she wrote it!)
Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
“Nanny,” “Nanna” and “Nan” are fairly common names for grandmothers around here (American South). My sister is “Nan” to her grandkids. (Her husband is “Pop.”)
In the UK it all depends on upbringing and background. For some the word "Nanny" has two possible meanings - a female goat or a trained live-in childcarer. "Nana" (sometimes spelled with two Ns) is the dog in Peter Pan. "Nan" is how some describe the bread you get with Indian food.
All those meanings are present here, except that the Indian bread is Naan, and if the female goat is meant, the term is “nanny goat.” Doesn’t keep any of the words from being used for a grandmother, though “nanny” probably isn’t as common as it was 50 years ago.
Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
“Nanny,” “Nanna” and “Nan” are fairly common names for grandmothers around here (American South). My sister is “Nan” to her grandkids. (Her husband is “Pop.”)
In the UK it all depends on upbringing and background. For some the word "Nanny" has two possible meanings - a female goat or a trained live-in childcarer. "Nana" (sometimes spelled with two Ns) is the dog in Peter Pan. "Nan" is how some describe the bread you get with Indian food.
All those meanings are present here, except that the Indian bread is Naan, and if the female goat is meant, the term is “nanny goat.” Doesn’t keep any of the words from being used for a grandmother, though “nanny” probably isn’t as common as it was 50 years ago.
Hmmm - my mother and her mother and grandmother before her were nanas.
Nan isn't pronounced the same as Naan. Naan has a long (as in ah, not as in make) 'a' sound. Nan has a short 'a'.
Nan isn't pronounced the same as Naan. Naan has a long (as in ah, not as in make) 'a' sound. Nan has a short 'a'.
That’s the case here—Naan rhymes (more or less) with swan, and nan rhymes with can. But given the “taco” discussion, I didn’t want to make guesses about elsewhere.
I've found that whether a person refers to Mum or Mom is quite a reliable indicator of which side of the Atlantic they are on. In Wales, of course, though, it's Mam.
Only people on the American continent seem to say Mom. I find it odd because little babies when they babble say "Mum Mum". However, their parents say Mom and the children are taught what to say.
My mother came from Lancashire, my father from Wales, and we called both sets of grandparents Nana and Grampy. I always thought these were Welsh terms, but comments here have got me wondering if they were Lancastrian.
I used to think that, and then discovered that 'Mom' is used quite a bit in the Midlands too.
Are you sure that isn't just 'Mum' spoken with a Brummy accent?
Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media. It may well be Mum with a Brummy accent, but if it is written 'Mom,' then it is 'Mom.' Shortened forms do tend to be written phonetically.
My mother came from Lancashire, my father from Wales, and we called both sets of grandparents Nana and Grampy. I always thought these were Welsh terms, but comments here have got me wondering if they were Lancastrian.
Nain and Taid in the N., Mam-gu and Tad-gu in the S., mainly.
... Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media ...
I'm inclined to think that might be an American spell-checker or predictive text. I don't think any Brits would instinctively spell "Mum" as "Mom" - I certainly wouldn't.
I used to think that, and then discovered that 'Mom' is used quite a bit in the Midlands too.
Are you sure that isn't just 'Mum' spoken with a Brummy accent?
Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media. It may well be Mum with a Brummy accent, but if it is written 'Mom,' then it is 'Mom.' Shortened forms do tend to be written phonetically.
... Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media ...
I'm inclined to think that might be an American spell-checker or predictive text. I don't think any Brits would instinctively spell "Mum" as "Mom" - I certainly wouldn't.
Heh, I'm surprised people are disbelieving me! You could google rather than imagine. But it's worth pointing out that when I state something, especially something linguistic, I have generally been very thorough checking it, and if there is a doubt, I express that doubt. If I had simply heard people say what sounded like Mom in their accent, I would not have assumed they were spelling it Mom. And if I had just seen it now and then spelt 'Mom' and never talked to anyone about it, I wouldn't assume that was specifically a Midlands spelling. I am someone who needs to have had multiple conversations and read articles and such before I will accept something isn't simply an individual's quirk or an error. (In fact, at uni, whenever my linguistics teachers stated something about a certain pronunciation being Scottish or American, I would go onto my LiveJournal and ask all my Scottish and American friends if this were true, and get them to make voice recordings to prove it! )
The first time I encountered a British person online talking about her 'Mom' was about fifteen years ago, and I immediately noticed and asked her about it. She said that yes, that is how she spells it, and no, it is not an Americanism, and where she lives this is how people spell it. She was from Birmingham. She wasn't the kind to make spelling errors. Her spelling was good. Is good. I am still friends with her on Facebook. However, I didn't know from that one conversation whether she was really representative of where she lives.
However, since then, in various Facebook groups I'm in, there will sometimes be talk about how Americans use 'Mom' and Brits use 'Mum' or 'Mam,' and then quite a few people from the Midlands speak up and say that actually, where they're from, Mom is the norm. And sometimes in a British group, someone will talk about their 'Mom,' and people will 'correct' them, or comment on their Americanism, and they will invariably say it is not an Americanism, but the way people spell it in the Midlands. And there will be discussion about it - including the discussion that their pronunciation may have influenced the spelling, but nevertheless, it is definitely a deliberate spelling, and not an accidental usage of the American spelling.
Comments
My grandparents from the south of England were Granny and Grandad. They started writing 'Gran and Grandad' on cards we got older, but we still always said Granny and Grandad. My grandmother from the north of England (who was widowed long before I was born) was Nana. She also started writing 'Nan' in cards as we got older, but we still said Nana. We didn't see our grandparents often though. Maybe if they'd lived nearby and we'd often seen them, we might have started saying Gran and Nan.
Ah, okay. I don't know Welsh, other than a few random words, and the national anthem, though now I think of it, the woodland chapel at St Beuno's is Capel-y-Coed, and is pronounced capel uh coid. Though generally by English people with RP accents, so I never know how accurate it is!
Y is frequently used as a vowel in English, especially at the end of words, such as “frequently.” And the sound represented by w in English is really more or less a very quickly pronounced “oo” sound. (Likewise, y as at the beginning of “yes” is more or less a very quickly pronounced “ee” sound.)
Reminds me of the comedian Mark Steele berating the good citizens of Shrewsbury because they can't decide between themselves exactly how to pronounce the name of their town, while less than ten miles away across the Welsh border there were place names with two dozen consecutive consonants that nobody had any trouble pronouncing.
Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
I called my parents Mum and Dad, and Mum’s Mum was Nan. She lived in the south of England. I also had Grandma and Grandad.
When my daughter is cross with me, or exasperated, she calls me Mother. Otherwise it is Mum, but her children still call her Mummy at 15 and 12.
The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>
You're thinking about spelling rather than the sounds themselves. There doesn't need to be a written 'w' for a 'w' to be present. Say out loud 'Who is this?' There is a 'w' sound between 'who' and 'is'. Say the 'w' sound slowly. You are putting your lips together, as in an 'oo' sound. That is why it is a vowel - it's an oo sound, but the lips are close enough together to make a consonant sound when switching to another vowel.
Same with 'y.' It is an ee sound, but the tongue is so close to the top of the mouth that a consonant sound is formed when switching to another vowel. Say out loud 'He is here.' Between 'he' and 'is', there is a 'y' sound. It comes from the ee switching to another vowel.
...and then having an English staff member on a train repeatedly try to correct me and tell me I'd been to Conway.
I wasn't having it. I was staying at a Welsh guesthouse with a lovely woman who was from Conwy, thanks very much.
(who was also giving me a crash course in Welsh, though I remember about 4 words)
Having learned Danish, I now sometimes have to consciously make myself say "Copenhagen" instead of "København" so that people know where the hell I'm talking about. I don't think I have the same issue with any other city or town in Denmark because they were never significant enough to the English consciousness to be anglicized. There's just mispronunciations, such as my own former mangling of Odense as "oh-DENSE".
H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second. It's one of Mother Nature's little tricks. Same with Hey you!
I would have said that in the first it's silent. It adds nothing that "a" doesn't already have.
Exactly!
So it's not a vowel, any more than the "t" in "merlot" is a vowel.
What, you mean it sounds like "father" where the "a" does the same thing on its own just fine?
Or indeed, the second half of "ah-ha"?
I think you should quit while you're only slightly behind...
You're talking about spelling, not the sounds themselves. We use certain letters in spelling to indicate a certain sound, and this can be unrelated to the speech sound they usually represent. There is no h in ah. We just put it there to indicate that it's a long a, not the a in cat.
A g can also be used in spelling to alter a vowel (eg. sign), but the speech sound g (voiced velar stop) is not a vowel.
Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Think of the effort the poor little letter has to do on its own in the examples you put forward.
Exactly the same amount as any number of "a"s do without an "h" being anywhere in sight.
So you've decided to dig. I'd consider explaining the Great Vowel Shift but I'm trying to prepare dinner.
Also, we have a Welsh place name in South London - Pen Coed, the head of the wood, aka Penge = the English settlers thought the suffix was their "ge" or "region", as in Lyminge
I have ours nicely ready. Early tonight, too cold to be standing outside over the bbq. Far from dug in, save for the defence of innocent letters
In some southern Welsh Englsh accents the words 'year' 'ear' 'here' and 'your' are practically indistinguishable.
There's also an entire London Underground map that's had all the place names 'translated' in to Welsh, some a bit tenuous 🤔
In the UK it all depends on upbringing and background. For some the word "Nanny" has two possible meanings - a female goat or a trained live-in childcarer. "Nana" (sometimes spelled with two Ns) is the dog in Peter Pan. "Nan" is how some describe the bread you get with Indian food.
Hmmm - my mother and her mother and grandmother before her were nanas.
Nan isn't pronounced the same as Naan. Naan has a long (as in ah, not as in make) 'a' sound. Nan has a short 'a'.
Both Dad and Nan may come originally from Welsh.
Not here it doesn't.
I used to think that, and then discovered that 'Mom' is used quite a bit in the Midlands too.
Well, it is written 'Mom.' I come across it all the time on social media. It may well be Mum with a Brummy accent, but if it is written 'Mom,' then it is 'Mom.' Shortened forms do tend to be written phonetically.
Nain and Taid in the N., Mam-gu and Tad-gu in the S., mainly.
Nor here (American South). And @Gee D, @mousethief is in the American Pacific Northwest.
Righty-o, guv.
Heh, I'm surprised people are disbelieving me! You could google rather than imagine. But it's worth pointing out that when I state something, especially something linguistic, I have generally been very thorough checking it, and if there is a doubt, I express that doubt. If I had simply heard people say what sounded like Mom in their accent, I would not have assumed they were spelling it Mom. And if I had just seen it now and then spelt 'Mom' and never talked to anyone about it, I wouldn't assume that was specifically a Midlands spelling. I am someone who needs to have had multiple conversations and read articles and such before I will accept something isn't simply an individual's quirk or an error. (In fact, at uni, whenever my linguistics teachers stated something about a certain pronunciation being Scottish or American, I would go onto my LiveJournal and ask all my Scottish and American friends if this were true, and get them to make voice recordings to prove it!
The first time I encountered a British person online talking about her 'Mom' was about fifteen years ago, and I immediately noticed and asked her about it. She said that yes, that is how she spells it, and no, it is not an Americanism, and where she lives this is how people spell it. She was from Birmingham. She wasn't the kind to make spelling errors. Her spelling was good. Is good. I am still friends with her on Facebook. However, I didn't know from that one conversation whether she was really representative of where she lives.
However, since then, in various Facebook groups I'm in, there will sometimes be talk about how Americans use 'Mom' and Brits use 'Mum' or 'Mam,' and then quite a few people from the Midlands speak up and say that actually, where they're from, Mom is the norm. And sometimes in a British group, someone will talk about their 'Mom,' and people will 'correct' them, or comment on their Americanism, and they will invariably say it is not an Americanism, but the way people spell it in the Midlands. And there will be discussion about it - including the discussion that their pronunciation may have influenced the spelling, but nevertheless, it is definitely a deliberate spelling, and not an accidental usage of the American spelling.