Couldn't agree more, especially in public space, it becomes a duty if not to speak out but to stand with the persecuted and comfort them with words where possible.
What Tutu said is the same fucking thing I am saying. Cluebats available, should you need one again.
A good few years ago I heard a talk by Prof.Geoff Palmer about the Caribbean trade.
Until then I had never really thought about what went on out there. It was a very special wake up moment. I had never really thought about the conditions which had made the merchants of Glasgow so rich.
As a child I had heard of prejudice against Anglo-Indians although I was not sure who those people might be, but they were around in the working class areas in the industrial West of Scotland, since in Imperial times there had been a lot of connection between Clydeside and India with the building of locomotives for Indian railways and shipping for the Irrawaddy flotilla Company
However at that time in the industrial West of Scotland the great cultural clash was that between Catholics and Protestants - really nothing else mattered much at that time. I won't go into the prejudice which was there on both sides. Since I had a foot in both camps I was aware of what both sides would say about the other and it has given me since then an absolute horror both of religious and racial prejudice.
I particularly remember speaking with an old man who recounted all the difficulties which he had felt being a Catholic at the turn of the 20th century, but when our conversation turned to the name of a one other particular person, my old man was able to say with somewhat of a sneer 'Of course he was a Jewboy'.
Thank you for sharing your views. Be assured, if you wish, that I would never use the term 'chinky' myself. However when I heard people using the term I got the impression that it was a term of endearment. I did not know that 'chinky' was a racial slur applied to the eyes.
Now I would ask would the people who used the word 'chinky' have been better not to patronise the Chinese takeaway. .For the people I was talking about the 'chinky' meal was a treat which they obviously looked forward to.
Their pleasure isn't the point. The point is in respecting other people. If we banned disrespectful people, every business in the country would fail. It doesn't mean we cannot try to educate.
Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?
I suppose what you have to ask yourself is: if a Chinese acquaintance was in earshot would you feel comfortable using that kind of language (obviously this only works for those who have a sense of embarrassment when it comes to racism but I'm reasonably sure that includes most folk here)?
Knowing several Chinese people (as in, people who are citizens of the Peoples Republic of China - we're a university linked research group, so a large proportion of our students are Chinese long with a variety of visiting scientists) their first response would be "you're talking about a meal that's a westernised amalgam of selected dishes from several different regions of China, and some places outside China, please don't equate that food with what my mother cooks".
Which brings up the question of the extent to which our cultures appropriate selected items from other cultures and attach national or ethnic labels to them. In food, we have in addition to 'Chinese', 'Indian' (often derived from dishes originating in Pakistan, Bangladesh and other places outside India), 'Italian' and don't get me started on what passes for sushi in many 'Japanese' restaurants. Is taking someone else's culture, mucking it around and serving it up as something that it isn't racist in it's own right?
It is racist if white people open ethnic restaurants where ethnic people struggle to do so. Is it racist to alter food? Not by itself. It is messed up to call Taco Bell Mexican IMO, but go to Southern California and real Mexicans eat there, so...
I'm unaware of any racism in me and I suspect I am blind to many failings there. At first I was going to write that there's an Indian in our church home group and I don't remotely think of her as foreign. In fact there are three Indians and a Nigerian so maybe I genuinely don't notice.
On the other hand I have massive difficulties with people who speak differently. That may boil down to 'I can't be bothered to make the effort to understand you' (includes Glaswegians as well as let's say Indians) but also include 'if you are a 2nd/3rd generation immigrant and have decided not to sound like an ordinary English person, then you are excluding yourself and I will honour your choice'.
Glaswegians are natives to Britain and are speaking English in their native way. Whilst I don't have a problem with having a basic "standard" version of a language, I do have a problem with people disrespecting regional variation. Is a Cockney "excluding themselves" ? A Geordie? What about a posh mumbler? And since there are all these natural variations, one could consider a person who speaks in the so-called neutral tone to be excluding themselves.
BTW, the biggest reason people of foreign extraction keep accents and patterns a generation of two in is, in part, because general society does not accept them as British. Why conform if you're not allowed in anyway?
So
The uk has people who hold Blatant racist opinions.
I have some of those people in my family.
What can I do about it?
Literally, what?
(Beyond weep)
This plague has ripped our extended family apart and to be clear these are not unintelligent people.
My gran was racist. I did not directly confronter her about this, because of respect for elders and because she treated individuals as people, regardless of colour. Hoever, I do wish I had spoken to her about it.
I think countering the racism with reality can help some people. Making it clear you do not share their belief is a start and is something that can be done gently in situations one mightn't feel comfortable being more confrontational. Silence is complicity, but shouting isn't necessarily productive.
Age nor position, status or social situation confers no immunity in my book. All are confronted. Publicly.
If we allow any breaks for anything we simply collude in the abuse. Family member or not, old or young, they come quickly to understand the fact I believe their attitude/behaviour to be wrong.
I agree that we shouldn't let things go, I was illustrating the understanding that it can be difficult.
I'm unaware of any racism in me and I suspect I am blind to many failings there. At first I was going to write that there's an Indian in our church home group and I don't remotely think of her as foreign. In fact there are three Indians and a Nigerian so maybe I genuinely don't notice.
On the other hand I have massive difficulties with people who speak differently. That may boil down to 'I can't be bothered to make the effort to understand you' (includes Glaswegians as well as let's say Indians) but also include 'if you are a 2nd/3rd generation immigrant and have decided not to sound like an ordinary English person, then you are excluding yourself and I will honour your choice'.
Glaswegians are natives to Britain and are speaking English in their native way. Whilst I don't have a problem with having a basic "standard" version of a language, I do have a problem with people disrespecting regional variation. Is a Cockney "excluding themselves" ? A Geordie? What about a posh mumbler? And since there are all these natural variations, one could consider a person who speaks in the so-called neutral tone to be excluding themselves.
BTW, the biggest reason people of foreign extraction keep accents and patterns a generation of two in is, in part, because general society does not accept them as British. Why conform if you're not allowed in anyway?
There is a distinctive Lancashire-Pakistani accent I've experienced teaching in the county, no less intelligible than any other northern accent, and considerably more than Glaswegian. There's also an open question as to whether Glaswegians are actually always speaking English or whether it is in fact Broad Scots. That said, as a student I always found it a bit frustrating that the Student Loans Company was based in Glasgow because I really did have trouble understanding the call handlers and after a certain point it gets embarrassing to keep asking them to repeat themselves.
On the other hand I have massive difficulties with people who speak differently.
I find myself feeling hostile toward people who speak with a Vietnamese or Cambodian accent. I don't like myself for feeling that way.
I worked with a young man from Russia who spoke English with only a barely perceptible accent. But I noticed as he got older, his Russian accent grew stronger. I wrote that off to his being around Russian speakers at home.
My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.
BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.
Knowing your very broad definition of anti-semitism, I think it's necessary to ask what this "casual anti-semitism" consists of.
Using the word "yids", referring to someone as "of course, they're one of the chosen", describing someone as "looking Jewish", ditto certain items of clothing, etc. Does any of that qualify for your definition of anti-semitism, or am I over-reacting?
As to the BTW, they're not wrong at least so far as I can see from your posts on the ship.
You are, of course, spot on: Deeply suspect! Likes classical music, prefers formal liturgy, sends thank-you letters, abhors bad manners and rudeness, opens doors for others, white, male, ex-public school - how could I be anything else but a right-wing bigot?
I don't actually think, lilbuddha, that the people who talked about the 'chinky' meal were meaning any disrespect to those who provided them. That was the word in their (perhaps somewhat limited ) dialect for a takeaway meal from a 'Chinese' restaurant. It may be that their pleasure in the meal itself is beside the point, but had they decided not to go for the 'chinky' meal, it would not have helped financially those who made the meal.
My way of 'educating' the people who used the expression 'chinky' was not to use the expression myself
I don't actually think, lilbuddha, that the people who talked about the 'chinky' meal were meaning any disrespect to those who provided them. That was the word in their (perhaps somewhat limited ) dialect for a takeaway meal from a 'Chinese' restaurant. It may be that their pleasure in the meal itself is beside the point, but had they decided not to go for the 'chinky' meal, it would not have helped financially those who made the meal.
My way of 'educating' the people who used the expression 'chinky' was not to use the expression myself
That isn't quite enough. I've a friend named Jonathan and, despite him always referring to himself as Jonathan, several of his friends called him John or Johnny. He didn't like it, but didn't say anything and they didn't clue in.
Forthview, if you had friends who were casually tossing around the n-word, would your response be to ignore it from them and just not use it yourself? The use of "chinky" is almost, if not as, bad as that.
My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.
BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.
Knowing your very broad definition of anti-semitism, I think it's necessary to ask what this "casual anti-semitism" consists of.
Using the word "yids", referring to someone as "of course, they're one of the chosen", describing someone as "looking Jewish", ditto certain items of clothing, etc. Does any of that qualify for your definition of anti-semitism, or am I over-reacting?
No, you're not overreacting (though given your past history you can hardly blame me for wondering). That's bloody awful and if I encountered fellow party members behaving like that I'd be all for kicking them out pronto. I've never encountered anyone behaving like that.
As to the BTW, they're not wrong at least so far as I can see from your posts on the ship.
You are, of course, spot on: Deeply suspect! Likes classical music, prefers formal liturgy, sends thank-you letters, abhors bad manners and rudeness, opens doors for others, white, male, ex-public school - how could I be anything else but a right-wing bigot?
I was more thinking of your constant justifications for government actions, but feel free to make things up if it makes you happier.
70 years ago my mother would have called a certain colour n....r brown. At the time I would have accepted that as the name of a certain shade of brown. Somehow or another I have never used that word myself for that shade of brown, but when I was learning the English language that was an expression that I would have heard. I have never heard anyone of my friends use the n'word. Earlier on lilbuddha said she had a problem with people who did not respect regional variations. The people who used 'chinky' would have considered that as a 'regional' variation., without being aware of the term 'regional variation'.Although they would frequently use the fuck word and also the cunt word, these would not have been seen as suitable to be used in polite society whereas 'chinky' would.
None of my friends would have used the 'chinky' word and none of them would have talked in familiar terms about the 'Paki' shop.
My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.
BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.
Knowing your very broad definition of anti-semitism, I think it's necessary to ask what this "casual anti-semitism" consists of.
Using the word "yids", referring to someone as "of course, they're one of the chosen", describing someone as "looking Jewish", ditto certain items of clothing, etc. Does any of that qualify for your definition of anti-semitism, or am I over-reacting?
No, you're not overreacting (though given your past history you can hardly blame me for wondering). That's bloody awful and if I encountered fellow party members behaving like that I'd be all for kicking them out pronto. I've never encountered anyone behaving like that.
How dare you! "Given your past history" ? As what? A father, widower, musician, man? You don't know me and, as far as I'm aware, we've never met. Do you make it your life's work to jump to, and publish, objectionable conclusions about complete strangers, or do you reserve your obnoxious sweeping generalisations for The Ship in general and me in particular?
My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.
BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.
Knowing your very broad definition of anti-semitism, I think it's necessary to ask what this "casual anti-semitism" consists of.
Using the word "yids", referring to someone as "of course, they're one of the chosen", describing someone as "looking Jewish", ditto certain items of clothing, etc. Does any of that qualify for your definition of anti-semitism, or am I over-reacting?
No, you're not overreacting (though given your past history you can hardly blame me for wondering). That's bloody awful and if I encountered fellow party members behaving like that I'd be all for kicking them out pronto. I've never encountered anyone behaving like that.
How dare you! "Given your past history" ? As what? A father, widower, musician, man? You don't know me and, as far as I'm aware, we've never met. Do you make it your life's work to jump to, and publish, objectionable conclusions about complete strangers, or do you reserve your obnoxious sweeping generalisations for The Ship in general and me in particular?
No one who posts on any given site, especially one like the Ship, is a complete stranger. We all have history here. If you want to argue misinterpretation, that is reasonable. But one's posting history is indeed a representation.
The impression I get from your posts is definitely right of centre.
My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.
BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.
Knowing your very broad definition of anti-semitism, I think it's necessary to ask what this "casual anti-semitism" consists of.
Using the word "yids", referring to someone as "of course, they're one of the chosen", describing someone as "looking Jewish", ditto certain items of clothing, etc. Does any of that qualify for your definition of anti-semitism, or am I over-reacting?
No, you're not overreacting (though given your past history you can hardly blame me for wondering). That's bloody awful and if I encountered fellow party members behaving like that I'd be all for kicking them out pronto. I've never encountered anyone behaving like that.
How dare you! "Given your past history" ? As what? A father, widower, musician, man? You don't know me and, as far as I'm aware, we've never met. Do you make it your life's work to jump to, and publish, objectionable conclusions about complete strangers, or do you reserve your obnoxious sweeping generalisations for The Ship in general and me in particular?
I was referring simply to your past history of posting with regard to anti-semitism, which has used a very broad definition.
One term I absolutely loathe is "I don't see colour", because it is bullshit.
We will always will always notice differences. The ideal state is to not overlay negative characteristics on those differences.
When our older daughter was in primary school, she was once telling me about a friend, but I couldn't put a face to the name, so she patiently tried to describe her to me - height, hair and so on. I still wasn't getting it, and finally she said as an afterthought, it seemed, "She has a sort of brown skin".
The city I live in is a "majority-minority" place, so people tend to include color or ethnicity for anyone they're trying to describe. Before I moved here, I rarely described someone as being white because in my mind it was the default. After over 25 years here, saying something like "the short white dude" is automatic, but I still clock after it's come out of my mouth that noting whiteness is a thing I haven't done all my life.
My secondary school uniform was a fetching shade of brown, with a descriptive word which I somehow never associated with abuse of people from Africa or the Caribbean - none of whom could be found around. It was a pair of words for school uniform colours which always stuck together in the manner of "navy blue" and "bottle green", in which the navy and the bottles didn't register either. I know an ex-pupil hereabouts who insists on still using the words though. Worrying.
My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.
BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.
Knowing your very broad definition of anti-semitism, I think it's necessary to ask what this "casual anti-semitism" consists of.
Using the word "yids", referring to someone as "of course, they're one of the chosen", describing someone as "looking Jewish", ditto certain items of clothing, etc. Does any of that qualify for your definition of anti-semitism, or am I over-reacting?
No, you're not overreacting (though given your past history you can hardly blame me for wondering). That's bloody awful and if I encountered fellow party members behaving like that I'd be all for kicking them out pronto. I've never encountered anyone behaving like that.
How dare you! "Given your past history" ? As what? A father, widower, musician, man? You don't know me and, as far as I'm aware, we've never met. Do you make it your life's work to jump to, and publish, objectionable conclusions about complete strangers, or do you reserve your obnoxious sweeping generalisations for The Ship in general and me in particular?
No one who posts on any given site, especially one like the Ship, is a complete stranger. We all have history here. If you want to argue misinterpretation, that is reasonable. But one's posting history is indeed a representation.
The impression I get from your posts is definitely right of centre.
Well fear not, you won't see any more of my objectionable "right of centre" posts.
'if you are a 2nd/3rd generation immigrant and have decided not to sound like an ordinary English person, then you are excluding yourself and I will honour your choice'.
BTW, the biggest reason people of foreign extraction keep accents and patterns a generation of two in is, in part, because general society does not accept them as British. Why conform if you're not allowed in anyway?
"Sounding like an ordinary English person" isn't a choice that most people make. Most people don't consciously choose their accents - they adopt the accent of those they spend time with in their youth. They speak they way they are taught.
I'm British. I speak with a fairly standard south-of-England accent. I've lived in the US for quite some time, and I've found that my default choice of word and syntax has acclimated slightly to the local norm, and my accent has hardly changed at all.
My kids are American. They sound fairly English, because they've acquired their accents mostly from us, but their vowels are a bit more American. Most Americans don't notice - they just think they sound English. English people notice that they sound a bit American.
If you live in a community of people who all speak with similar accents, then your kids are going to end up speaking with that accent (unless it's beaten out of them in school, of course). If your kids remain in that community, their kids will keep the accent, and so on.
It's mostly not a choice - it's because of segregation.
I suspect my family isn't unique, but it's undoubtedly got a low frequency. Four identifiable minorities though one can pretend they're not. "Watch your mouth" or "that's racist". These work. Just change your tone of voice and volume.
And yes, silence is not acceptable. You have to say it.
Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?
I suppose what you have to ask yourself is: if a Chinese acquaintance was in earshot would you feel comfortable using that kind of language (obviously this only works for those who have a sense of embarrassment when it comes to racism but I'm reasonably sure that includes most folk here)?
Knowing several Chinese people (as in, people who are citizens of the Peoples Republic of China - we're a university linked research group, so a large proportion of our students are Chinese long with a variety of visiting scientists) their first response would be "you're talking about a meal that's a westernised amalgam of selected dishes from several different regions of China, and some places outside China, please don't equate that food with what my mother cooks".
Which brings up the question of the extent to which our cultures appropriate selected items from other cultures and attach national or ethnic labels to them. In food, we have in addition to 'Chinese', 'Indian' (often derived from dishes originating in Pakistan, Bangladesh and other places outside India), 'Italian' and don't get me started on what passes for sushi in many 'Japanese' restaurants. Is taking someone else's culture, mucking it around and serving it up as something that it isn't racist in it's own right?
Given that I am dealing with overtly racist sentiments and opinions expressed by my parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, workmates, and relatives of friends, can I forget about going and finding things that are possibly racist because they amount to cultural appropriation?
Sorry Alan. But really, mate. Let's get to point A before we have a go at point F or G.
Oh God, I just remembered my conservative American family.
Sometimes it's important to remember that we're all on a journey from extreme racism through milder forms of racism ... and maybe one day we'll reach"not racist at all". We're not Pharisees declaring "thank you God I'm not a racist like my uncle who calls all east Asians 'chinks'" but travellers on the same road urging ourselves forward even as we try and encourage others to catch up.
It can be an important message to those at points A and B to be seen tackling points F and G. Asking "shall we get dinner from the Cantonese style or Vietnamese style restaurant?" may be a witness to someone who calls them all "chinks" that you respect the differences between these communities.
That surely would only work on someone who accepts that racism is a bad thing, and doesn't yet see that this might amount to cultural appropriation. For someone who is actually a white supremicist, or who believes that Europe is a white homeland, or whatever, they are just going to see you as the enemy. For someone who is casually racist, or who doesn't think about it very much but is around racism, they are going to think you are a wanker, showing off your purity the way them libtards always do.
I am also not really sure that there is a journey from being racist to not being racist. I think the journey is towards controlling your racist impulses. A big part of this is language, which is where your Vietnamese-style terminology comes in, but also thought. I think words come first, but I'm not sure. This is an individual journey, not one to be imposed, but I'm also not sure about that. Sorry.
To use Paul's metaphor, there is a danger that this cultural appropriation in restaurant food stuff is food too rich to be digested by some. I think the right-wing reaction to the legal reforms concerning equal rights in the 1980's (in Australia) is at least two steps backwards. I think the legal reforms were needed, and drove necessary change. But when, 20 years later, an Aboriginal footballer can be hounded into ending his football career early by being perceived as an uppity black, I think our efforts are best confined to making sure that shit doesn't happen again, and that the coppers try not to bash people so much. When there is an overwhelming anti-racist sentiment mainstreamed in the whole of the community, then we can look at the stuff you are talking about. The field will be ready for it.
Paradoxically, I don't think anyone in Melbourne would make the mistake of calling Vietnamese food Chinese food. Them's fighting words. Some Vietnamese people I know are very touchy about that sort of stuff.
I am also not really sure that there is a journey from being racist to not being racist. I think the journey is towards controlling your racist impulses.
Christianity concept of "original sin" has a lot to answer for and thinking like this is part of it.
Yes, it can be difficult to transition from racist to not. And one step is understanding and controlling one's impulses. But the idea that one cannot let go of racism is a hindrance to eliminating it in oneself and reducing it in society.
Is it possible that one way of thinking about it might work for some of us, and another way of thinking about it might work for others? Is it possible that there is no right answer, and that the easiest way to deal with our poo is to work within our own cultural frameworks?
These are not rhetorical but genuine questions, but as someone whose perceptions alter significantly with mood, I am used to dealing with uncertainty. So my inclination is to say there are no right answers.
Couldn't agree more, especially in public space, it becomes a duty if not to speak out but to stand with the persecuted and comfort them with words where possible.
What Tutu said is the same fucking thing I am saying. Cluebats available, should you need one again.
Has anyone here ever had to cut face to face meeting with relatives over Any sort of hate speech?
I find Christians/churchgoers in the UK are willing to be embarrassed/shamed into not being racist in my presence as they are at least aware that it is a bad thing. They are even willing not to be homo/transphobic as long as other people don't bring up things that are pro LGBT.
That's when I find a mirror image of your situation. "If you want to be around me/my kids we don't want to hear that".
One of my sisters finds it bad enough that our older brother is living with a woman "in sin". Good job she lives in the States and hardly ever meets brother/partner. She's not twigged that partner is trans. I'm sure she would cut contact with brother and maybe those of us who knew and didn't tell her if she found out.
Simon's link was interesting. Particularly as the other night, while the World Service chuntered under my pillow, I found myself hearing the programme Stumped, which discusses world cricket. It was focussing on Australian indigenous representation in cricket, and mentioned one player who had achieved awards for his play, but been deliberately omitted from the state team where all previous winners had been automatically included. (Think it was Western Australia, as Perth was mentioned.) The telling thing was an interview with a representative from the higher reaches of the organisation who explained the under representation of indigenous players in cricket as the result of the indigneous being more interested in the more active sports such as football or rugby. He totally ignored the exclusion of the good players who were interested in the slow sport. I wonder what the excuse in those active sports is, since that link shows descrimination is active there as well.
Searching for it now Penny. I was completely unaware of this. I have a link to the show on racism in cricket and will give it a listen tonight. Thanks very much for mentioning this. I am pretty sure that stuff about indigenous kids being only interested in footy and rugby is racist bullshit of the worst sort, but I haven't really looked into it.
I suspect my family isn't unique, but it's undoubtedly got a low frequency. Four identifiable minorities though one can pretend they're not. "Watch your mouth" or "that's racist". These work. Just change your tone of voice and volume.
And yes, silence is not acceptable. You have to say it.
Again, silence is perfectly acceptable. I elegantly match your generalization.
Fwiw, I am finding it easier to connect with opinions here that acknowledge some degree of uncertainty and humility.
For in truth we are all in this mess together and were it really all that easy to sort out, then it would have been sorted long ago.
And
Absolute certainty seems to be leading to arguments that are not being resolved. Highlighting all too sadly why some don’t even want to discuss this topic. Too scared of being jumped on for talking out of turn or having another opinion.
[Deleted User] oh yes, your examples chime with my experiences.
So far, this thread is helping me to see some specific constructive changes that I can make to My situation.
Ethne Alba - from experience, it rather depends on who you want to challenge - someone who'd regard themselves as one of your elders and betters, someone else of your generation, or one of the younger members of your family. In my experience, it's a whole lot easier to challenge my peers or juniors than it is my elders.
If I was trying to challenge an elder, I'd probably try to start a conversation along the lines of: "working in education I'd have to report comments like that as racism, and the kids in school would get an exclusion for racism in most schools, it's not something I can hear without reacting to because where I usually work as it's so unacceptable". From which I'd hope they'd at least stop near me or maybe have a conversation as to what is acceptable now.
If the racism continued, I'd then say something like: Do you remember me saying that I can't hear this language without doing something about it because I have to at work? Because I'm afraid I cannot stay here and hear this without doing something, so I'm leaving. And keep leaving whenever the racism comes up (and you can do that online too).
If they complain, say: but I can't stay talking to you if you're racist/use this racist language, it's something I'm trained to deal with. If you want me to stay for longer, then you need to stop using racist language/being racist.
My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.
BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.
Knowing your very broad definition of anti-semitism, I think it's necessary to ask what this "casual anti-semitism" consists of.
Using the word "yids", referring to someone as "of course, they're one of the chosen", describing someone as "looking Jewish", ditto certain items of clothing, etc. Does any of that qualify for your definition of anti-semitism, or am I over-reacting?
No, you're not overreacting (though given your past history you can hardly blame me for wondering). That's bloody awful and if I encountered fellow party members behaving like that I'd be all for kicking them out pronto. I've never encountered anyone behaving like that.
How dare you! "Given your past history" ? As what? A father, widower, musician, man? You don't know me and, as far as I'm aware, we've never met. Do you make it your life's work to jump to, and publish, objectionable conclusions about complete strangers, or do you reserve your obnoxious sweeping generalisations for The Ship in general and me in particular?
No one who posts on any given site, especially one like the Ship, is a complete stranger. We all have history here. If you want to argue misinterpretation, that is reasonable. But one's posting history is indeed a representation.
The impression I get from your posts is definitely right of centre.
Well fear not, you won't see any more of my objectionable "right of centre" posts.
@TheOrganist, I hope this doesn't mean you are leaving. The Ship would be poorer without you.
There seems to be evidence that young children actually don't notice skin colour. Does anyone when this changes, and why?
A couple of years ago I was chatting to a lovely old lady in her late 80s. She had been using a telephone helpline, and had problems because the person on the other end was clearly from an ethnic minority (or she was talking to someone in India, I suppose). My friend was very annoyed, and made comments about, "Those n*^%-n☆▪︎¤¿ should learn to speak English!" My response was, "My dear, I know you're lovely, but when you use language like that you don't sound lovely". She paused, and then, "My family keep telling me that too".
My father could not use telephone contacts with call centres for utilities because he could not understand the speakers. He wasn't racist about commenting about the problem, but it is something the companies involved should be aware of. OTOH, Robert's comment in his case was impressive.
There seems to be evidence that young children actually don't notice skin colour.
I think it's not so much that they don't notice but that skin color is only one of the differences between people. There are also differences in height, weight, and body type. A child notices all these differences and doesn't yet know which society considers important.
I heard an interesting story from a friend of mine who lived in India for many years. She and her husband had a biological son and an adopted Indian son. One day the biological son said, "You know, there are two kinds of people in this family--the light and the dark". She took a deep breath and tried to figure out what to say. The boy went on, "Daddy and I have light hair, and you and Mike have dark hair." She was very glad she hadn't said anything.
Couldn't agree more, especially in public space, it becomes a duty if not to speak out but to stand with the persecuted and comfort them with words where possible.
What Tutu said is the same fucking thing I am saying. Cluebats available, should you need one again.
There seems to be evidence that young children actually don't notice skin colour. Does anyone when this changes, and why?
I've been reading up on how to talk to my kid about racism (still struggling there), but the consensus seems to be that babies notice how you act around other people, and children as young as 3 notice race.
Comments
Until then I had never really thought about what went on out there. It was a very special wake up moment. I had never really thought about the conditions which had made the merchants of Glasgow so rich.
As a child I had heard of prejudice against Anglo-Indians although I was not sure who those people might be, but they were around in the working class areas in the industrial West of Scotland, since in Imperial times there had been a lot of connection between Clydeside and India with the building of locomotives for Indian railways and shipping for the Irrawaddy flotilla Company
However at that time in the industrial West of Scotland the great cultural clash was that between Catholics and Protestants - really nothing else mattered much at that time. I won't go into the prejudice which was there on both sides. Since I had a foot in both camps I was aware of what both sides would say about the other and it has given me since then an absolute horror both of religious and racial prejudice.
I particularly remember speaking with an old man who recounted all the difficulties which he had felt being a Catholic at the turn of the 20th century, but when our conversation turned to the name of a one other particular person, my old man was able to say with somewhat of a sneer 'Of course he was a Jewboy'.
BTW, the biggest reason people of foreign extraction keep accents and patterns a generation of two in is, in part, because general society does not accept them as British. Why conform if you're not allowed in anyway?
There is a distinctive Lancashire-Pakistani accent I've experienced teaching in the county, no less intelligible than any other northern accent, and considerably more than Glaswegian. There's also an open question as to whether Glaswegians are actually always speaking English or whether it is in fact Broad Scots. That said, as a student I always found it a bit frustrating that the Student Loans Company was based in Glasgow because I really did have trouble understanding the call handlers and after a certain point it gets embarrassing to keep asking them to repeat themselves.
I worked with a young man from Russia who spoke English with only a barely perceptible accent. But I noticed as he got older, his Russian accent grew stronger. I wrote that off to his being around Russian speakers at home.
You are, of course, spot on: Deeply suspect! Likes classical music, prefers formal liturgy, sends thank-you letters, abhors bad manners and rudeness, opens doors for others, white, male, ex-public school - how could I be anything else but a right-wing bigot?
My way of 'educating' the people who used the expression 'chinky' was not to use the expression myself
No, you're not overreacting (though given your past history you can hardly blame me for wondering). That's bloody awful and if I encountered fellow party members behaving like that I'd be all for kicking them out pronto. I've never encountered anyone behaving like that.
I was more thinking of your constant justifications for government actions, but feel free to make things up if it makes you happier.
None of my friends would have used the 'chinky' word and none of them would have talked in familiar terms about the 'Paki' shop.
Host hat on
This is a personal attack and doesn’t belong in Purgatory.
Host hat off
BroJames Purgatory Host
How dare you! "Given your past history" ? As what? A father, widower, musician, man? You don't know me and, as far as I'm aware, we've never met. Do you make it your life's work to jump to, and publish, objectionable conclusions about complete strangers, or do you reserve your obnoxious sweeping generalisations for The Ship in general and me in particular?
An old friend who grew up in a wealthy Texas household told me his mother used to call the dishwasher "the electric n*g**r."
The impression I get from your posts is definitely right of centre.
I was referring simply to your past history of posting with regard to anti-semitism, which has used a very broad definition.
When our older daughter was in primary school, she was once telling me about a friend, but I couldn't put a face to the name, so she patiently tried to describe her to me - height, hair and so on. I still wasn't getting it, and finally she said as an afterthought, it seemed, "She has a sort of brown skin".
"Sounding like an ordinary English person" isn't a choice that most people make. Most people don't consciously choose their accents - they adopt the accent of those they spend time with in their youth. They speak they way they are taught.
I'm British. I speak with a fairly standard south-of-England accent. I've lived in the US for quite some time, and I've found that my default choice of word and syntax has acclimated slightly to the local norm, and my accent has hardly changed at all.
My kids are American. They sound fairly English, because they've acquired their accents mostly from us, but their vowels are a bit more American. Most Americans don't notice - they just think they sound English. English people notice that they sound a bit American.
If you live in a community of people who all speak with similar accents, then your kids are going to end up speaking with that accent (unless it's beaten out of them in school, of course). If your kids remain in that community, their kids will keep the accent, and so on.
It's mostly not a choice - it's because of segregation.
(Understatement much)
And yes, silence is not acceptable. You have to say it.
That surely would only work on someone who accepts that racism is a bad thing, and doesn't yet see that this might amount to cultural appropriation. For someone who is actually a white supremicist, or who believes that Europe is a white homeland, or whatever, they are just going to see you as the enemy. For someone who is casually racist, or who doesn't think about it very much but is around racism, they are going to think you are a wanker, showing off your purity the way them libtards always do.
I am also not really sure that there is a journey from being racist to not being racist. I think the journey is towards controlling your racist impulses. A big part of this is language, which is where your Vietnamese-style terminology comes in, but also thought. I think words come first, but I'm not sure. This is an individual journey, not one to be imposed, but I'm also not sure about that. Sorry.
To use Paul's metaphor, there is a danger that this cultural appropriation in restaurant food stuff is food too rich to be digested by some. I think the right-wing reaction to the legal reforms concerning equal rights in the 1980's (in Australia) is at least two steps backwards. I think the legal reforms were needed, and drove necessary change. But when, 20 years later, an Aboriginal footballer can be hounded into ending his football career early by being perceived as an uppity black, I think our efforts are best confined to making sure that shit doesn't happen again, and that the coppers try not to bash people so much. When there is an overwhelming anti-racist sentiment mainstreamed in the whole of the community, then we can look at the stuff you are talking about. The field will be ready for it.
Paradoxically, I don't think anyone in Melbourne would make the mistake of calling Vietnamese food Chinese food. Them's fighting words. Some Vietnamese people I know are very touchy about that sort of stuff.
Here's an interview with the footballer I mentioned. I will be reading it after I post it. I think it will contain some interesting reflections on his experiences. He's a very bright bloke.
Yes, it can be difficult to transition from racist to not. And one step is understanding and controlling one's impulses. But the idea that one cannot let go of racism is a hindrance to eliminating it in oneself and reducing it in society.
These are not rhetorical but genuine questions, but as someone whose perceptions alter significantly with mood, I am used to dealing with uncertainty. So my inclination is to say there are no right answers.
If you fucking say so.
I find Christians/churchgoers in the UK are willing to be embarrassed/shamed into not being racist in my presence as they are at least aware that it is a bad thing. They are even willing not to be homo/transphobic as long as other people don't bring up things that are pro LGBT.
That's when I find a mirror image of your situation. "If you want to be around me/my kids we don't want to hear that".
One of my sisters finds it bad enough that our older brother is living with a woman "in sin". Good job she lives in the States and hardly ever meets brother/partner. She's not twigged that partner is trans. I'm sure she would cut contact with brother and maybe those of us who knew and didn't tell her if she found out.
Again, silence is perfectly acceptable. I elegantly match your generalization.
For in truth we are all in this mess together and were it really all that easy to sort out, then it would have been sorted long ago.
And
Absolute certainty seems to be leading to arguments that are not being resolved. Highlighting all too sadly why some don’t even want to discuss this topic. Too scared of being jumped on for talking out of turn or having another opinion.
[Deleted User] oh yes, your examples chime with my experiences.
So far, this thread is helping me to see some specific constructive changes that I can make to My situation.
If I was trying to challenge an elder, I'd probably try to start a conversation along the lines of: "working in education I'd have to report comments like that as racism, and the kids in school would get an exclusion for racism in most schools, it's not something I can hear without reacting to because where I usually work as it's so unacceptable". From which I'd hope they'd at least stop near me or maybe have a conversation as to what is acceptable now.
If the racism continued, I'd then say something like: Do you remember me saying that I can't hear this language without doing something about it because I have to at work? Because I'm afraid I cannot stay here and hear this without doing something, so I'm leaving. And keep leaving whenever the racism comes up (and you can do that online too).
If they complain, say: but I can't stay talking to you if you're racist/use this racist language, it's something I'm trained to deal with. If you want me to stay for longer, then you need to stop using racist language/being racist.
@TheOrganist, I hope this doesn't mean you are leaving. The Ship would be poorer without you.
There seems to be evidence that young children actually don't notice skin colour. Does anyone when this changes, and why?
A couple of years ago I was chatting to a lovely old lady in her late 80s. She had been using a telephone helpline, and had problems because the person on the other end was clearly from an ethnic minority (or she was talking to someone in India, I suppose). My friend was very annoyed, and made comments about, "Those n*^%-n☆▪︎¤¿ should learn to speak English!" My response was, "My dear, I know you're lovely, but when you use language like that you don't sound lovely". She paused, and then, "My family keep telling me that too".
But no, not elders, same age.......
I think it's not so much that they don't notice but that skin color is only one of the differences between people. There are also differences in height, weight, and body type. A child notices all these differences and doesn't yet know which society considers important.
I heard an interesting story from a friend of mine who lived in India for many years. She and her husband had a biological son and an adopted Indian son. One day the biological son said, "You know, there are two kinds of people in this family--the light and the dark". She took a deep breath and tried to figure out what to say. The boy went on, "Daddy and I have light hair, and you and Mike have dark hair." She was very glad she hadn't said anything.
Please
I m trying to have somewhere to ask questions, try ideas out, see what might help.......
I've been reading up on how to talk to my kid about racism (still struggling there), but the consensus seems to be that babies notice how you act around other people, and children as young as 3 notice race.
Sources: https://www.newsweek.com/even-babies-discriminate-nurtureshock-excerpt-79233
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/healthy-living/emotional-wellness/Building-Resilience/Pages/Talking-to-Children-About-Racial-Bias.aspx