Coping in the Time of Covid-19 - New and Improved!

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  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited October 2020

    (BTW - am I the only person to be gobsmacked at the revelation that the entire economy of the UK appears to be based on pubs, restaurants, wedding venues, and tourism?)
    I guess those industries also have a knock on effect on others. For instance, taxi drivers are having a tough time due to the reduction in socialising, breweries will have distribution issues, and delivery workers will lose their jobs. And some are secondary to other industries, such as sandwich shops being reliant on office workers.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    What else is left of the UK economy?

    We had a manufacturing sector, which has been systematically dismantled over the last few decades, and has now been sacrifice on the alter of Brexit. Agriculture and fisheries, also victims of Brexit. Science, technology, innovation are national strengths built on working with the rest of the EU. Creative arts, need people to go to the theatre, live gigs, or visit museums ... and is in part part of the tourism sector. Financial services are sacrosanct, and shouldn't be harmed by anything (even the closing of the Pret staff get their lunch), except of course Brexit.
  • Well, yes. I was being slightly ironic, but it is a sad story, nonetheless.

    Given the almost-certainty of a No-deal Brexit, it ain't going to get any better soon...
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    It's very hard not to feel completely despondent at the moment. I'm usually a "glass is full" type of person (unless proved otherwise), but I'm really struggling to see a light at the end of the tunnel, unless it's attached to an oncoming train.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    I think the *English government* (aka Cummings) has sold that light (or perhaps even the complete train, along with the track, and the tunnel) to the highest bidder...
  • DooneDoone Shipmate
    Piglet wrote: »
    It's very hard not to feel completely despondent at the moment. I'm usually a "glass is full" type of person (unless proved otherwise), but I'm really struggling to see a light at the end of the tunnel, unless it's attached to an oncoming train.

    Totally agree, it all gets worse and worse 😢.
  • Yes, and the problem with oncoming trains is that they may Run You Over and chop you into little bits...
    :scream:
  • It's all so infuriating. If the government were really bothered about keeping businesses open they would have provided better advice and grants early doors for Covid-proofing (including screens in taxis). It would have cost less in the long run than paying out those now in Tier-3 areas and eventually the huge Universal Credit/Jobseekers bill.

    OTOH, today I managed to persuade a repeat visitor to the library in which I work to fill in a track and trace form and wear a proper mask (not just a tucked-in headscarf) when she wouldn't before. I'm counting it as a win. We've had very few refusers. Our main problem has been half-arsed mask wearing and people who think they need to take them off to speak because they can't hear you.
  • people who think they need to take them off to speak because they can't hear you.
    That's preisely my problem. My hearing is poor but not to the point of needing hearing aids, and I really can't hear what people are sayig behid a mask when I can't see their lips. Conversely, no-one seems to be able to hear what I say from behind a mask. Makes for a very solitary experience, given that we in Melbourne are now in our nth week of not being able to leave the house without wearing one.

  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    I do wear hearing aids and when others a wearing a mask I ask them to face me and talk more slowly, which helps. I think I have a processing problem as well as a hearing one because sometimes all I hear is a jumble of noise.

    One of the advantages I have is shopping locally where I am (usually) known, so people are a bit more patient.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Yes, talking while wearing a mask is a bit different from when not wearing one. I find myself talking a bit more slowly, and making sure I'm looking at the person I'm talking to so I can see signs of not being heard. I find I need to talk more slowly and project more on Zoom etal as well, so it's the same changes in speaking style in both circumstances. We're going to get more used to saying "sorry, can you say that again? I missed a bit" - but without taking off our masks and only asking others to remove their mask in extremis (eg: someone who has no choice except to lip read).
  • Until yesterday (at the annual flu jab centre) I had no idea that my hearing was so bad....
  • bassobasso Shipmate
    I've commented, and co-workers have agreed, that we had no idea how much we'd come to rely on lip reading until it was taken away.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Very true. I know my hearing isn't what it ought to be (I'm on a waiting list for an audiology appointment), and I find the combination of voices being a bit muffled, not being able to lip-read and not being able to move closer to people to hear them better is a total pain in the arse.
  • Thanks, all, for the reassurance that I'm not alone in having such problems.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    basso wrote: »
    I've commented, and co-workers have agreed, that we had no idea how much we'd come to rely on lip reading until it was taken away.

    I've found I lip read too, but it's also missing the expression on someone's face that adds to the difficulty too. Don't be surprised if you end up more tired too as I find that if I have been in a situation where hearing is difficult for me I often feel exhausted by the effort.
  • Glad I am not the only one.
    There are advantages to not mixing with anyone else after all.
  • cgichard wrote: »
    people who think they need to take them off to speak because they can't hear you.
    That's preisely my problem. My hearing is poor but not to the point of needing hearing aids, and I really can't hear what people are sayig behid a mask when I can't see their lips. Conversely, no-one seems to be able to hear what I say from behind a mask. Makes for a very solitary experience, given that we in Melbourne are now in our nth week of not being able to leave the house without wearing one.
    Oh yes, it's almost impossible to have a normal conversation and must be, apart from anything else, very tiring for anyone with difficulty hearing. It must be very isolating.

    I meant people who have difficulty hearing me, but take off their own mask. I can hear you fine, thanks. Please keep it on. See also starting off standing in front of the sneeze screen to ask a question and slowly shuffling sideways until they're leaning over the counter because no one wants to speak through sheet plastic. It's entirely unconscious and if you remind them they pull themselves up: "oh yes, sorry" and lean back again.
  • I find even with my hearing aids I find it hard sometimes to understand, so now and then I just nod and really do not know what the conversation is about.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Re body-scanning meditation:

    Gentle FYI: Sometimes, emotions get stored in bodies, and can get triggered during this kind of meditation. You might know what it's about, or you might not. Be gentle with yourself. And it doesn't hurt to make sure there's someone you can talk to, or a safe way to express your feelings.

    IANAD. But I've been through it, and know others who have. It's common with massage and other kinds of body work, too.

    You'd be amazed how some people who know about this, due to their work, are totally clueless when it actually happens. Like, ohhh, theoretically, professionals who hold a small group workshop for abuse survivors, and act like it's an interesting feature of a strange species. Not that I'd ever have been in such a situation, of course...

    Anyway, didn't want anyone to stumble into that without knowing, given the massive stress these days.

    FWIW, YMMV.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Sorry if I should've left off the personal story. Feelings from bodywork can be handled, but it can help to know that when it happens. Good bodyworkers and therapists know that and can help, and I've experienced that, too.

    It's just that the idea of people dealing with it alone, now, with the overload of stress from...everything...was worrying.
  • Welsh Shipmates will no doubt have heard that the Principality is to go into a short lockdown on Friday, according to the BBC:
    https://bbc.co.uk/news

    I see that places of worship are to close down again, presumably including Remembrance Sunday - 8th November.

    Commiserations to all affected, but hopefully the 'firebreak' will have a positive effect on the progress of ye Plague.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Of all the shortages triggered by the pandemic, apparently the latest is what might be termed slouchwear - track suits and comfy shoes and for all I know baggy cardigans. Doesn't affect me, since all my clothes come into this category.
  • There's a national shortage of water butts too. We had our damaged guttering replaced and thought we would add a water butt to the downpipe at the same time. Only to discover that Britain has a butt shortage.
  • A *world-butting* shortage, though...

    I'll get me coat.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    ... Britain has a butt shortage.
    This Briton doesn't - my butt's quite large enough, thank you.

    I'll see myself out. :mrgreen:

    @Firenze - you're quite right - if it ain't long, slouchy and comfortable, I don't buy it!
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    And so we go into tier 3.

    Ho hum.

    Lucky for Mr Boogs the gyms are still open. The only way I’ll see friends or family now is by arranging to go for walks with them. I’ve fixed up to meet a good friend on Sunday for a walk. 🙂
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Great re walk, Boogie! :)
  • Flu shot day today. They're free for everyone. Which leads me to the local statistic in my province. Nearly half the people are expressing hesitant attitudes toward a vaccine for COVID-19. It would seem to me to be a no brainer that coping with this virus requires vaccination. When I say vaccination, I mean Health Canada approved or whatever the comparable agency is for you.
  • Flu shot day today. They're free for everyone. Which leads me to the local statistic in my province. Nearly half the people are expressing hesitant attitudes toward a vaccine for COVID-19. It would seem to me to be a no brainer that coping with this virus requires vaccination. When I say vaccination, I mean Health Canada approved or whatever the comparable agency is for you.

    There may be a certain amount of reasonable skepticism that one's national health agency, understanding as you do that coping with this virus requires vaccination, might be a little aggressive in terms of approving a vaccination. The degree to which one's government displays things like competence and consistency in regard to Covid-19 might reasonably affect the degree of trust that people place in the pronouncements of the national agency in question.

    Although on a personal front, I don't think I have too many concerns: I'm under 50, don't have any major health issues, and can work from home, so I should be last in the queue for a vaccine. The benefit of this is that by the time the vaccine gets to me, it'll have been tested on a lot of other people...
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Yeah, re being "tested on a lot of other people" before getting to me. Under the best of circumstances, it takes time to come up with a workable vaccine that's safe for (most) people. There will be side effects, and some will take a while to crop up--and even longer to be officially acknowledged.

    I can have reactions to vaccines, medications, chemicals, etc. Nothing life-threatening, but I can get sick--which isn't good, on top of my other health problems. Other people with similar health problems can have vaccine reactions, too.

    Plus the US handling of the pandemic doesn't exactly inspire confidence. T & co. put pressure on the CDC and other experts. AIUI, that really did affect advice and info given to the public.

    I don't want *anyone* to be put at risk by being a guinea pig for the vaccine, whether in an official test or simply by getting the vaccine. I can't do anything about that, but I can try to take care of myself.

    I'm not an essential worker (bless them!!!), and I'm being very good about staying home, mask and gloves, social distancing, etc. So I'm not going to rush into getting a vaccine.

    I'm pro-vaccination, BTW. I hate to think how frightened anti-vax folks will react if there are problems with the Covid vaccine(s).
  • Speaking as someone in the Pfizer trial, and married to someone in the Moderna trial (which wouldn't have me, because I took inhaled anti-asthma steroids like, six months previously)...

    Some people seem to think there's a lot of risk to being in these trials. To the best of my knowledge and research (and experience!) there is not. These are stage 3 trials, so they've already done the basic safety checks earlier. And they do not involve intentional exposure to the COVID virus at any stage (they are mRNA vaccines, so not even a dead whole virus to worry about).

    To be sure, with such a huge number in the trial, they might conceivably flush out some rare side effect that wasn't noticed in the earlier phases (almost bound to, in fact, though there's nothing to say it would be a severe side effect, it could be something dumb like having your tongue turn purple). Yet that tiny amount of risk pales beside the benefit of actually getting what is probably a functional vaccine--even if that function is not completely 100% protective. Getting it months and months earlier in the pandemic than would be possible any other way--and therefore avoiding months and months of known risk.

    I figure my chances of having a bad, bad case of COVID with hospitalization, ICU and possible death are probably 30%. That's because of my underlying conditions, as they call them. The same is true for my husband, though he is in better health, but much older. What are my chances of having a rare side effect in the vaccine trials? I'm guessing far less than 1%. Probably more like .001%. I'll play those odds any day.

    (that said... mrrrrppmmmmphhh! I'm as sure as I can be that I got the placebo, while Mr Lamb got the real thing. I'm glad for him, and grumpy for me. Well, at least they're paying us...)
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    LC--

    Best of luck to both of you!

    Elsewhere, though...

    --As to not involving "intentional exposure":

    "UK to host 'human challenge' trials for COVID-19 vaccines - FT" (Reuters).
    (Reuters) - Britain is planning to host clinical trials where volunteers are deliberately infected with the new coronavirus to test the effectiveness of vaccine candidates, the Financial Times reported on Wednesday, citing people involved in the project.

    That was last updated Sept. 23, 2020. Emphasis mine.

    --This sounds more like what you helped with. I don't *see* anything about purposeful infection, but if it's the same trial as above...

    "10,000 UK volunteers to take part in new COVID-19 vaccine trials" (Gov.UK).
    Ten thousand UK volunteers will from today (Friday 25 September) be invited to join a leading phase 3 coronavirus vaccine trial, as the number of people who have signed up to take part in research hits 250,000.
  • The "challenge" thing you mentioned first is the only trial I've heard of that actually uses live, dangerous virus. Or will, if it comes off. Truthfully, I don't see the value of doing that sort of thing, when we have so many candidates, several of which are within arm's length of the goal (or at least knowing whether they have made the goal). Challenge trials with deadly viruses ought to be for forlorn hopes--for cases where any other option will take years to make good, if ever.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Yes, re your last sentence. Then there's the matter of 10,000 infected participants possibly/likely passing on their infection...
  • edited October 2020
    The "challenge" thing you mentioned first is the only trial I've heard of that actually uses live, dangerous virus. Or will, if it comes off. Truthfully, I don't see the value of doing that sort of thing, when we have so many candidates, several of which are within arm's length of the goal (or at least knowing whether they have made the goal). Challenge trials with deadly viruses ought to be for forlorn hopes--for cases where any other option will take years to make good, if ever.

    Note that a really effective vaccine for COVID19 will likely have several of the candidates included. Not quite parallel because of differences between influenza viruses and corona viruses: My flu vaccine today was quadravalent. 4 components. That's what we're going to need. There's not going to be a single "winner" among those under development.
  • Well, and that's where we're going to run into money and politics...
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    The "challenge" thing you mentioned first is the only trial I've heard of that actually uses live, dangerous virus. Or will, if it comes off. Truthfully, I don't see the value of doing that sort of thing, when we have so many candidates, several of which are within arm's length of the goal (or at least knowing whether they have made the goal). Challenge trials with deadly viruses ought to be for forlorn hopes--for cases where any other option will take years to make good, if ever.
    You may possibly be misunderstanding what ‘challenge’ trials are. They are not about the safety of the vaccines being tested, but about their effectiveness. The ‘challenge’ element of the trial is that, having been given a vaccine, volunteers are then deliberately exposed to Covid-19 to see if the vaccine does actually give protection.

    AIUI this means the trial can work with fewer volunteers, and a shorter timescale because you can guarantee your volunteers have been exposed to infection within a controlled time frame. Otherwise you have to have a larger pool of volunteers and a longer time frame before you can establish statistically whether the vaccine is giving protection,
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    The problem in a lot of places (even in the UK where case rates are rising) is that the incidence of the virus is still low enough that people on vaccine trials are unlikely to be exposed to the virus. You can improve those odds by recruiting volunteers who are more likely to be exposed to the virus (eg: health care workers), or ask your volunteers to engage in more risky behaviour (which may often be acting illegally, or impossible if the pubs are closed ... and, of course, be counter productive for society for those on a placebo or if the vaccine is less effective than hoped). The challenge trials not only speed things up with a smaller number of people, you can reduce the risks because the volunteers are under medical supervision so if they get a bad case of covid they'll get treatment quicker, you select volunteers who are in demographic groups less likely to have bad reactions, and by doing this in controlled environments they're not going to be in a position to pass the virus onto others. Challenge trials have often been a significant part of assessing vaccines for that reason, and in the case of diseases that are fairly well understood they can be done without a placebo cohort (if you know in advance that dose x of the virus will result in infection for 95% of people exposed then that's your baseline) - in the community trials you need a placebo cohort because the amount of virus people are exposed to, even if they're exposed, isn't controlled so the control group is needed.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Yes.

    I volunteered for the Oxford trial but was rejected as my risk of exposure was so low - and I live in Manchester!
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    edited October 2020
    Boogie wrote: »
    ... I volunteered for the Oxford trial but was rejected as my risk of exposure was so low - and I live in Manchester!

    Does that suggest that either (a) the criteria for volunteers aren't quite right; or (b) the Government was talking its usual bollocks by putting Manchester into Tier 3?
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited October 2020
    Piglet wrote: »
    Boogie wrote: »
    ... I volunteered for the Oxford trial but was rejected as my risk of exposure was so low - and I live in Manchester!

    Does that suggest that either (a) the criteria for volunteers aren't quite right; or (b) the Government was talking its usual bollocks by putting Manchester into Tier 3?

    Not really, I described my life and I don’t come into contact with anyone! (Apart from my brother who is our ‘bubble’.)

    There wasn’t a box to tick for ‘I fly on a plane every couple of months’ 🤔

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2020
    Are the Tier 3 restrictions likely to affect your next trip to The Real World Germany, @Boogie?

    We're still in Tier 1 here, but it must be really hard to work out (accurately) what you can or can't do etc.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    The "challenge" thing you mentioned first is the only trial I've heard of that actually uses live, dangerous virus. Or will, if it comes off. Truthfully, I don't see the value of doing that sort of thing, when we have so many candidates, several of which are within arm's length of the goal (or at least knowing whether they have made the goal). Challenge trials with deadly viruses ought to be for forlorn hopes--for cases where any other option will take years to make good, if ever.
    You may possibly be misunderstanding what ‘challenge’ trials are. They are not about the safety of the vaccines being tested, but about their effectiveness. The ‘challenge’ element of the trial is that, having been given a vaccine, volunteers are then deliberately exposed to Covid-19 to see if the vaccine does actually give protection.

    AIUI this means the trial can work with fewer volunteers, and a shorter timescale because you can guarantee your volunteers have been exposed to infection within a controlled time frame. Otherwise you have to have a larger pool of volunteers and a longer time frame before you can establish statistically whether the vaccine is giving protection,

    No, I understand this just fine. The safety issue I'm referring to is that of the volunteers, who are offering themselves up to be deliberately, intentionally exposed to a dangerous virus, rather than being sent out into the community where they may or may not be exposed, depending on chance and their daily lives.

    I see the value of a challenge trial scientifically. It is certainly faster and better controlled. But the risk to participants is far higher, because you are testing a vaccine that is not in fact guaranteed to work--or to work well--or to work in precisely the way you want it to. The exposure to the virus is certain, the protection--not so much. And therefore it makes more sense to save such trials for situations where they are really needed--where, for instance, there is no likelihood of a safe and effective vaccine being obtained in under several years by some safer method.

    That is not the case here. There is a strong likelihood of a semi-decent vaccine (or twenty) being approved for use in the next year. Possibly within months. So why do a challenge trial now? The matter is being handled already, and such heroism is not necessary.
  • Responding to Alan--the two trials we're a part of are deliberately recruiting people with a high likelihood of community exposure, and because we live in (God help us) COVID central, the U.S., they are likely to produce results without having to resort to deliberate exposure. And we are all under medical supervision, and have to report in every five minutes (slight exaggeration) if we get so much as a sniffle. So far I've been seen three times (with bloodwork and COVID nose test), called on the phone, and have to fill out a questionnaire on my phone every week. Mr. Lamb's supervision is even more stringent.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited October 2020
    Are the Tier 3 restrictions likely to affect your next trip to The Real World Germany, @Boogie?

    We're still in Tier 1 here, but it must be really hard to work out (accurately) what you can or can't do etc.

    No, except that we’ll have to have a test at Frankfurt airport. It’s free and you book your time so no queues.

    I’m very up and down with this virus and my feelings. I feel very lucky to have a garden, two lovely dogs - who make sure I get lots of walkies. I have plenty of interests and I’m never bored. I have a pension and no money worries.

    But I also miss socialising so much. A friend who comes to my coffee mornings phoned today. I miss her :cry:.

    This will come to an end. There will be a vaccine. We will one day be able to visit friends and have them visit us, as before.

    (((hugs for all of us)))

  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    It's a very small thing but I find Facebook increasingly difficult because if someone posts a link to a video clip it often scrolls on to ones of people filming themselves in hospital, dying of the virus. :disappointed: I've been caught out on a couple of occasions by this and it sends me on a real downer for the day - when I'm trying to reassure myself that most people who catch it survive.

    We are fortunate here - on the lightest of restrictions which mean we can still gather in groups of no more than six, indoors and outdoors. I fear tighter restrictions are only a matter of time, though.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    {{{{{{{Nenya}}}}}}} Yuck re videos. :(
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I wonder if you can change that, Nenya. I've been watching quite a few comedy videos on FB, and following comedians that I like, and FB algorithms are realising I like this kind of stuff, so if someone posts a video, when I've watched it, FB then scrolls on to a comedy video for me. I've not been shown any of people in hospital.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I do a lot of Hide/ Hide All on videos/posts - (though I'm mainly getting cookery, make-up (eh?) and life hacks).

    You need to grab the algorithm and throttle it.
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