I think I heard that the Dean of Windsor goes down to the vault after the service and says the words as the coffin is placed into the space in the vault.
That's what I suspected, and suggested to the person who asked the question. I've since heard it suggested (by someone from a Notable Cathedral Over Here) that he's only staying in the vault until he can be buried with HM in the George VI chapel.
Correct.
My sources tell me that Philip is in the niche originally occupied by his mother before her re-interment in Israel.
Augustine the Aleut - I'd not have thought of that as being as isolated as you recount - off the beaten track a bit, but only a bit. My childhood recollection is of oranges being available all year round. Then again, not even a Tasmanian winter is anywhere near as severe as you experience.
I don't recall oranges in cans - at one stage, canned mandarins were around but used for cooking.
I've done a bit of further research, such as are the amusements we are permitted under the provincial lockdown. An 85-year old cousin tells me that she was too young to remember if oranges were to be had in Renfrew during the war outside Xmas stockings, but she recalls the excitement when marmalade oranges became available again after WWII, as the making of preserves was a major social activity among Presbyterian women. She does recall that sliced oranges were available in tins around then, but only recalls mandarins from her teens,
More appropriate to the thread, I have found out that the United Church of Canada suggests orange as a possible liturgical colour for Creation Time in Pentecost and for Ember Days. Full Homely Divinity suggests orange for Confessors, Monastics, and Matrons, but I don't know of anywhere which has adopted this variation.
More appropriate to the thread, I have found out that the United Church of Canada suggests orange as a possible liturgical colour for Creation Time in Pentecost and for Ember Days.
More appropriate to the thread, I have found out that the United Church of Canada suggests orange as a possible liturgical colour for Creation Time in Pentecost and for Ember Days.
The only similar division of Ordinary Time after Pentecost I’ve encountered is Kingdomtide, and I’ve only encountered that among United Methodists.
Meanwhile, I have to say that the idea of orange as a liturgical color sounds like something Mark Schweizer would have put into one of his Liturgical Mysteries. (In fact, I think he did, but I can’t remember which one.)
Saffron Yellow was, it seems, occasionally used in the Sarum Rite as the liturgical colour for Confessors, and it could be classed as a shade of orange.
Meanwhile, I have to say that the idea of orange as a liturgical color sounds like something Mark Schweizer would have put into one of his Liturgical Mysteries. (In fact, I think he did, but I can’t remember which one.)
Our former Canon to the Ordinary donned an orange tie-died chasuble at his ordination to the priesthood. It was 1969, which sort of explains it.
Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.
Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!
I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...
BTW, our Cathedral has, or had, a set of festal vestments (including copes) which are basically a sort of golden-yellow, with orange orphreys (IIRC), making for quite a pleasing colour combination.
Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.
Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!
I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...
Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.
Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!
I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...
Worcester Cathedral has a set of copes jocularly called 'St Clement's' because they're in shades of orange and lemon. From the optimistically modernist post-war school of ecclesiastical embroidery.
Yellow can only be traced as far back as Percy Dearmer; the Lichfield sequence makes no mention of it.
Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!
I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...
PD messed around an awful with the colours section of 'The Parson's Handbook' and in the 1932 edition he stopped being prescriptive at all, and gave a series of alternatives - one for churches of very limited means, a second as a sort of normal, and lastly the all-singing-all-dancing scheme that he had drawn up for Liverpool Cathedral a few years earlier. Plus Dearmer himself says that a lot of his suggestions are suggestions; unlike the chaps who wrote Ritual Notes who seem to treat this stuff as though it is the Law and the Prophets.
Not strictly liturgical, but this seems as good a place as any for this question. I've done some rather casual digging about, but haven't come up with anything.
This I may have asked before. Why is it that St Margaret seems to be associated with hospitality? There used to be St Margaret's Hotel in Bedford Road, Bloomsbury, and I know of at least one (two, I think) parish hall bearing her name.
St Leonard seems to be associated with ex-criminals or others otherwise at risk. I know of a transitional residence and of an organisation that provides assistance to newly released prisoners and to those potentially homeless.
St Leonard seems to be associated with ex-criminals or others otherwise at risk. I know of a transitional residence and of an organisation that provides assistance to newly released prisoners and to those potentially homeless
Wikipedia has a reasonable summary of St. Leonard, including why he is associated with the release of prisoners here.
Bearded ladies, Jumping Jews, and similar revels aren't, however, particularly associated with St. Leonard </blackadder>
If you are interested in the less recognised saints, the Rev Richard Coles has written books on their lives - he also posts short lives on his Twitter account, albeit somewhat erratically these days - here with St Claude (link)
Ah! Thank you @BroJames ! I couldn't remember whether it was on The Ship that I had asked about St Margaret or elsewhere. I should have thought to check my profile's history. Forgive my fogginess, please.
I have also since posting cleared up the St Leonard non-mystery. We now rejoin our regular programming.
If people want to check a friend regularly posts on Facebook pictures with info on the saints of the day. I have wondered whether I should encourage him to get a blog.
The secret Anglican Board on ye olde shippe used to have a wonderful thread detailing each day's saint.
Oh dear, have I broken a masonic secret here? I miss it, but visitations in the end petered out and it died.
The late (and most definitely great) James Kiefer prepared a calendar for saints remembered in the Episcopal Church. We use it daily. It's easily available - just key in his name and follow the links. There's an entry on the relevant day, clicking on the link gives a short biography etc. Some of those are probably not remembered elsewhere, such as a group of US chaplains killed in WW II when their ship was sunk. The nuns who died in the wreck of the Deutschland are also remembered.
The app Universalis is an excellent resource. It contains the RC calendar complete with biographies, the lectionary and the divine office. https://universalis.com/
The C of E has a book called *Exciting Holiness* (which I always read as *Exiting Holiness*).
It includes propers for various saints, and other holy women and men who have been part of British church history, along with brief biographies of each.
Given the sheer number of such saints, holy women etc. etc. down the ages, and in all denominations, it would be a bit of a job to cope with all of them!
The C of E has a book called *Exciting Holiness* (which I always read as *Exiting Holiness*).
It includes propers for various saints, and other holy women and men who have been part of British church history, along with brief biographies of each.
Given the sheer number of such saints, holy women etc. etc. down the ages, and in all denominations, it would be a bit of a job to cope with all of them!
The James Keifer site was interesting, for which thank you, but, yes, I was going to say that our list is pretty different from his. It also classifies saints into three different grades. There's an intermediate class that don't disrupt the programme of readings by getting their own but get voluntary collects and a bottom class that can be remembered but get neither.
Understandably, we don't have many of his North American names and he doesn't include many of our Anglo Saxon and recent British names. Today, for example, is a blank day on his list but is St Ethedreda on ours. July 1st in his is Catherine Winkworth, who was English but isn't in ours. On that day our list commemorates three generations of Venns who are post 1776.
Something that is a bit surprising from here is that his list includes various writers and other worthies, Chaucer, Shakespeare etc. They may be respected as worthies but I've never encountered them as being recommended as lives of faith to be emulated or spiritual figures to be followed. Does this actually come from the US Episcopal Church or is it a foible of his own?
Going back to Catherine Winkworth, she is well known and respected here. She even has a memorial in Bristol cathedral. However, by background, she was a Unitarian. Does any shipmate know whether she ever conformed?
The app Universalis is an excellent resource. It contains the RC calendar complete with biographies, the lectionary and the divine office. https://universalis.com/
For those wanting information rather than actual liturgy then the link in Universalis is to About Today. If you want pretty comprehensive coverage albeit from an English perspective then Ben is better. He keeps his eye on at least three different lists. The downfall is that he is mainly photos of saints.
Something that is a bit surprising from here is that his list includes various writers and other worthies, Chaucer, Shakespeare etc. They may be respected as worthies but I've never encountered them as being recommended as lives of faith to be emulated or spiritual figures to be followed. Does this actually come from the US Episcopal Church or is it a foible of his own?
I can't help you with your question. As to the general thrust of your paragraph, many of those he lists would not be on that of the CoE, or here either. They are still helpful in showing Christ's teaching in action.
ISTM that most churches or denominations have their own *favourite* lists. The Franciscan Office Book, used by C of E Franciscans, includes the Usual Suspects, and also (as additional commemorations) various luminaries of the Order.
Some of the latter may well not be commemorated anywhere else, I suppose.
NZ has its own wonderful saints book, too, For All the Saints. As it happens though I have remembered the US Chaplains in a liturgy, I think it was in the last couple of years. A poignant remembrance.
Something that is a bit surprising from here is that his list includes various writers and other worthies, Chaucer, Shakespeare etc. They may be respected as worthies but I've never encountered them as being recommended as lives of faith to be emulated or spiritual figures to be followed. Does this actually come from the US Episcopal Church or is it a foible of his own?
I don’t find Chaucer or Shakespeare included either in A Great Cloud of Witnesses: A Calendar of Commemorations (2016) or Lesser Feasts and Fasts 2018, which I think are TEC’s most current calendars of commemoration.
Something that is a bit surprising from here is that his list includes various writers and other worthies, Chaucer, Shakespeare etc. They may be respected as worthies but I've never encountered them as being recommended as lives of faith to be emulated or spiritual figures to be followed. Does this actually come from the US Episcopal Church or is it a foible of his own?
I can't help you with your question. As to the general thrust of your paragraph, many of those he lists would not be on that of the CoE, or here either. They are still helpful in showing Christ's teaching in action.
FWIW the 1959/62 Canadian BCP has Caedmon (Feb 11) as first recorded Christian poet in England c. 680, Thomas Ken, Bishop of Bath and Wells, poet 1711, March 19; Also-ran poets, usually doubled with another qualification, include Thomas Aquinas, doctor and poet, March 7; John Keble of Oxford, scholar and poet, 1866, March 29; and Reginald Heber, Bishop in India, poet, April 3. I always thought there should be a common collect of poets, but nobody seems interested in that idea.
FWIW the 1959/62 Canadian BCP has Caedmon (Feb 11) as first recorded Christian poet in England c. 680, Thomas Ken, Bishop of Bath and Wells, poet 1711, March 19; Also-ran poets, usually doubled with another qualification, include Thomas Aquinas, doctor and poet, March 7; John Keble of Oxford, scholar and poet, 1866, March 29; and Reginald Heber, Bishop in India, poet, April 3. I always thought there should be a common collect of poets, but nobody seems interested in that idea.
A collect in the form of a limerick would be a nice touch. I’ll start with:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
But running out of time,
And making his last rhyme,
Now dwells with Jesus Christ our Lord.
FWIW the 1959/62 Canadian BCP has Caedmon (Feb 11) as first recorded Christian poet in England c. 680, Thomas Ken, Bishop of Bath and Wells, poet 1711, March 19; Also-ran poets, usually doubled with another qualification, include Thomas Aquinas, doctor and poet, March 7; John Keble of Oxford, scholar and poet, 1866, March 29; and Reginald Heber, Bishop in India, poet, April 3. I always thought there should be a common collect of poets, but nobody seems interested in that idea.
A collect in the form of a limerick would be a nice touch. I’ll start with:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
But running out of time,
And making his last rhyme,
Now dwells with Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
I'll alter that slightly, if I may be so bold, to:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
He ran out of time,
And made his last rhyme,
But now dwells with Jesus our Lord.
FWIW the 1959/62 Canadian BCP has Caedmon (Feb 11) as first recorded Christian poet in England c. 680, Thomas Ken, Bishop of Bath and Wells, poet 1711, March 19; Also-ran poets, usually doubled with another qualification, include Thomas Aquinas, doctor and poet, March 7; John Keble of Oxford, scholar and poet, 1866, March 29; and Reginald Heber, Bishop in India, poet, April 3. I always thought there should be a common collect of poets, but nobody seems interested in that idea.
A collect in the form of a limerick would be a nice touch. I’ll start with:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
But running out of time,
And making his last rhyme,
Now dwells with Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
I'll alter that slightly, if I may be so bold, to:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
He ran out of time,
And made his last rhyme,
But now dwells with Jesus our Lord.
You may be so bold. I had thought of something similar, but I wanted the collect-style ending of JCoL.
Nice collaborative work @Bishops Finger and @TheOrganist. All we need do now is de-gender it. Shall we settle on:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
They ran out of time,
And made their last rhyme,
And dwell with Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nice collaborative work @Bishops Finger and @TheOrganist. All we need do now is de-gender it. Shall we settle on:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
They ran out of time,
And made their last rhyme,
And dwell with Christ Jesus our Lord.
Alter the opening words to ‘The poets’ and then you’d have a collect “Common of the Saints: Poets”
Mine, from the Compendium of Lost Propers, was: Almighty God, who did give such grace and sensitivity to the rhythms of language to your servant N. that through verse and image is revealed Your Glory and Loving-kindness to all creatures, so enable us to measure our days with scansion of an eternal nature, through ....
but the limerick beats all.
I don’t find Chaucer or Shakespeare included either in A Great Cloud of Witnesses: A Calendar of Commemorations (2016) or Lesser Feasts and Fasts 2018, which I think are TEC’s most current calendars of commemoration.
I understand LFF 2006 is the current official kalendar of the American church; anything new since then has not yet been formally adopted but may be used provisionally. I wonder whether John Calvin would approve of the day he has in one of those books.
I don’t find Chaucer or Shakespeare included either in A Great Cloud of Witnesses: A Calendar of Commemorations (2016) or Lesser Feasts and Fasts 2018, which I think are TEC’s most current calendars of commemoration.
I understand LFF 2006 is the current official kalendar of the American church; anything new since then has not yet been formally adopted but may be used provisionally. I wonder whether John Calvin would approve of the day he has in one of those books.
He’s probably be even more perplexed to find himself in the Calendar of Commemorations in The Book of Common Worship (2018) of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)—that is, after he got over his surprise that there is such a calendar in the book at all.
I thought LFF 2018 had General C invention approval, but I certainly may have misunderstood.
Comments
Correct.
My sources tell me that Philip is in the niche originally occupied by his mother before her re-interment in Israel.
I've done a bit of further research, such as are the amusements we are permitted under the provincial lockdown. An 85-year old cousin tells me that she was too young to remember if oranges were to be had in Renfrew during the war outside Xmas stockings, but she recalls the excitement when marmalade oranges became available again after WWII, as the making of preserves was a major social activity among Presbyterian women. She does recall that sliced oranges were available in tins around then, but only recalls mandarins from her teens,
More appropriate to the thread, I have found out that the United Church of Canada suggests orange as a possible liturgical colour for Creation Time in Pentecost and for Ember Days. Full Homely Divinity suggests orange for Confessors, Monastics, and Matrons, but I don't know of anywhere which has adopted this variation.
I had heard of it en passant but ws insufficiently curious at the time to learn more. However, this site (https://www.ecen.org/creation-time) will provide some information although here it seems to be a pre-Advent or late-Trinitytide phenomenon. The United Church of Canada seems to put Pentecost 2 in September, as well (https://united-church.ca/worship-liturgical-season/creation-time-1), as does the Church of Scotland (https://churchofscotland.org.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/2020/creation-time-begins). This is all very new to me.
The only similar division of Ordinary Time after Pentecost I’ve encountered is Kingdomtide, and I’ve only encountered that among United Methodists.
Meanwhile, I have to say that the idea of orange as a liturgical color sounds like something Mark Schweizer would have put into one of his Liturgical Mysteries. (In fact, I think he did, but I can’t remember which one.)
Dearmer certainly mentions yellow, but my copy of The Parson's Handbook is in such poor condition that I fear to open it, in case it finally disintegrates!
I did try to qualify my remark by saying *it seems*...
YMMV...
Try using an online version: http://anglicanhistory.org/dearmer/handbook/1899/index1899.html
Colours are dscussed in this section: http://anglicanhistory.org/dearmer/handbook/1899/chapter03.html
No, I don't think so.
IIRC (it's been a while since I saw the vestments, and I can't find a photo), the material is not *shiny*.
Thanks for the links!
That's what I call our local orange-and-lemon stuff...though their design is quite conservative IIRC - it's the colours that are a bit different...
PD messed around an awful with the colours section of 'The Parson's Handbook' and in the 1932 edition he stopped being prescriptive at all, and gave a series of alternatives - one for churches of very limited means, a second as a sort of normal, and lastly the all-singing-all-dancing scheme that he had drawn up for Liverpool Cathedral a few years earlier. Plus Dearmer himself says that a lot of his suggestions are suggestions; unlike the chaps who wrote Ritual Notes who seem to treat this stuff as though it is the Law and the Prophets.
This I may have asked before. Why is it that St Margaret seems to be associated with hospitality? There used to be St Margaret's Hotel in Bedford Road, Bloomsbury, and I know of at least one (two, I think) parish hall bearing her name.
St Leonard seems to be associated with ex-criminals or others otherwise at risk. I know of a transitional residence and of an organisation that provides assistance to newly released prisoners and to those potentially homeless.
Ideas? TIA.
Wikipedia has a reasonable summary of St. Leonard, including why he is associated with the release of prisoners here.
Bearded ladies, Jumping Jews, and similar revels aren't, however, particularly associated with St. Leonard </blackadder>
I have also since posting cleared up the St Leonard non-mystery. We now rejoin our regular programming.
Oh dear, have I broken a masonic secret here? I miss it, but visitations in the end petered out and it died.
The late (and most definitely great) James Kiefer prepared a calendar for saints remembered in the Episcopal Church. We use it daily. It's easily available - just key in his name and follow the links. There's an entry on the relevant day, clicking on the link gives a short biography etc. Some of those are probably not remembered elsewhere, such as a group of US chaplains killed in WW II when their ship was sunk. The nuns who died in the wreck of the Deutschland are also remembered.
https://universalis.com/
It includes propers for various saints, and other holy women and men who have been part of British church history, along with brief biographies of each.
Given the sheer number of such saints, holy women etc. etc. down the ages, and in all denominations, it would be a bit of a job to cope with all of them!
The excellent Simon Kershaw's excellent Almanac is, well… excellent!
The View tab gives you on screen access to everything you need for the day.
Understandably, we don't have many of his North American names and he doesn't include many of our Anglo Saxon and recent British names. Today, for example, is a blank day on his list but is St Ethedreda on ours. July 1st in his is Catherine Winkworth, who was English but isn't in ours. On that day our list commemorates three generations of Venns who are post 1776.
Something that is a bit surprising from here is that his list includes various writers and other worthies, Chaucer, Shakespeare etc. They may be respected as worthies but I've never encountered them as being recommended as lives of faith to be emulated or spiritual figures to be followed. Does this actually come from the US Episcopal Church or is it a foible of his own?
Going back to Catherine Winkworth, she is well known and respected here. She even has a memorial in Bristol cathedral. However, by background, she was a Unitarian. Does any shipmate know whether she ever conformed?
For those wanting information rather than actual liturgy then the link in Universalis is to About Today. If you want pretty comprehensive coverage albeit from an English perspective then Ben is better. He keeps his eye on at least three different lists. The downfall is that he is mainly photos of saints.
I can't help you with your question. As to the general thrust of your paragraph, many of those he lists would not be on that of the CoE, or here either. They are still helpful in showing Christ's teaching in action.
Some of the latter may well not be commemorated anywhere else, I suppose.
NZ has its own wonderful saints book, too, For All the Saints. As it happens though I have remembered the US Chaplains in a liturgy, I think it was in the last couple of years. A poignant remembrance.
I agree entirely.
FWIW the 1959/62 Canadian BCP has Caedmon (Feb 11) as first recorded Christian poet in England c. 680, Thomas Ken, Bishop of Bath and Wells, poet 1711, March 19; Also-ran poets, usually doubled with another qualification, include Thomas Aquinas, doctor and poet, March 7; John Keble of Oxford, scholar and poet, 1866, March 29; and Reginald Heber, Bishop in India, poet, April 3. I always thought there should be a common collect of poets, but nobody seems interested in that idea.
A collect in the form of a limerick would be a nice touch. I’ll start with:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
But running out of time,
And making his last rhyme,
Now dwells with Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
I'll alter that slightly, if I may be so bold, to:
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
He ran out of time,
And made his last rhyme,
But now dwells with Jesus our Lord.
You may be so bold. I had thought of something similar, but I wanted the collect-style ending of JCoL.
How about *And dwells with Christ Jesus our Lord*?
This poet the Church has adored
Believed in the power of the Word.
They ran out of time,
And made their last rhyme,
And dwell with Christ Jesus our Lord.
Alter the opening words to ‘The poets’ and then you’d have a collect “Common of the Saints: Poets”
And even better if you you reverse "now dwells" to "dwells now".
Almighty God, who did give such grace and sensitivity to the rhythms of language to your servant N. that through verse and image is revealed Your Glory and Loving-kindness to all creatures, so enable us to measure our days with scansion of an eternal nature, through ....
but the limerick beats all.
I thought LFF 2018 had General C invention approval, but I certainly may have misunderstood.