There was also the old felony-murder rule: a killing committed in the course of carrying out a felony was a murder.
Still is the rule in my jurisdiction.
As it is here - the old was meant as showing age rather than former, if that makes sense. IIRC, the rule formed part of the prosecution case against Ronald Ryan, the last person executed in Australia. A prison warder was killed in the course of Ryan's escaping from gaol. He denied firing the fatal shot, but rather that it had been his co-accused. On appeal, the court held that that it did not matter who of them fired it.
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Exactly - the case against Ryan was put on several bases and any one would have been sufficient. The case has notoriety because the State Premier, Henry Bolte, refused to recommend* an exercise of mercy in reducing the sentence to life imprisonment. That would have been a standard recommendation. Another factor was his totally inconsiderate approach to the case - when asked what he was doing at the time of the execution, he replied that he was in his bathroom going through the 3 s-s.
*Strictly speaking, the exercise of mercy would have been by the State Governor, but of course he would have acted in accordance with advice from the government.
A prison warder was killed in the course of Ryan's escaping from gaol.
Now that highlights a couple of differences. Here (the US) that sentence would read: “A prison warden was killed in the course of Ryan’s escaping from jail.”
And, I should probably add, “prison” and “jail” are not the same thing here. Similar, but distinct.
A prison warder was killed in the course of Ryan's escaping from gaol.
Now that highlights a couple of differences. Here (the US) that sentence would read: “A prison warden was killed in the course of Ryan’s escaping from jail.”
And, I should probably add, “prison” and “jail” are not the same thing here. Similar, but distinct.
Little differences that make life interesting. 45 years ago, when I was in Law School, felonies were those criminal offences punishable by penal servitude, while misdemeanours were punishable by imprisonment. That very arbitrary distinction made no difference in practice.
A prison warder was killed in the course of Ryan's escaping from gaol.
Now that highlights a couple of differences. Here (the US) that sentence would read: “A prison warden was killed in the course of Ryan’s escaping from jail.”
And, I should probably add, “prison” and “jail” are not the same thing here. Similar, but distinct.
If "prison" and "jail" are not the same thing, then surely you wouldn't have a prison warden at a jail?
Another curious difference. In the filmlets of Chauvin being sentenced yesterday, the judge audibly sentences him to 270 months. Over here, neither in ordinary speech nor in sentencing convicts does anyone normally measure time in months above about 18 or 21 months.
From checking this morning, all the reports have converted this to either 22½ years or 22 years and 6 months, which are the more normal usages here. On sentences, though, it would be unusual at that sort of duration to sentence for anything other than a number of years.
Is it the normal usage in the US to measure quite long periods of time in months the way that it seems to be with lbs and weight?
And @Nick Tamen what is the difference in US usage between a prison and a jail.
I think in England and Wales, whatever the enterprise you were engaged in, if you were found to have been carrying a gun and then used it, it would be just about impossible to persuade anyone that that wasn't an intention to kill if necessary to whatever one was doing.
The scope of joint enterprise gets argued about quite a lot in law schools but as a legal principle remains alive and well here.
The word "slain" for a person having been violently killed, seems to have fallen out of usage in UK English, but still seems to crop up in the US in media headlines: "3 slain in drive by shooting" etc.
The word "slain" for a person having been violently killed, seems to have fallen out of usage in UK English, but still seems to crop up in the US in media headlines: "3 slain in drive by shooting" etc.
It’s the same with ‘slay’ and ‘slew’ too. That whole verb family has dropped out of more general use.
Is it the normal usage in the US to measure quite long periods of time in months the way that it seems to be with lbs and weight?
No, it’s not. It is, however, normal court usage, at least where I live, to measure sentences of imprisonment in months. Don’t ask me why.
And @Nick Tamen what is the difference in US usage between a prison and a jail.
Generally speaking, a jails are operated by a local government—e.g., “the county jail,” though there are also jails in the federal court system—as places where a person is held when arrested, while awaiting trial or sentencing, or to serve a short (30 days, perhaps) sentence for a misdemeanor. A prison is operated by a state or by the federal government and is for persons convicted of felonies.
You might have seen in the bits of sentencing you watched that the judge remanded Chauvin to the custody of the Minnesota Department or Commissioner of Corrections (or words to that effect). That would be prison. My assumption is that prior to sentencing, Chauvin was in the custody of the Hennepin County Sheriff’s Department, in the county jail.
The word "slain" for a person having been violently killed, seems to have fallen out of usage in UK English, but still seems to crop up in the US in media headlines: "3 slain in drive by shooting" etc.
It’s the same with ‘slay’ and ‘slew’ too. That whole verb family has dropped out of more general use.
Does anyone still say, "You slay me!" in response to a terrible pun or suchlike? It's a long time since I heard that.
The word "slain" for a person having been violently killed, seems to have fallen out of usage in UK English, but still seems to crop up in the US in media headlines: "3 slain in drive by shooting" etc.
It’s the same with ‘slay’ and ‘slew’ too. That whole verb family has dropped out of more general use.
Does anyone still say, "You slay me!" in response to a terrible pun or suchlike? It's a long time since I heard that.
Penitentiary is the main term for federal prisons in Canada. Police have cells which they'll use overnight. Provincial correctional centres (terms vary) hold people on Remand. Mostly a person is sentenced to more than 2 years they go to a penitentiary. "2 years less a day" sentences keep a person in provincial custody. A jailed person is frequently called an inmate.
The word "slain" for a person having been violently killed, seems to have fallen out of usage in UK English, but still seems to crop up in the US in media headlines: "3 slain in drive by shooting" etc.
It’s the same with ‘slay’ and ‘slew’ too. That whole verb family has dropped out of more general use.
We got "slay, slew, slain" when I was growing up in southern California and reading the news.
In the past five years or so I've been coming across "slayed" almost without exception. I looked the thing up (old proofreader's habits die hard) and apparently the rule (new?) is that "slayed" is used in the metaphorical "what a great job you did on stage" sense, and "slew" for the murder.
If "prison" and "jail" are not the same thing, then surely you wouldn't have a prison warden at a jail?
No, we wouldn’t. I was simply adjusting the spelling of Gee D’s sentence.
Adjusting to US usage, that is!
No county or other local authority gaols here, and I can't think there are any federal ones either - perhaps very short-term sentences for those in the armed forces would be the closest. I assume some agreement between the federal and state governments gives funding to states to hold those charged and/or convicted of federal offences.
Part of a major NSW gaol is strictly called a penitentiary, but that term is rarely used in ordinary speech or writing.
See my response to @Enoch (which was in the same post as my comment about adjusting the spelling to which you responded, and which I hope I’ve linked to here).
Gee D is older than I, for my part I would go for "jail" as the spelling without hesitation.
I'm not sure what happens officially. I looked at the couple of jails/prisons most familiar to me, and it seems that NSW calls all of theirs "correctional centres" and the local ACT one is just a "centre".
Gee D is older than I, for my part I would go for "jail" as the spelling without hesitation.
I'm not sure what happens officially. I looked at the couple of jails/prisons most familiar to me, and it seems that NSW calls all of theirs "correctional centres" and the local ACT one is just a "centre".
If "prison" and "jail" are not the same thing, then surely you wouldn't have a prison warden at a jail?
No, we wouldn’t. I was simply adjusting the spelling of Gee D’s sentence.
Adjusting to US usage, that is!
No county or other local authority gaols here, and I can't think there are any federal ones either - perhaps very short-term sentences for those in the armed forces would be the closest. I assume some agreement between the federal and state governments gives funding to states to hold those charged and/or convicted of federal offences.
Part of a major NSW gaol is strictly called a penitentiary, but that term is rarely used in ordinary speech or writing.
There is a military detention centre at Holsworthy in NSW - one of my sons spent a few days there for a disciplinary infraction.
Gee D is older than I, for my part I would go for "jail" as the spelling without hesitation.
I'm not sure what happens officially. I looked at the couple of jails/prisons most familiar to me, and it seems that NSW calls all of theirs "correctional centres" and the local ACT one is just a "centre".
Newspapers etc. seem quite happy with "jail".
What would you use when drafting?
It's never come up, and not likely to in federal law. I'll write about 'imprisonment' but I can't think of a situation where I'd need to mention where a person gets imprisoned.
I suppose I can have a quick look around the database if I remember... given I'm having the next week and a half off... and what with Canberra just making masks compulsory for the very first time since the pandemic began, who the hell knows what's happening when I "return" to work...
It's never come up, and not likely to in federal law. I'll write about 'imprisonment' but I can't think of a situation where I'd need to mention where a person gets imprisoned.
Sensible, but not so long ago there was a distinction between penal servitude and imprisonment. It's more than time that such distinctions disappeared.
It's never come up, and not likely to in federal law. I'll write about 'imprisonment' but I can't think of a situation where I'd need to mention where a person gets imprisoned.
Sensible, but not so long ago there was a distinction between penal servitude and imprisonment. It's more than time that such distinctions disappeared.
"Penal servitude" definitely sounds like the kind of phrase that would have been cleaned up on the grounds it was old-fashioned, possibly long before my career ever started.
To me, it smacks of being chained to the wall, hands above your head to add to the misery - will that show up in a re-write of the penal provisions of the taxation laws?
"gaol" is perhaps the most unlovely word in the British lexicon. I know we Americans have some doozies of our own. But Webster for all his faults never did a kinder thing than inventing the spelling "jail".
It's never come up, and not likely to in federal law. I'll write about 'imprisonment' but I can't think of a situation where I'd need to mention where a person gets imprisoned.
Sensible, but not so long ago there was a distinction between penal servitude and imprisonment. It's more than time that such distinctions disappeared.
"Penal servitude" definitely sounds like the kind of phrase that would have been cleaned up on the grounds it was old-fashioned, possibly long before my career ever started.
To me, it smacks of being chained to the wall, hands above your head to add to the misery - will that show up in a re-write of the penal provisions of the taxation laws?
I was today years old when I first came across the barbarism "jailor".
I only know it as an American spelling from Countdown, a Channel 4 TV numbers and words game, because I saw someone have it disallowed. (Yes, I was playing along.)
I think you can take it that Orfeo and I know the strict meaning of the term.
I didn't. It sounds like a very antiquated concept.
I'm surprised at that. No idea when it dropped from the NSW Crimes Act - or those in other States - but it was there when I did criminal law. Just counted that as 55 years!
Oh well, if it was a thing 55 years ago, I can't imagine why it wasn't a thing by the time I got around to studying. Of course, I had to get born first...
I was today years old when I first came across the barbarism "jailor".
I only know it as an American spelling from Countdown, a Channel 4 TV numbers and words game, because I saw someone have it disallowed. (Yes, I was playing along.)
I looked it up on Google ngrams (highly recommended time sink). Apparently it was the preferred spelling until about 1820 when "jailer" crossed over. The "o" spelling flatlined since then while the "e" spelling has increased.
Comments
As it is here - the old was meant as showing age rather than former, if that makes sense. IIRC, the rule formed part of the prosecution case against Ronald Ryan, the last person executed in Australia. A prison warder was killed in the course of Ryan's escaping from gaol. He denied firing the fatal shot, but rather that it had been his co-accused. On appeal, the court held that that it did not matter who of them fired it.
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Its the rule of Joint enterprise.
*Strictly speaking, the exercise of mercy would have been by the State Governor, but of course he would have acted in accordance with advice from the government.
And, I should probably add, “prison” and “jail” are not the same thing here. Similar, but distinct.
Agreed. But absolutely wonderful.
Little differences that make life interesting. 45 years ago, when I was in Law School, felonies were those criminal offences punishable by penal servitude, while misdemeanours were punishable by imprisonment. That very arbitrary distinction made no difference in practice.
If "prison" and "jail" are not the same thing, then surely you wouldn't have a prison warden at a jail?
From checking this morning, all the reports have converted this to either 22½ years or 22 years and 6 months, which are the more normal usages here. On sentences, though, it would be unusual at that sort of duration to sentence for anything other than a number of years.
Is it the normal usage in the US to measure quite long periods of time in months the way that it seems to be with lbs and weight?
And @Nick Tamen what is the difference in US usage between a prison and a jail.
I think in England and Wales, whatever the enterprise you were engaged in, if you were found to have been carrying a gun and then used it, it would be just about impossible to persuade anyone that that wasn't an intention to kill if necessary to whatever one was doing.
The scope of joint enterprise gets argued about quite a lot in law schools but as a legal principle remains alive and well here.
No, it’s not. It is, however, normal court usage, at least where I live, to measure sentences of imprisonment in months. Don’t ask me why.
Generally speaking, a jails are operated by a local government—e.g., “the county jail,” though there are also jails in the federal court system—as places where a person is held when arrested, while awaiting trial or sentencing, or to serve a short (30 days, perhaps) sentence for a misdemeanor. A prison is operated by a state or by the federal government and is for persons convicted of felonies.
You might have seen in the bits of sentencing you watched that the judge remanded Chauvin to the custody of the Minnesota Department or Commissioner of Corrections (or words to that effect). That would be prison. My assumption is that prior to sentencing, Chauvin was in the custody of the Hennepin County Sheriff’s Department, in the county jail.
Does anyone still say, "You slay me!" in response to a terrible pun or suchlike? It's a long time since I heard that.
Not forgetting forred (forehead) and wesket (waistcoat.)
Slay, Queen?
It's a metaphorical, rather than literal, use, but ...
We got "slay, slew, slain" when I was growing up in southern California and reading the news.
In the past five years or so I've been coming across "slayed" almost without exception. I looked the thing up (old proofreader's habits die hard) and apparently the rule (new?) is that "slayed" is used in the metaphorical "what a great job you did on stage" sense, and "slew" for the murder.
But "slayed" still slays me. Ugh.
Adjusting to US usage, that is!
No county or other local authority gaols here, and I can't think there are any federal ones either - perhaps very short-term sentences for those in the armed forces would be the closest. I assume some agreement between the federal and state governments gives funding to states to hold those charged and/or convicted of federal offences.
Part of a major NSW gaol is strictly called a penitentiary, but that term is rarely used in ordinary speech or writing.
Even earlier, you referred to a difference between prison and jail - not known here and I'd appreciate your setting out that difference.
I'm not sure what happens officially. I looked at the couple of jails/prisons most familiar to me, and it seems that NSW calls all of theirs "correctional centres" and the local ACT one is just a "centre".
Newspapers etc. seem quite happy with "jail".
What would you use when drafting?
There is a military detention centre at Holsworthy in NSW - one of my sons spent a few days there for a disciplinary infraction.
Naughty boy! Is it for short sentence use only?
It's never come up, and not likely to in federal law. I'll write about 'imprisonment' but I can't think of a situation where I'd need to mention where a person gets imprisoned.
I suppose I can have a quick look around the database if I remember... given I'm having the next week and a half off... and what with Canberra just making masks compulsory for the very first time since the pandemic began, who the hell knows what's happening when I "return" to work...
One can only hope so. The military prison @ Holsworthy is a horrible place
Sensible, but not so long ago there was a distinction between penal servitude and imprisonment. It's more than time that such distinctions disappeared.
"Penal servitude" definitely sounds like the kind of phrase that would have been cleaned up on the grounds it was old-fashioned, possibly long before my career ever started.
Not sure why it is a barbarism, apart from the fact that it should be gaoler.
"Jailer" would be just fine.
Per Collins @ https://www.collinsdictionary.com/amp/english/penal-servitude (and also Oxford)
while I assume without going to look that for imprisonment it's the deprivation of liberty that is the punishment.
I didn't. It sounds like a very antiquated concept.
I'm surprised at that. No idea when it dropped from the NSW Crimes Act - or those in other States - but it was there when I did criminal law. Just counted that as 55 years!
I looked it up on Google ngrams (highly recommended time sink). Apparently it was the preferred spelling until about 1820 when "jailer" crossed over. The "o" spelling flatlined since then while the "e" spelling has increased.
A couple of days ago you were applauding its removal.