Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • "The past is a different country; they do things differently there."
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Reminds me of a book I came across on Christian parenting entirely devoted to the application of the text “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: But he who loves him chasteneth him betimes.” How hard, how often, and with what.

    At least when my parents hit me, it wasn't out of religious belief - they just found me particularly annoying at the time.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    FWIW, Walter Ong has an interesting theory of why and how schools went co-ed in his theories on orality and literacy, effects on the mind, etc. He says that there was a pretty universal belief that in order to learn Latin, you had to have it more or less beaten into you (physically, I mean)--and since Latin was the foundation of the whole educational experience, that meant beating people was a commonplace and necessary (in their eyes) experience, and apparently they didn't think that would mix with having gurrrrrrllls present (and beaten). Insert arguments about constitutions here...

    I'd say it's a pretty shitty teacher who can't teach a subject without beating people.

    It's probably a different topic if it goes on: corporal punishment in schools. "The strap" was used in schools up until about 35 years ago in elementary schools here (K to grade 8), both the tax-payer funded public schools and Roman catholic sepatate schools. It could only be given by the vice principal or principal. If you were sent to the hallway from class more than 3 times in one week, the VP or P would collect the students and strap them before next class. I was a talker, and was frequently sent to the hall, sometimes not recalling how many times, so I developed the practice of simply leaving the school.

    In the private boys boarding school I went to when my parents were overseas, they delivered "swats". The student went to the front of the classroom, grasped knees with hands and was struck with a wooden paddle over the backside. Teachers could give up to 5 swats. If it was more than that the Headmaster had to be called. Swearing at a teacher was worth 10, talking in chapel weas 3 for example. Errors in writing down poetry memorization was one swat per error over 5 errors. A lost rticle could be retreived for 1 swat per thing in the lost+found. I was low on the receiving end for boys with 112 swats received in my first year.

    I guess didn't have other than shitty teachers I guess until university.
  • I was so relieved to find that I could raise my kid without spanking or slapping or any of that bullshit. I mean, he's a very good kid, and I only have experience of one, which makes it hard when we're discussing corporal punishment--but it just wasn't necessary. (Bar the loud swat on the poofy diaper at age 3 when he ran into the street with cars around--and that wasn't pain, that was surprise and noise.)
  • @Lamb Chopped Same here the only time I hit one of my children was when the older one was age 3 and he ran into the street. Thankfully no cars coming but they could have. I am not sure who was more surprised that he was swatted him or me.
  • We were never violent with our children. Once, I did stand fully clothed in a cold shower with a child-parasite-maniac once who was going completely nuts windmill punching and biting. I had no other ideas. We still talk about it 35 years later.
  • :lol:

    Yeah, the cold shower thing sounds about right. I think I've had occasions where I actually started mini-tantrumming back. It sort of freaks them out, and they stop. Sometimes.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    We were never violent with our children. Once, I did stand fully clothed in a cold shower with a child-parasite-maniac once who was going completely nuts windmill punching and biting. I had no other ideas. We still talk about it 35 years later.

    Was that your penance for having sired a monster?

  • Generally speaking, the penance for siring or bearing a monster is to raise the monster.

    Ask how I know. :wink:
  • The monster is finishing a PhD, and is a lovely human being. So is another who for about 8 months screamed. I would come home from work and walk for 6 hours wearing a baby on my chest carrier.
  • Ah, those were the days. My monster lived in the chest carrier,* except for when I got to lie down myself. Gave me some great muscles, I'll tell you that.

    * turned out to have a nasty case of acid reflux undiagnosed till 18 months. They scoped him and showed us the damage. Poor monster.
  • @Lamb Chopped Same here the only time I hit one of my children was when the older one was age 3 and he ran into the street. Thankfully no cars coming but they could have. I am not sure who was more surprised that he was swatted him or me.

    Another swat for dashing across a road. I think I swatted out of relief they hadn't been run over and killed. The child was open-mouthed with shock and I burst into tears.😢

    @Lamb Chopped I once flung myself in the floor in a near-empty furniture department and yelled as one of the boys was doing: it worked, neither had a major tantrum ever again. 😯
  • Reading my American wife's grandmother's reminiscences today I was struck by her frequent use of 'boughten', as in a boughten rug that was bought in a store instead of being hand made at home. I haven't heard that word for a long time, and wonder if it is still much used? It sounds like one of the archaic English words that survived in the USA longer than in the UK.
  • I've never heard it live, but I recognize it. By the form, I'd say you're right. I suspect it slipped out of usage as we got to the point where most things were "boughten" rather than homemade.
  • I’ve never heard it either.
  • Store boughten bread. Common in rural Sask.
  • Store boughten bread. Common in rural Sask.

    Here we'd say store-bought bread. I don't know if I've ever seen "boughten" before.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Neither had we, but it sounds like a past participle.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Better to go down dignified
    With boughten friendship at your side
    Than none at all. Provide, provide!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Sorry, can't place that.
  • It's Robert Frost, Provide, Provide - so an American poet.

    I wondered if boughten was West Country dialect, which a lot of so-called Americanisms are, but not that I could find, and I am not sure enough that I remember it being used.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thanks for the attribution.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    It's Robert Frost, Provide, Provide - so an American poet.

    I wondered if boughten was West Country dialect, which a lot of so-called Americanisms are, but not that I could find, and I am not sure enough that I remember it being used.

    Boughten is one of a number of archaic words that crop up from time to time in the speech of some children who assume regularity where current usage has given regular forms up.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    Does it crop up in the ‘Little House’ books? Sounds like it might.
  • I should have checked the dictionaries. Both the Concise Oxford and Webster's (our duelling weapons of choice) list 'boughten' as a dialect word with no indication that it is not considered to be in current use on either side of the water.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Boughten is one of a number of archaic words that crop up from time to time in the speech of some children who assume regularity where current usage has given regular forms up.
    Not sure about that as an explanation. If it was, wouldn't they say either 'buyed' (pronounced buy'd') or just possibly 'boughted'?

  • Since I hear it here, it's not about the Little House books, British dialect. It's something that goes with Ukrainian accents and pickup trucks "so we're having store boughten bread with farm eggs for breakfast eh?" "yup, then we gotta go to the back 40 to see about the fence the deer went through."
  • Speaking of past participles, but this is slightly beyond the scope of this thread as it relates to antipodeans - I have heard some (not all) Kiwis and Aussies pronounce words like "known" and "grown" with an extra syllable. Has anybody else heard "knowen" and "growen"? Is it from particular regions?
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Store boughten bread. Common in rural Sask.

    Here we'd say store-bought bread. I don't know if I've ever seen "boughten" before.

    I've seen it in a bunch of places, but all old writings (probably contemporary with @Stercus Tauri's grandmother).
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited July 2021
    mousethief wrote: »
    Store boughten bread. Common in rural Sask.

    Here we'd say store-bought bread.
    Yes, “store-bought” is very common here (American South), generally in contrast to homemade.

    Gee D wrote: »
    Neither had we, but it sounds like a past participle.
    Or an adjective form, like “oaken” or “wooden.”

  • Speaking of past participles, but this is slightly beyond the scope of this thread as it relates to antipodeans - I have heard some (not all) Kiwis and Aussies pronounce words like "known" and "grown" with an extra syllable. Has anybody else heard "knowen" and "growen"? Is it from particular regions?

    This is heard someplaces in Canada too. The two syllable word I hear on American media is dog. It sounds line daw-awg to me. Australians saying no is not quite two syllables and inconsistent, moreso if it's a vigorous no.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Neither had we, but it sounds like a past participle.
    Or an adjective form, like “oaken” or “wooden.”

    But they are adjectives from a noun, rather than this unusual adverb from the verb. I should have picked up that quotation as being from Robert Frost - it is just the sort of word he'd use.

    As to some more recent posts, "store-bought" for cakes etc is common here, not much for bread.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Neither had we, but it sounds like a past participle.
    Or an adjective form, like “oaken” or “wooden.”

    But they are adjectives from a noun, rather than this unusual adverb from the verb.
    Sure, but it still sounds like the adjectives formed from nouns like “oaken” and “wooden.” I wouldn’t completely dismiss the possibility for conflation that might present.

  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited July 2021
    Gee D wrote: »
    But they are adjectives from a noun, rather than this unusual adverb from the verb.

    I assume you meant "adjective from the verb".

    Wroughten is also a word, although not one that I think enjoys current use. There are probably some other similar archaic uses.

    Bespoken follows the same pattern, no?
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    But they are adjectives from a noun, rather than this unusual adverb from the verb.

    I assume you meant "adjective from the verb".

    Wroughten is also a word, although not one that I think enjoys current use. There are probably some other similar archaic uses.

    Bespoken follows the same pattern, no?

    No, I meant adjectives "wooden" from the noun "wood" and "oaken" from the noun "oak".

    I've not heard "wroughten" used and can't remember seeing it written either. "Wrought" is used in the combination of "wrought iron", but not commonly otherwise. You're right with "bespoken" but neither it or "bespoke" is a word you'd hear frequently.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    In terms of adjectives from verbs, I suppose ‘begotten’ could be added to ‘boughten’.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    The point that underlies this is that 'buy' is already an irregular verb with an irregular past tense and past participle 'bought'. They're the same but that's not that unusual. There are several other examples in English grammar. What's slightly unusual, though not unique, is that a dialect should have added an extra irregular form, rather than a regular one.

  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    There was a discussion on "word of mouth" with Michael Rosen https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000xs03 with an academic from Chicago, looking at the irregularities of English. Apparently it is the most common words which have the most irregularities carried forward from the past.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    The point that underlies this is that 'buy' is already an irregular verb with an irregular past tense and past participle 'bought'. They're the same but that's not that unusual. There are several other examples in English grammar. What's slightly unusual, though not unique, is that a dialect should have added an extra irregular form, rather than a regular one.

    Yes, this struck me. It reminds me of children who can double up with past endings, e.g., "wented", as well as obviously "goed". But don't really know this dialect.
  • Those adjectives from nouns - wooden, oaken etc - are specific to materials. Woollen, golden and the more archaic or poetic silken, brazen (from brass), leaden, silvern. I only know this because it is the same in Dutch, and when you learn a foreign language you often find out things about your own language.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited July 2021
    Penny S wrote: »
    There was a discussion on "word of mouth" with Michael Rosen https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000xs03 with an academic from Chicago, looking at the irregularities of English. Apparently it is the most common words which have the most irregularities carried forward from the past.

    Yes, common well-established words tend to retain older forms. They were so common that old usages stuck.

    A good example is how we form plurals. For a long time English has regarded adding an "s" or perhaps "es" to be the way to mark a plural. But then you have things like man/men, child/children and ox/oxen that reflect an older grammar.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    There was only one time one of our children walked out onto a busy street. He has about three. I was at home with him at the time. I was in the process of changing out our storm window from the glass covering to the screen covering. Son was right beside me. I remember sensing he was not beside me anymore and started to look around for him. About that time, I heard honking at the street corner and started to walk over there. When I got there an adult was holding my son's hand. He had attempted to walk across the street. He stated he was walking to get his mommy who worked just a couple of blocks from our house. (We had walked down there several times before so he knew the way.) I did not swat him. There was no need. As I recall we simply sat down with him and explained that he was not to leave our yard without having mommy or daddy with him. We never had the problem again I think he was so frightened by the experience he had learned his own lesson.

    Even with good supervision, kids can disappear. Fortunately, nothing serious happened.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    No, I meant adjectives "wooden" from the noun "wood" and "oaken" from the noun "oak".

    It was the "adverb" in your sentence that I was quibbling with ;)
    orfeo wrote: »
    A good example is how we form plurals. For a long time English has regarded adding an "s" or perhaps "es" to be the way to mark a plural. But then you have things like man/men, child/children and ox/oxen that reflect an older grammar.

    Things like shoon and hosen are no longer current. Brethren is, but is no longer used as the general plural of "brother", except perhaps by my daughter when she thinks she's being funny.
  • SparrowSparrow Shipmate
    [quote="Leorning Cniht;c-438320"

    Things like shoon and hosen are no longer current. Brethren is, but is no longer used as the general plural of "brother", except perhaps by my daughter when she thinks she's being funny. [/quote]

    And I have heard feminists use the invented "sistren"
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    There was only one time one of our children walked out onto a busy street. He has about three. I was at home with him at the time. I was in the process of changing out our storm window from the glass covering to the screen covering. Son was right beside me. I remember sensing he was not beside me anymore and started to look around for him. About that time, I heard honking at the street corner and started to walk over there. When I got there an adult was holding my son's hand. He had attempted to walk across the street. He stated he was walking to get his mommy who worked just a couple of blocks from our house. (We had walked down there several times before so he knew the way.) I did not swat him. There was no need. As I recall we simply sat down with him and explained that he was not to leave our yard without having mommy or daddy with him. We never had the problem again I think he was so frightened by the experience he had learned his own lesson.

    Even with good supervision, kids can disappear. Fortunately, nothing serious happened.

    It's another topic, but the car danger has made it such that children don't play in front of houses and in the street as they did when I was young. In terms of "stranger danger", yes, there's always someone and some terrible occurrences. As a child we went everywhere, unsupervised. I learned to take the bus independently at age 7 so I could go to the YMCA in Saturdays. I usually went, but sometimes we did other things and didn't get there. We played outside everyday: "come home when the street lights switch on". With our kids, we were very much promoting of outdoor (supposedly) dangerous play like climbing trees and throwing things, learning to use an axe, light fires, saw and drill, etc.
  • Those adjectives from nouns - wooden, oaken etc - are specific to materials. Woollen, golden and the more archaic or poetic silken, brazen (from brass), leaden, silvern. I only know this because it is the same in Dutch, and when you learn a foreign language you often find out things about your own language.

    This is really helpful.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate

    It was the "adverb" in your sentence that I was quibbling with

    Right, understood.

    [Things like shoon and hosen are no longer current. Brethren is, but is no longer used as the general plural of "brother", except perhaps by my daughter when she thinks she's being funny. [/quote]

    Slowly, silently now the moon
    Walks the night in her silver shoon

    Not exactly poetry, although taught as that, but rather verse.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    If hosen and shoon thou ne'er gavest nane
    The whinnies shall prick thee to the bare bane.
    Fire and fleet and candlelicht
    And Christ receive thy saule


    Never set out to be poetry, but works for me (particularly in the setting by Britten).
  • I read long ago (source long lost) that the "en" on words like woolen, wooden, flaxen, golden, etc., was a genitive ending, which long ago stopped being productive, so the words passed into adjectives and so remain.
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