What is the difference between a con-evo and a chari-evo church ?
what do the terms mean ? (Sorry for my ignorance, I have tried to look it up but got nowhere)
They are both evangelical churches but charismatic church have more emphasis on spiritual gifts. No-one bats an eyelid in my chari church if someone speaks in tongues but at St Helen’s Bishopsgate (conservative-evo) you would get stared at if you did anything as enthusiastic as move your body during a worship song. They both tend to be conservative on dead horse issues but the chari end tends to be more left leaning on social issues.
But there is variation between churches, obviously.
'Con' and 'chari' tend to be Ship of Fools shorthand so you are unlikely to find them on a Google search.
But yes, pretty much as @Heavenlyannie describes aand indeed there are significant sub-divisions within both conservative evangelical and charismatic evangelical churches as she also suggests - 'But there is variation between churches, obviously.'
Neither of these groups are monolithic.
Meanwhile, @Ex_Organist, I'm pleased to hear there's an adult catechetical group in your parish. We have Georgians and Russians too, but I'm not aware of any Ukrainians. There are quite a few Ukrainians around here but I've not seen any in church.
I know an Anglican parish in South Wales that has picked up a good number.
For various reasons formal catechesis has been pretty poor in our parish but I hope that will change over time. I do know of Orthodox parishes where there is a high standard of catechesis but these seem few and far between in my experience so far.
As for other churches, I think @Baptist Trainfan is right in his observations about non-conformist churches here in the UK. I do know of some Baptist churches that were predominantly 'young' in terms of their demographic 20 years ago or so, but which are now becoming quite portly and middle-aged. There seem to be 'trendy' or 'cool' congregations within each and every Christian tradition.
After all, I'm not sure many people wake up in the morning and think, 'Hmmm ... Methodism / Episcopalianism / Presbyterianism ... I wonder what that's all about? I think I'll take a look ...'
No, but I find it interesting that there are a few people like that.
Looping back to this, I was one - at least in so far as when I was really questioning where to make my religious home I looked seriously at the Methodists as I have a load of forebears from them (though very much the Primitives).
I have read the Very Short Introduction to Methodism at least.
Even now - though clearly they’re very different - if I wasn’t a Tractarian prayer book Catholic I’d be a Methodist. Loads of time for them, and still a chapel in the next village.
Though obviously I concede that being able to classify oneself as a Tractarian prayer book Catholic and know enough about Methodism to know why I’m simultaneously attracted to it and not one is not the mark of a normal Englishman…
<snip>No-one bats an eyelid in my chari church if someone speaks in tongues but at St Helen’s Bishopsgate (conservative-evo) you would get stared at if you did anything as enthusiastic as move your body during a worship song. <snip>
This is not surprising given that former Rector, Dick Lucas’s commentary on Colossians in IVP’s Bible Speaks Today series virtually identifies the “Colossian heresy” with the Charismatic Movement of the 1970s.
Attendance at our mid-week youth events is booming – including a large proportion not from church families. However this isn’t really translating into Sunday attendance. Nevertheless we attract about 200-220 worshippers on a typical Sunday, which should be about 2.5 folk on average for every age. But it’s far from an even spread.
Numbers are also booming amongst young children and their parents, in the 30-45 age range.
The third growth group is recent immigrants from Hong Kong, and long-term visitors from the Far East. Many of our services have partial dual language provision for Cantonese speakers.
Elderly members are fewer than a decade or two ago, probably due to changing local demographics. Retired folk tend to prefer moving out of the big city, and although the district is affluent, many of the incomers are from ethnic groups in which Christianity is rare.
Another declining group is UK students. We’re near a major University, but are not currently one of the fashionable churches amongst students of a UCCF flavour. Although we do attract a good number of international students.
We’ve seen a big decline in the 45-60 age range, which is causing funding problems. Traditionally this tends to be the demographic best placed to donate, if a married couple are both professionals at peak earning power but with no mortgage, and offspring have sprung off from the nest. Personally I attribute much of the loss to a growing ‘male headship’ culture, which I think was less prevalent in evangelicalism say a generation ago. My wife was a lone voice at a PCC meeting opposing the motion to give fealty to the Bishop of Ebbsfleet. We know of about a dozen professional women who have cited this as a factor in their decision in recent years to move to a different church after young children’s activities have become less of a priority – often taking families with them.
Another (probably related) factor is a sharp decline in women in their twenties. My estimation of our British members in that decade of life is two couples, 12 or 13 single men but at most only two single women. I’ve seen a similar pattern in other evangelical churches whilst visiting them on holiday. This is the main reason why I question the sustainability of the current male headship culture.
Though somebody's bound to point out that's not the focus of the thread (sorry!) so..
@Lamb Chopped, I thought I was responding to this part of the OP:
Does it depend on the specific flavor involved (COE, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, etc)? Is there any accepted (and correct) explanation?
@Lamb Chopped again... While cooking and doing dishes this evening, I was reflecting more on this conversation. Suddenly the penny dropped and I understood your comment about the focus of the thread.
How we incarnate the Good News in our societies as they are, without worrying about getting people into church is not what @HarryCH wanted to discuss. Sometimes I'm just a little slow on the uptake
At this point, after a day full of crises, I'm not sure WHAT I was talking about, or anybody else. So I'm glad if it made some sense to you...
After all, I'm not sure many people wake up in the morning and think, 'Hmmm ... Methodism / Episcopalianism / Presbyterianism ... I wonder what that's all about? I think I'll take a look ...'
No, but I find it interesting that there are a few people like that.
Looping back to this, I was one - at least in so far as when I was really questioning where to make my religious home I looked seriously at the Methodists as I have a load of forebears from them (though very much the Primitives).
I have read the Very Short Introduction to Methodism at least.
Even now - though clearly they’re very different - if I wasn’t a Tractarian prayer book Catholic I’d be a Methodist. Loads of time for them, and still a chapel in the next village.
I totally get that. As a liberal Catholic Anglican I’ve often said I’d feel more comfortable in a Methodist church than in an evangelical Anglican Church
Thank you so much to both Heavenlyannie and Gamma Gamaliel for explaining the meanings of con-evo and chari-evo. I suppose that 'chari' is pronounced as in 'charism' or 'eucharist' and not as in 'chair'.
Why is 'evo' used as a short form for 'evangelical' where does the 'o' come from ?
Like bottle-o (liquor shop) rabbit-o ( seller of dressed rabbits once common in Depression-era Oz, I guess.
It may be an Oz expression: the Evangelical Union was big in the medical faculty in my youth 50 years back and I recall the enthusiasts being described as “ evos” by those of a non-Evangelical turn of mind.
Like bottle-o (liquor shop) rabbit-o ( seller of dressed rabbits once common in Depression-era Oz, I guess.
It may be an Oz expression: the Evangelical Union was big in the medical faculty in my youth 50 years back and I recall the enthusiasts being described as “ evos” by those of a non-Evangelical turn of mind.
I think Australian's not a bad shout - though feels like it ought to work in Liverpool - see also afternoon= arvo, Salvation Army person = Salvo/the Salvoes, etc
In fact, I think all of those are common to Strine and Scouse.
I saw somewhere, possible QI, that internet encryption codes were or are partially generated by a wall of lava lamps - but I am not exactly sure how.
Apparently it's true.
Basically, representing the state of a lava lamp digitally gives you as random a number as you'll get.
Though now I'm curious about whether electrical frequency makes a difference.
No - all the lamp uses electricity for is resistive heating. The source of the "randomness" is the rather sensitive fluid dynamics in the body of the lamp.
(Technically, this isn't "as random as you'll get", although it's exploiting the chaotic motion to get pretty close. You could measure something like time between radioactive decays of some radioactive sample you had lying around, and that would be fundamentally random at the level of basic physics.)
It's possible that Presbyterian polity mitigated somewhat the worst excesses of clericalism in the Kirk, but I don't know how bad it has been by comparison in Presbyterian churches elsewhere (I'm wondering particularly about Australia and Canada).
The Presbyterian Church in Australia is small, a quick Wiki search showing that just over 2% of Australians identify as Presbyterian. Most Presbyterians here joined the Uniting Church when that was founded 55 or so years ago.
It's possible that Presbyterian polity mitigated somewhat the worst excesses of clericalism in the Kirk, but I don't know how bad it has been by comparison in Presbyterian churches elsewhere (I'm wondering particularly about Australia and Canada).
The Presbyterian Church in Australia is small, a quick Wiki search showing that just over 2% of Australians identify as Presbyterian. Most Presbyterians here joined the Uniting Church when that was founded 55 or so years ago.
Likewise, the Presbyterian Church in Canada is the remnant of those Presbyterians who didn’t participate in the formation of the United Church of Canada in 1925. Wikipedia says about 1.4% of Canadians are members of the PCC.
People have different needs at different times of their lives. I know that what appealed to me when I was 15 would be totally unacceptable now. There is a church near us where the services are more like rock concerts which are just not what mature citizens want. My current church is formal and silences are valued. I don't think you can combine all ages into one style and many will be unhappy.
People have different needs at different times of their lives. I know that what appealed to me when I was 15 would be totally unacceptable now. There is a church near us where the services are more like rock concerts which are just not what mature citizens want. My current church is formal and silences are valued. I don't think you can combine all ages into one style and many will be unhappy.
For me it has little to do with age; musically my tastes are very much towards rock and folk-rock, but I avoid churches that use that genre for reasons of theology and personal baggage.
I'm not convinced that "mature citizens" are actually turned off by rock music per se - the age of many of the classic rock bands would indicate otherwise - Deep Purple, Led Zep, Black Sabbath (aka the Holy Trinity) date from the early 70s and the classic metal bands - Heart, Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, Fleetwood Mac, aren't much younger. I could point to the vintage of Fairport Convention and Jethro Tull as further data points. They and their original fans are all 'mature citizens'.
Nor Jethro Tull or Fairport Convention for that matter, but I presume you are referring to folk rock there. I know I've teased you about Tull before but 'Songs from the Wood' and 'Minstrel in the Gallery' are good albums in the folk-rock idiom, I think.
At any rate, your point is well made. Old rockers are ... old rockers ...
Heck, we don't have to go as far back as the '70s. I saw Orchestral Manouevres ... on 'Later with Jools Holland' the other week and they looked - and sounded - positively ancient. Even 90s indie bands are old.
I'm not convinced that musical taste is the key criteria. As you say, your own tastes incline towards metal and folk rock yet you'd run a mile from rocky style churches for theological reasons.
Some of the Eastern European kids on our parish listen to Death Metal and Industrial Metal and so on but they don't object to boring old Byzantine chant in church.
I enjoy a fair amount of classic rock, metal, and so on. But I can't sing it, which for me means it's not useful for worship. And the challenge for Christian rock / metal is that it has to be both good musically and theologically sound for me to want to listen to it.
I enjoy a fair amount of classic rock, metal, and so on. But I can't sing it, which for me means it's not useful for worship. And the challenge for Christian rock / metal is that it has to be both good musically and theologically sound for me to want to listen to it.
A number of years ago, when I was part of the congregational leadership, I was pushing for a praise (read rock) service. But the music people insisted on staying with a more balanced format. Today's service reflects theirs was the wiser decision. Our service was packed! From rug rats all the way up to elderly--I am getting to be in the latter category.
Lots of college kids today. I think that was because this is the start of Dead Week.
I enjoy a fair amount of classic rock, metal, and so on. But I can't sing it, which for me means it's not useful for worship. And the challenge for Christian rock / metal is that it has to be both good musically and theologically sound for me to want to listen to it.
So that rules 99.9% of it out then ...
And the number of churches that would actually contain the musicians necessary to produce it would make that .1% difficult to actually do.
I enjoy a fair amount of classic rock, metal, and so on. But I can't sing it, which for me means it's not useful for worship. And the challenge for Christian rock / metal is that it has to be both good musically and theologically sound for me to want to listen to it.
So that rules 99.9% of it out then ...
And the number of churches that would actually contain the musicians necessary to produce it would make that .1% difficult to actually do.
And not just musicians either. @Leorning Cniht mentioned theological soundness too as part of the criteria.
The chances of any of these churches having singer-songwriters with the musical ability to play decent rock (of whatever genre) combined with lyrical and theological 'soundness' is very remote indeed.
On a tangent, I've not heard any but have heard that there are Orthodox metal bands in Eastern Europe. They wouldn't play in services of course. I have no idea what they sing about but I'd fear the worst ... I have no evidence for this but fear Christian nationalism of Polish, Hungarian or Patriarch Kyrill style or the 'Orthodoxy or Death' of nasty biker groups.
Yikes!
Anyhow, back to our own back yard ... I've had friends who are very knowledgeable about the CCM (Contemporary Christian Music) scene and whilst there are undoubtedly talented artists out there in a range of genres my impression is that little of it adds up to much.
Yes, and like Frost's 'The Road Less Travelled', "That has made all the difference."
CCM and hymnody are not The Same ThingTM.
Besides, and with all due respect to metal heads, I can't imagine the Ship's Nick composing rock or heavy metal ditties.
That's not to knock rock or heavy metal of course.
On CCM, I'm afraid that my view of it is that apart from Gospel music, most of it is a pale shadow of its secular equivalent.
Why listen to 'Christian' heavy metal or rap or whatever else when the secular equivalents are so much better - if one is that way inclined?
I s'pose the Christian versions tend to have more wholesome Mom and Apple Pie lyrics but even so ...
I'm not up on CCM. It never did anything for me. I remember there was a Christian metal band called 'Stryper' at one time, if memory serves. Not sure if they were good, bad or indifferent.
When it comes to rock my tastes incline away from metal but I'd give KarlLB's 'Holy Trinity' some credit even though I wouldn't go out of my way to listen to them. Some good tracks, mind.
Question: Your hymns. How would you classify them? Do they address current issues?
Aaaarrgh!
Call me old-fashioned but in my experience most hymns that address 'current issues' fail abysmally.
It grieves me that the Methodists, for instance, appear to be abandoning their rich Wesleyan hymnody for well-meaning hand-wringing ditties that don't scan apologising to the Almighty for being middle-class and privileged or not helping asylum seekers or taking climate change seriously enough.
Yes, we should be doing all those things but if we are going to sing about them at least we should write some decent material.
Question: Your hymns. How would you classify them? Do they address current issues?
Hmmmm. I’d say I rarely if ever set out to write a hymn addressing a specific issue. I tend to think such hymns usually don’t work well, and can too often come across as preachy or pedantic. They can also become dated really fast. I often write hymns for specific occasions or purposes, and of course I keep those occasions in mind when I write. And I look for fresh ways of expressing things, or maybe fresh angles.
If there’s a constant, it’s probably that I tend to fill texts with scriptural, and possibly other, allusions. (I do wonder if I’m the only one who has written a hymn drawing on the Westminster catechism, or a choral piece drawing on the motto attributed to Calvin.) And, of course, I try to write tunes to be both singable and interesting. How successful I am at that, I’ll not try to say.
At the risk of starting yet another 'worship wars' thread, you've both got me wondering how contemporary hymnody can avoid a kind of preachy and pedantic 'political correctness' (for want ofva better term) on the one hand and the pietistic 'ooh ooh Jesus, ooh ooh Jesus, Jesus, ooh ooh Jesus, ooh ooh we love you Jesus, Jesus, Jesus ...' style excesses on the other.
Surely it is not beyond the wit of humankind to write something that is both singable and meaningful in a contemporary idiom. I am sure there must be examples out there.
Comments
what do the terms mean ? (Sorry for my ignorance, I have tried to look it up but got nowhere)
But there is variation between churches, obviously.
But yes, pretty much as @Heavenlyannie describes aand indeed there are significant sub-divisions within both conservative evangelical and charismatic evangelical churches as she also suggests - 'But there is variation between churches, obviously.'
Neither of these groups are monolithic.
Meanwhile, @Ex_Organist, I'm pleased to hear there's an adult catechetical group in your parish. We have Georgians and Russians too, but I'm not aware of any Ukrainians. There are quite a few Ukrainians around here but I've not seen any in church.
I know an Anglican parish in South Wales that has picked up a good number.
For various reasons formal catechesis has been pretty poor in our parish but I hope that will change over time. I do know of Orthodox parishes where there is a high standard of catechesis but these seem few and far between in my experience so far.
As for other churches, I think @Baptist Trainfan is right in his observations about non-conformist churches here in the UK. I do know of some Baptist churches that were predominantly 'young' in terms of their demographic 20 years ago or so, but which are now becoming quite portly and middle-aged. There seem to be 'trendy' or 'cool' congregations within each and every Christian tradition.
Looping back to this, I was one - at least in so far as when I was really questioning where to make my religious home I looked seriously at the Methodists as I have a load of forebears from them (though very much the Primitives).
I have read the Very Short Introduction to Methodism at least.
Even now - though clearly they’re very different - if I wasn’t a Tractarian prayer book Catholic I’d be a Methodist. Loads of time for them, and still a chapel in the next village.
Numbers are also booming amongst young children and their parents, in the 30-45 age range.
The third growth group is recent immigrants from Hong Kong, and long-term visitors from the Far East. Many of our services have partial dual language provision for Cantonese speakers.
Elderly members are fewer than a decade or two ago, probably due to changing local demographics. Retired folk tend to prefer moving out of the big city, and although the district is affluent, many of the incomers are from ethnic groups in which Christianity is rare.
Another declining group is UK students. We’re near a major University, but are not currently one of the fashionable churches amongst students of a UCCF flavour. Although we do attract a good number of international students.
We’ve seen a big decline in the 45-60 age range, which is causing funding problems. Traditionally this tends to be the demographic best placed to donate, if a married couple are both professionals at peak earning power but with no mortgage, and offspring have sprung off from the nest. Personally I attribute much of the loss to a growing ‘male headship’ culture, which I think was less prevalent in evangelicalism say a generation ago. My wife was a lone voice at a PCC meeting opposing the motion to give fealty to the Bishop of Ebbsfleet. We know of about a dozen professional women who have cited this as a factor in their decision in recent years to move to a different church after young children’s activities have become less of a priority – often taking families with them.
Another (probably related) factor is a sharp decline in women in their twenties. My estimation of our British members in that decade of life is two couples, 12 or 13 single men but at most only two single women. I’ve seen a similar pattern in other evangelical churches whilst visiting them on holiday. This is the main reason why I question the sustainability of the current male headship culture.
At this point, after a day full of crises, I'm not sure WHAT I was talking about, or anybody else. So I'm glad if it made some sense to you...
I've been trying to order my son a lava lamp for years. Sadly, they seem to be out of production.
I totally get that. As a liberal Catholic Anglican I’ve often said I’d feel more comfortable in a Methodist church than in an evangelical Anglican Church
Why is 'evo' used as a short form for 'evangelical' where does the 'o' come from ?
It may be an Oz expression: the Evangelical Union was big in the medical faculty in my youth 50 years back and I recall the enthusiasts being described as “ evos” by those of a non-Evangelical turn of mind.
I think Australian's not a bad shout - though feels like it ought to work in Liverpool - see also afternoon= arvo, Salvation Army person = Salvo/the Salvoes, etc
In fact, I think all of those are common to Strine and Scouse.
I don't think I've ever used it or 'charo' in real life as it were, in other words away from these boards.
I'd use 'evangelical' and 'charismatic.'
'Fundies' is another Ship-board phrase I've not heard elsewhere but 'Penties' for Pentecostals is quite common I've found.
An Australian derivation might be possible.
Or perhaps someone misheard the lyrics of a track by late '70s New Wave band Devo.
'Are we not men?'
'We are Devo.'
😉
I tried them a couple years ago and they canceled my order but didn’t take the advertisement down. I dunno.
I saw somewhere, possible QI, that internet encryption codes were or are partially generated by a wall of lava lamps - but I am not exactly sure how.
Apparently it's true.
Basically, representing the state of a lava lamp digitally gives you as random a number as you'll get.
Though now I'm curious about whether electrical frequency makes a difference.
That was my conclusion based on how long it take to heat up, yeah.
No - all the lamp uses electricity for is resistive heating. The source of the "randomness" is the rather sensitive fluid dynamics in the body of the lamp.
(Technically, this isn't "as random as you'll get", although it's exploiting the chaotic motion to get pretty close. You could measure something like time between radioactive decays of some radioactive sample you had lying around, and that would be fundamentally random at the level of basic physics.)
The Presbyterian Church in Australia is small, a quick Wiki search showing that just over 2% of Australians identify as Presbyterian. Most Presbyterians here joined the Uniting Church when that was founded 55 or so years ago.
For me it has little to do with age; musically my tastes are very much towards rock and folk-rock, but I avoid churches that use that genre for reasons of theology and personal baggage.
I'm not convinced that "mature citizens" are actually turned off by rock music per se - the age of many of the classic rock bands would indicate otherwise - Deep Purple, Led Zep, Black Sabbath (aka the Holy Trinity) date from the early 70s and the classic metal bands - Heart, Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, Fleetwood Mac, aren't much younger. I could point to the vintage of Fairport Convention and Jethro Tull as further data points. They and their original fans are all 'mature citizens'.
Nor Jethro Tull or Fairport Convention for that matter, but I presume you are referring to folk rock there. I know I've teased you about Tull before but 'Songs from the Wood' and 'Minstrel in the Gallery' are good albums in the folk-rock idiom, I think.
At any rate, your point is well made. Old rockers are ... old rockers ...
Heck, we don't have to go as far back as the '70s. I saw Orchestral Manouevres ... on 'Later with Jools Holland' the other week and they looked - and sounded - positively ancient. Even 90s indie bands are old.
I'm not convinced that musical taste is the key criteria. As you say, your own tastes incline towards metal and folk rock yet you'd run a mile from rocky style churches for theological reasons.
Some of the Eastern European kids on our parish listen to Death Metal and Industrial Metal and so on but they don't object to boring old Byzantine chant in church.
So that rules 99.9% of it out then ...
Lots of college kids today. I think that was because this is the start of Dead Week.
And the number of churches that would actually contain the musicians necessary to produce it would make that .1% difficult to actually do.
And not just musicians either. @Leorning Cniht mentioned theological soundness too as part of the criteria.
The chances of any of these churches having singer-songwriters with the musical ability to play decent rock (of whatever genre) combined with lyrical and theological 'soundness' is very remote indeed.
On a tangent, I've not heard any but have heard that there are Orthodox metal bands in Eastern Europe. They wouldn't play in services of course. I have no idea what they sing about but I'd fear the worst ... I have no evidence for this but fear Christian nationalism of Polish, Hungarian or Patriarch Kyrill style or the 'Orthodoxy or Death' of nasty biker groups.
Yikes!
Anyhow, back to our own back yard ... I've had friends who are very knowledgeable about the CCM (Contemporary Christian Music) scene and whilst there are undoubtedly talented artists out there in a range of genres my impression is that little of it adds up to much.
I think Nick is known to write CCM pieces.
Old Nick?
British readers may get the reference.
Scandinavians seem fond of heavy metal for some reason. Perhaps not getting enough sunshine has something to do with it.
<grins>
@Nick Tamen
CCM and hymnody are not The Same ThingTM.
Besides, and with all due respect to metal heads, I can't imagine the Ship's Nick composing rock or heavy metal ditties.
That's not to knock rock or heavy metal of course.
On CCM, I'm afraid that my view of it is that apart from Gospel music, most of it is a pale shadow of its secular equivalent.
Why listen to 'Christian' heavy metal or rap or whatever else when the secular equivalents are so much better - if one is that way inclined?
I s'pose the Christian versions tend to have more wholesome Mom and Apple Pie lyrics but even so ...
I'm not up on CCM. It never did anything for me. I remember there was a Christian metal band called 'Stryper' at one time, if memory serves. Not sure if they were good, bad or indifferent.
When it comes to rock my tastes incline away from metal but I'd give KarlLB's 'Holy Trinity' some credit even though I wouldn't go out of my way to listen to them. Some good tracks, mind.
But CCM?
Nah ...
Thank you for the correction.
Question: Your hymns. How would you classify them? Do they address current issues?
Aaaarrgh!
Call me old-fashioned but in my experience most hymns that address 'current issues' fail abysmally.
It grieves me that the Methodists, for instance, appear to be abandoning their rich Wesleyan hymnody for well-meaning hand-wringing ditties that don't scan apologising to the Almighty for being middle-class and privileged or not helping asylum seekers or taking climate change seriously enough.
Yes, we should be doing all those things but if we are going to sing about them at least we should write some decent material.
If there’s a constant, it’s probably that I tend to fill texts with scriptural, and possibly other, allusions. (I do wonder if I’m the only one who has written a hymn drawing on the Westminster catechism, or a choral piece drawing on the motto attributed to Calvin.) And, of course, I try to write tunes to be both singable and interesting. How successful I am at that, I’ll not try to say.
Well, you never can be really sure, can you.
Surely it is not beyond the wit of humankind to write something that is both singable and meaningful in a contemporary idiom. I am sure there must be examples out there.