If you are on Facebook, you’ll see an awful lot of apparently non-church folk post about their dead relatives being in heaven, looking down on them from heaven etc etc. Exactly what kind of metaphysical belief that represents is unclear. You’ll also see a lot of memes about how love and relationships are more important than material things.
I'm not sure these things necessarily cohere; there's also lots of commentary about children / particular beloved celebrities becoming angels and so on. I think what we have in much of the West is the residue of belief in terms of vocabulary and so on without much understanding of the structure of things (syntax rather than semantics if you will).
I grew up in a family in which my father did not go to church, having been put off as a boy. My mother was an intermittent attender - I was baptised, had a children's Bible and later a KJ Bible, and Mum took us to carol services etc but church did not feature heavily in my childhood.
When I was 15, I was startled when my mother told me that she had spoken to our church elder about me joining the church, and they had arranged between them that I would start first communicant classes. I refused. I said that I would not make my Profession of Faith until I was sure that I believed. My mother thought this ridiculous and said that no-one had cared whether she believed when she joined the church. She had joined because that's what respectable young women did at that age. Our church elder pointed out that if I joined the church at 16, I'd have the right to a church wedding "in the bag" as it were, but if I delayed, I'd have to go to church and join later to get a church wedding.
When I did join, of my own volition, two years later, one of the others joining was doing so to get a church wedding, and confided in me that she had no intention of going after her wedding.
When I think about the decreasing interest of young people in the church, I wonder if "lack of interest" isn't actually better than young people joining unthinkingly as a right of passage, or because they have visions of a white church wedding, and needed to tick the boxes to achieve that goal.
Neither of my children is a church member. My son baulks at the public aspect of it. My daughter baulks at the "I believe in the resurrection of the body" bit. She does go to church - she was the youngest member of the congregation on Sunday by a good ten years. As an active member of the congregation, she had a church wedding; there was no suggestion she needed to formally join. I'm fairly sure, though, that even if she didn't attend, she could have had a church wedding. The days of If you don't join the church you'll have to have a registry office wedding as a threat to get young women into the church are long gone.
But why should young people express their belief in that particular way, especially if all the others present are a bunch of old buffers?
Indeed.
... Which brings us back to the simple reality that if you want fuller churches, you need more people who believe (or at least who want to believe) in church stuff.
Ah - you took a route to that conclusion that hadn't occurred to me. I had completely forgotten about the sin->death->hell bit. (Can't think why.)
The answer to your question about being "less existential" is "partly".
I also had in mind the tangible meaning for people who live with religious intolerance, but your reading is more relevant to this thread, in the sense that what we believe can be vitally important to us. And that it isn't just what we might believe about salvation, it's also any belief that is about "who we are", as demonstrated by how unsettling it is when those beliefs get called into question - and, as you say, these aren't generally beliefs we choose freely.
As for my first question above, I really don't think it matters at all if young people don't attend church. But I do still think that church community matters.
The church has traditionally been remarkably effective at sustaining community. And, for the most part, that has depended on "aligning" our beliefs with the church. One point I've been trying to get across is that it's this bit that has broken down, and that it appears to be irreparable. So rather than trying to "reanimate" people's need or desire for this kind of belief, it would be better to try different approaches.
One way would be to focus less on how to sustain the beliefs, and more on how to sustain the community.
Another way would be to accept that newer generations have beliefs that are just as vitally important to them, even if they look different and are expressed differently. (Even better, to understand what those beliefs are, which involves understanding the narratives.)
You can see evidence of these and other approaches in some of the posts on this thread. But there remains a widespread ongoing expectation (in the churches with which I'm familiar) that all these "irregular" expressions of church should lead to regular church attendance. Which is continually disappointed.
I don't see the point in maintaining a faith based community without the faith commonality. If church has been effective at sustaining community, might that be because its members have a shared core of belief? If I may suggest an illustration - have you ever been in the position of having a broken down vehicle? Suddenly, what was a powerful, well, vehicle, for moving around becomes a huge great lump of metal that is actually stopping you from moving around because you've got to hang around with it until it's recovered and if you do have to move it off the place it's broken down, it's incredibly heavy and resistant to being moved. It's a remarkable transformation. Without shared belief and faith, are our churches like broken down cars? Unable to get them started again, people are walking away, but they're finding they quite like the walk and didn't really need the car in the first place.
Other communities can and do arise. Mrs KarlLB is involved with a group which arranges the village fete and Christmas fair each year. I attend a tabletop gaming group and also a regularly scheduled open mike night where there is a solid core of regulars. We share commonalities - a love of gaming in the one case and a love of music and awareness of what it's like standing up on your own and performing. Unfortunately the new communities are frequently less geographically based and attract a smaller proportion of the population than parish churches did in their heyday.
I grew up in a family in which my father did not go to church, having been put off as a boy. My mother was an intermittent attender - I was baptised, had a children's Bible and later a KJ Bible, and Mum took us to carol services etc but church did not feature heavily in my childhood.
When I was 15, I was startled when my mother told me that she had spoken to our church elder about me joining the church, and they had arranged between them that I would start first communicant classes. I refused. I said that I would not make my Profession of Faith until I was sure that I believed. My mother thought this ridiculous and said that no-one had cared whether she believed when she joined the church. She had joined because that's what respectable young women did at that age. Our church elder pointed out that if I joined the church at 16, I'd have the right to a church wedding "in the bag" as it were, but if I delayed, I'd have to go to church and join later to get a church wedding.
When I did join, of my own volition, two years later, one of the others joining was doing so to get a church wedding, and confided in me that she had no intention of going after her wedding.
When I think about the decreasing interest of young people in the church, I wonder if "lack of interest" isn't actually better than young people joining unthinkingly as a right of passage, or because they have visions of a white church wedding, and needed to tick the boxes to achieve that goal.
Neither of my children is a church member. My son baulks at the public aspect of it. My daughter baulks at the "I believe in the resurrection of the body" bit. She does go to church - she was the youngest member of the congregation on Sunday by a good ten years. As an active member of the congregation, she had a church wedding; there was no suggestion she needed to formally join. I'm fairly sure, though, that even if she didn't attend, she could have had a church wedding. The days of If you don't join the church you'll have to have a registry office wedding as a threat to get young women into the church are long gone.
We didn't go to church as children. This was because my mother was unwilling to subject us to the tedium that she'd suffered as a child.
I think there's something in that. I know I've mentioned this before, but does anyone else find church tends towards the tedious?
Not that I think that's the main issue, but I wonder if we've got a situation where a lot of people, even if they are interested in spiritual matters, would avoid church because of the image it has of being - not the most scintillating way to spend an hour.
If you are on Facebook, you’ll see an awful lot of apparently non-church folk post about their dead relatives being in heaven, looking down on them from heaven etc etc. Exactly what kind of metaphysical belief that represents is unclear. You’ll also see a lot of memes about how love and relationships are more important than material things.
Is that anything more than wishful thinking? If that.
If you are on Facebook, you’ll see an awful lot of apparently non-church folk post about their dead relatives being in heaven, looking down on them from heaven etc etc. Exactly what kind of metaphysical belief that represents is unclear. You’ll also see a lot of memes about how love and relationships are more important than material things.
Is that anything more than wishful thinking? If that.
To be fair, there are many that ask that of religion in general.
I don't see the point in maintaining a faith based community without the faith commonality.
I know you don't (and I suspect many of the people here would say the same). But if it's not sustaining community, why would you want to keep it going?
If church has been effective at sustaining community, might that be because its members have a shared core of belief?
I'd say that's true, on some level, of all communities. It's the nature of the belief that varies.
The question I'm still asking is why do these particular beliefs matter. (To be fair, this isn't a particularly easy question to answer.)
Other communities can and do arise. Mrs KarlLB is involved with a group which arranges the village fete and Christmas fair each year. I attend a tabletop gaming group and also a regularly scheduled open mike night where there is a solid core of regulars. We share commonalities - a love of gaming in the one case and a love of music and awareness of what it's like standing up on your own and performing. Unfortunately the new communities are frequently less geographically based and attract a smaller proportion of the population than parish churches did in their heyday.
Part of my premise is that the church is actually quite well-placed to sustain these kinds of communities, it just doesn't see the relevance to what it considers to be its purpose.
If you are on Facebook, you’ll see an awful lot of apparently non-church folk post about their dead relatives being in heaven, looking down on them from heaven etc etc. Exactly what kind of metaphysical belief that represents is unclear. You’ll also see a lot of memes about how love and relationships are more important than material things.
Is that anything more than wishful thinking? If that.
To be fair, there are many that ask that of religion in general.
I was asking myself that as I typed. Is the theological virtue "hope" just wishful thinking in a party dress?
If you are on Facebook, you’ll see an awful lot of apparently non-church folk post about their dead relatives being in heaven, looking down on them from heaven etc etc. Exactly what kind of metaphysical belief that represents is unclear. You’ll also see a lot of memes about how love and relationships are more important than material things.
Is that anything more than wishful thinking? If that.
To be fair, there are many that ask that of religion in general.
I was asking myself that as I typed. Is the theological virtue "hope" just wishful thinking in a party dress?
If so, then the phrase "sure and certain hope" is an oxymoron.
I think theologically hope is painted as expectation rather than an uncertain aspiration.
Many of the posts here have asked about going or not going to church.
The church is a meeting place for the community and plays a vital role in community life when it is at the foreground,the centreground and the background to community life. then do those who believe,those who would like to believe as well as those who do not believe
come together in one community.
While talking about 'church' few have mentioned specifically Christian beliefs and we know that there are many different and differing faith communities which are to be found throughout the world,even amongst those who would broadly call themselves Christian.
Where the religious community is at the centre of ordinary life those who believe as well as those who might like to believe and even those who do not believe will have some part to play in the public life of the religious community. In Europe we have seen this in certain parts of Eastern Europe where the 'church' had a vital role in sustaining the local community and in maintaining the spirit of that community with the help of religion.
Religious practice in Poland went down in the interwar period when Poland had regained its independence and went up again post WW2 when the country was a satellite of the Soviet Union. It went down after the fall of the Soviet Union.
Where the majority of the community do not need the help of a religious community to maintain their identity religious practice will often go down only to those who have for some reason a firm belief and a sure and certain hope for the future.
We didn't go to church as children. This was because my mother was unwilling to subject us to the tedium that she'd suffered as a child.
I think there's something in that. I know I've mentioned this before, but does anyone else find church tends towards the tedious?
Not that I think that's the main issue, but I wonder if we've got a situation where a lot of people, even if they are interested in spiritual matters, would avoid church because of the image it has of being - not the most scintillating way to spend an hour.
This may be a large part of it. I grew up in a family where both parents went to church as kids. One Episcopalian, one Presbyterian (both Scottish varieties thereof). I don't think I've ever seen Dad in a church except for weddings, funerals or concerts! Mum took us to the nearest C of E place for a bit, and I have a Bible presented for good attendance at that Sunday School when I was 8. I stopped attending soon after that as I was bored - they'd moved me up to the older group, it may have been meant to be preparation for confirmation or something, but I wasn't interested enough to stick around.
I started ringing at one of the other local churches a couple of years later, and I'm probably in a church more regularly than a lot of people. But I don't stick around for the service.
@KarlLB and @Celtic Knotweed - sure, I can relate to this.
I dropped out of attending church when they began confirmation classes, mainly because I was shy and the idea of doing something 'public' didn't appeal. Besides, as a kid I found church services boring - and confession time- I still do.
The Orthodox Liturgy is gradually growing on me but I can't pretend it's 'exciting' in the conventional sense and when I hear 'Let us complete our prayers to the Lord' I know there's about another half hour to go and then the post-eucharistic prayers after that...
😉
I attended a lovely RC Mass in an ancient abbey in France back in September. I remember thinking, 'Heck, why can't we do this as concisely as these people do?'
There was a choir of nuns and it wasn't sped through in a perfunctory way. I found it very uplifting.
I do get a sense of the numinous and transcendent in Orthodox services at times but generally it feels like hard work - which is part of the point, I think.
I don't go to church to be 'entertained', but quite understand how and why it can feel so tedious.
Thing is, though, I know plenty of people who have become bored or jaded with ostensibly more 'vibrant' and 'exciting' forms of worship. Even the most free-wheeling and apparently spontaneous forms of worship become routinised over time.
I've no idea what the answer is or indeed if there is one. I don't like gardening or housework but it has to be done.
I can't speak for anyone else but whilst I currently can't get to church that often due to caring commitments, it part of a continuum that includes attempts to follow a daily office and seasonal round of liturgical themes.
Excitement isn't the aim - 'Geezers need excitement' as The Streets put it - but an attempt to immerse oneself in the life of Christ surely is - and yes, there's far more to that than church attendance of course.
I seem to recall a concept , about 15 years ago? of Belonging before Believing.
A church I attended for a couple of years ( I wish I had discovered it earlier) was very much a “Belonging” church. Maybe it helped that it was held in a former junior school building. It had community groups for all ages, provided hot meals, singing groups, craft groups, summer fetes etc and, every year, a Pantomime. Lots of ways to belong and be part of a community.
Posted too soon.
On its website it states “ We are a church that puts the local community at the centre of its thoughts. We believe it is vital that everyone connected to us feels part of something truly special; our church is a place they can always be themselves, allowing their faith to flourish and help others within this unique parish.
This ‘ everyone counts’ mentality allows for an inclusive feel at every level, from those faces we see regularly to those who dip in and out of our lives when they need support most.”
If you are on Facebook, you’ll see an awful lot of apparently non-church folk post about their dead relatives being in heaven, looking down on them from heaven etc etc. Exactly what kind of metaphysical belief that represents is unclear. You’ll also see a lot of memes about how love and relationships are more important than material things.
Is that anything more than wishful thinking? If that.
People do believe it, and it is important to them - so I think it is something more than wishful thinking.
Regards the Polish experience. The same also happened in East German. Attendance among young people was way up. Once the wall fell and the East German government collapsed, young adult attendance went way down.
Seems when the church is in opposition to a repressive government, it has countercultural appeal. But when the church is seen as supporting the government there is little interest.
Human nature is dishonest, which therefore has great survival value.
And 'real' faith is as really dishonest as 'unreal'.
Fear and shame are the basis of believing.
My halls are full of rich African and Indian conservative Christian groups. Four in the last 2 days. Overlapping. The new blood in the church itself is overwhelmingly conservative African and conservative Asian. It's a developmental, socio-economic phenomenon. The dominant culture will dissolve it of course. It's not generationally sustainable. Although relentless immigration, without which the West cannot survive, will constantly inoculate the melting pot.
One thing I like about my congregation is that we are very welcoming of young newcomers. Over the past few months a teenage boy from the community started dating a teenage girl from our congregation. Today, as part of our chili cook off, we crown three kings for the new year. He was one of them. Then a girl about eight also became royalty, and a young Tanzanian man who is on a Fullbright became king too.
For the first time in years, I am currently attending a church (CofS) with young families and children... ok only 2 regular families, but out of an average Sunday attendance of about 30-40 people, that's not bad! In my previous 2 churches, I'd got used (in my early 60s) to being one of the youngest there!
The Baptist church across the road now has more members in old folks homes or housebound in their own home than are able to attend church, and I don't think has anyone under 55 - although the minister is very active in visiting and ministering to younger folk in the local community, and is generally held in very high esteem.
Comments
I'm not sure these things necessarily cohere; there's also lots of commentary about children / particular beloved celebrities becoming angels and so on. I think what we have in much of the West is the residue of belief in terms of vocabulary and so on without much understanding of the structure of things (syntax rather than semantics if you will).
When I was 15, I was startled when my mother told me that she had spoken to our church elder about me joining the church, and they had arranged between them that I would start first communicant classes. I refused. I said that I would not make my Profession of Faith until I was sure that I believed. My mother thought this ridiculous and said that no-one had cared whether she believed when she joined the church. She had joined because that's what respectable young women did at that age. Our church elder pointed out that if I joined the church at 16, I'd have the right to a church wedding "in the bag" as it were, but if I delayed, I'd have to go to church and join later to get a church wedding.
When I did join, of my own volition, two years later, one of the others joining was doing so to get a church wedding, and confided in me that she had no intention of going after her wedding.
When I think about the decreasing interest of young people in the church, I wonder if "lack of interest" isn't actually better than young people joining unthinkingly as a right of passage, or because they have visions of a white church wedding, and needed to tick the boxes to achieve that goal.
Neither of my children is a church member. My son baulks at the public aspect of it. My daughter baulks at the "I believe in the resurrection of the body" bit. She does go to church - she was the youngest member of the congregation on Sunday by a good ten years. As an active member of the congregation, she had a church wedding; there was no suggestion she needed to formally join. I'm fairly sure, though, that even if she didn't attend, she could have had a church wedding. The days of If you don't join the church you'll have to have a registry office wedding as a threat to get young women into the church are long gone.
Ah - you took a route to that conclusion that hadn't occurred to me. I had completely forgotten about the sin->death->hell bit. (Can't think why.)
The answer to your question about being "less existential" is "partly".
I also had in mind the tangible meaning for people who live with religious intolerance, but your reading is more relevant to this thread, in the sense that what we believe can be vitally important to us. And that it isn't just what we might believe about salvation, it's also any belief that is about "who we are", as demonstrated by how unsettling it is when those beliefs get called into question - and, as you say, these aren't generally beliefs we choose freely.
As for my first question above, I really don't think it matters at all if young people don't attend church. But I do still think that church community matters.
The church has traditionally been remarkably effective at sustaining community. And, for the most part, that has depended on "aligning" our beliefs with the church. One point I've been trying to get across is that it's this bit that has broken down, and that it appears to be irreparable. So rather than trying to "reanimate" people's need or desire for this kind of belief, it would be better to try different approaches.
One way would be to focus less on how to sustain the beliefs, and more on how to sustain the community.
Another way would be to accept that newer generations have beliefs that are just as vitally important to them, even if they look different and are expressed differently. (Even better, to understand what those beliefs are, which involves understanding the narratives.)
You can see evidence of these and other approaches in some of the posts on this thread. But there remains a widespread ongoing expectation (in the churches with which I'm familiar) that all these "irregular" expressions of church should lead to regular church attendance. Which is continually disappointed.
Other communities can and do arise. Mrs KarlLB is involved with a group which arranges the village fete and Christmas fair each year. I attend a tabletop gaming group and also a regularly scheduled open mike night where there is a solid core of regulars. We share commonalities - a love of gaming in the one case and a love of music and awareness of what it's like standing up on your own and performing. Unfortunately the new communities are frequently less geographically based and attract a smaller proportion of the population than parish churches did in their heyday.
We didn't go to church as children. This was because my mother was unwilling to subject us to the tedium that she'd suffered as a child.
I think there's something in that. I know I've mentioned this before, but does anyone else find church tends towards the tedious?
Not that I think that's the main issue, but I wonder if we've got a situation where a lot of people, even if they are interested in spiritual matters, would avoid church because of the image it has of being - not the most scintillating way to spend an hour.
Is that anything more than wishful thinking? If that.
To be fair, there are many that ask that of religion in general.
I'd say that's true, on some level, of all communities. It's the nature of the belief that varies.
The question I'm still asking is why do these particular beliefs matter. (To be fair, this isn't a particularly easy question to answer.)
Part of my premise is that the church is actually quite well-placed to sustain these kinds of communities, it just doesn't see the relevance to what it considers to be its purpose.
I was asking myself that as I typed. Is the theological virtue "hope" just wishful thinking in a party dress?
If so, then the phrase "sure and certain hope" is an oxymoron.
I think theologically hope is painted as expectation rather than an uncertain aspiration.
The church is a meeting place for the community and plays a vital role in community life when it is at the foreground,the centreground and the background to community life. then do those who believe,those who would like to believe as well as those who do not believe
come together in one community.
While talking about 'church' few have mentioned specifically Christian beliefs and we know that there are many different and differing faith communities which are to be found throughout the world,even amongst those who would broadly call themselves Christian.
Where the religious community is at the centre of ordinary life those who believe as well as those who might like to believe and even those who do not believe will have some part to play in the public life of the religious community. In Europe we have seen this in certain parts of Eastern Europe where the 'church' had a vital role in sustaining the local community and in maintaining the spirit of that community with the help of religion.
Religious practice in Poland went down in the interwar period when Poland had regained its independence and went up again post WW2 when the country was a satellite of the Soviet Union. It went down after the fall of the Soviet Union.
Where the majority of the community do not need the help of a religious community to maintain their identity religious practice will often go down only to those who have for some reason a firm belief and a sure and certain hope for the future.
This may be a large part of it. I grew up in a family where both parents went to church as kids. One Episcopalian, one Presbyterian (both Scottish varieties thereof). I don't think I've ever seen Dad in a church except for weddings, funerals or concerts! Mum took us to the nearest C of E place for a bit, and I have a Bible presented for good attendance at that Sunday School when I was 8. I stopped attending soon after that as I was bored - they'd moved me up to the older group, it may have been meant to be preparation for confirmation or something, but I wasn't interested enough to stick around.
I started ringing at one of the other local churches a couple of years later, and I'm probably in a church more regularly than a lot of people. But I don't stick around for the service.
I dropped out of attending church when they began confirmation classes, mainly because I was shy and the idea of doing something 'public' didn't appeal. Besides, as a kid I found church services boring - and confession time- I still do.
The Orthodox Liturgy is gradually growing on me but I can't pretend it's 'exciting' in the conventional sense and when I hear 'Let us complete our prayers to the Lord' I know there's about another half hour to go and then the post-eucharistic prayers after that...
😉
I attended a lovely RC Mass in an ancient abbey in France back in September. I remember thinking, 'Heck, why can't we do this as concisely as these people do?'
There was a choir of nuns and it wasn't sped through in a perfunctory way. I found it very uplifting.
I do get a sense of the numinous and transcendent in Orthodox services at times but generally it feels like hard work - which is part of the point, I think.
I don't go to church to be 'entertained', but quite understand how and why it can feel so tedious.
Thing is, though, I know plenty of people who have become bored or jaded with ostensibly more 'vibrant' and 'exciting' forms of worship. Even the most free-wheeling and apparently spontaneous forms of worship become routinised over time.
I've no idea what the answer is or indeed if there is one. I don't like gardening or housework but it has to be done.
I can't speak for anyone else but whilst I currently can't get to church that often due to caring commitments, it part of a continuum that includes attempts to follow a daily office and seasonal round of liturgical themes.
Excitement isn't the aim - 'Geezers need excitement' as The Streets put it - but an attempt to immerse oneself in the life of Christ surely is - and yes, there's far more to that than church attendance of course.
A church I attended for a couple of years ( I wish I had discovered it earlier) was very much a “Belonging” church. Maybe it helped that it was held in a former junior school building. It had community groups for all ages, provided hot meals, singing groups, craft groups, summer fetes etc and, every year, a Pantomime. Lots of ways to belong and be part of a community.
On its website it states “ We are a church that puts the local community at the centre of its thoughts. We believe it is vital that everyone connected to us feels part of something truly special; our church is a place they can always be themselves, allowing their faith to flourish and help others within this unique parish.
This ‘ everyone counts’ mentality allows for an inclusive feel at every level, from those faces we see regularly to those who dip in and out of our lives when they need support most.”
People do believe it, and it is important to them - so I think it is something more than wishful thinking.
Seems when the church is in opposition to a repressive government, it has countercultural appeal. But when the church is seen as supporting the government there is little interest.
And 'real' faith is as really dishonest as 'unreal'.
Fear and shame are the basis of believing.
My halls are full of rich African and Indian conservative Christian groups. Four in the last 2 days. Overlapping. The new blood in the church itself is overwhelmingly conservative African and conservative Asian. It's a developmental, socio-economic phenomenon. The dominant culture will dissolve it of course. It's not generationally sustainable. Although relentless immigration, without which the West cannot survive, will constantly inoculate the melting pot.
And rationality is the best remedy, yes.
The Baptist church across the road now has more members in old folks homes or housebound in their own home than are able to attend church, and I don't think has anyone under 55 - although the minister is very active in visiting and ministering to younger folk in the local community, and is generally held in very high esteem.