Forgive me all, but I must vent. A minor rant but it's been bugging me.
TICTH modern trends in beer brewing.
I had never, not in my worst nightmares, not since CAMRA saved us from Whitbread Trophy and Watney's Red Barrel, dreamt that a situation could arise where I could walk into a pub with a dozen handpulls and be stuck for something I wanted to drink. The problem would normally be prioritisation after negotiation with my liver.
It has happened.
Every damned pump at the place - proper hand pumps; this isn't a lack of cask ale problem - carried lager-pale ale which loudly proclaimed the (far too many) hop varieties involved in its manufacture.
They all tasted either of that stuff your mum put on your hands to stop you biting your nails, or grapefruit pith, or Fosters drunk through a lemon wet-wipe.*/**
What happened to malt heavy best bitters, bready and biscuity in the body, with just enough hop bitterness to ofset the residual non-fermentable sugars, imparting a subtle floral or grassy note as they did so? They are still produced, but the pubs aren't putting them on.
I know where this has come from. Excited by hipster craft keg beers, cask brewers have started using the same ideas for their cask offerings. Fine, if they must, but it's pushed the styles I like completely out of the door.
I feel strangely bereaved; sitting in a real ale pub and for the first time in 40 years of beer drinking feeling out of place
*They did have some draught Bass. This is a bit like running a restaurant that prides itself on the quality of its food, but on finding some people don't like beef putting on an option of frozen chicken nuggets.***
**To be fair, they did have an oatmeal stout. That should have been an oasis for me but it wasn't. It tasted like porridge.
***OK, John Smiths Smooth would have been even (actually quite a lot) worse, but you get the picture.
Forgive me all, but I must vent. A minor rant but it's been bugging me.
TICTH modern trends in beer brewing.
I had never, not in my worst nightmares, not since CAMRA saved us from Whitbread Trophy and Watney's Red Barrel, dreamt that a situation could arise where I could walk into a pub with a dozen handpulls and be stuck for something I wanted to drink. The problem would normally be prioritisation after negotiation with my liver.
It has happened.
Every damned pump at the place - proper hand pumps; this isn't a lack of cask ale problem - carried lager-pale ale which loudly proclaimed the (far too many) hop varieties involved in its manufacture.
They all tasted either of that stuff your mum put on your hands to stop you biting your nails, or grapefruit pith, or Fosters drunk through a lemon wet-wipe.*/**
What happened to malt heavy best bitters, bready and biscuity in the body, with just enough hop bitterness to ofset the residual non-fermentable sugars, imparting a subtle floral or grassy note as they did so? They are still produced, but the pubs aren't putting them on.
I know where this has come from. Excited by hipster craft keg beers, cask brewers have started using the same ideas for their cask offerings. Fine, if they must, but it's pushed the styles I like completely out of the door.
I feel strangely bereaved; sitting in a real ale pub and for the first time in 40 years of beer drinking feeling out of place
*They did have some draught Bass. This is a bit like running a restaurant that prides itself on the quality of its food, but on finding some people don't like beef putting on an option of frozen chicken nuggets.***
**To be fair, they did have an oatmeal stout. That should have been an oasis for me but it wasn't. It tasted like porridge.
***OK, John Smiths Smooth would have been even (actually quite a lot) worse, but you get the picture.
I sympathise, although I have to admit to preferring Furrin Beer, notably from Poland, Italy, or Czechia...
I'm not really into Real Ale, but will happily sample any particular brand recommended to me by someone who is in the know.
🍻
I visited a brewery in Dorset a few years ago and the guide said the move to more citrusy ales was due to an increasing trend towards female ale drinkers who preferred the taste of citrus hops.
I love a citrusy IPA. I find malty bitters too sweet.
I visited a brewery in Dorset a few years ago and the guide said the move to more citrusy ales was due to an increasing trend towards female ale drinkers who preferred the taste of citrus hops.
I love a citrusy IPA. I find malty bitters too sweet.
I don't think I've ever had a bitter that I would describe as at all sweet. Some porters and milds yes, but bitters never taste sweet to me. I've always assumed the residual sugars are cancelled out by the hops because I can't taste them.
I'm thinking about this and actually there are quite a few things people say are sweet and I can't detect sweetness them - tomatoes, ketchup, brown sauce. I assumed when people referred to some meats as "sweet" they were speaking figuratively in some way but perhaps not.
Funny thing is, as soon as there is any sweetness I can detect - e.g. apple sauce on pork, apricots in tagine, pineapple on gammon (or God forfend pizza) then I really hate it.
Not that this helps me find something that tastes even a bit like Theakstons XB (my all time favourite beer) in the vast majority of real ale pubs. I'd settle for Charles Wells Eagle Bitter from 1989 at this stage...
Yes, I've noticed that it is hard to get anything that isn't pale and citrusy too. As I like my beer as dark as it can get, that's a bit of a bugger.
I guess it's one of those cyclical things. I remember Dad giving me a bottle of Tolly Cobbold Nut Brown Ale - Tolly long gone, sadly - with a cry of "beer like it used to be". It was gorgeous, many but with a sharp tang rather like a fresh hazelnut, the first time I understood references to nuttiness in beer. Just hope I'm still around to drink beer when it has passed by.
@Sandemaniac Just finished a barrel of homebrew. Old Conkerwood Black Ale I think the kit was called. Sort of a Winter Warmer dark Portery sort of thing. Even I can detect some sweetness tbere through my cheap curry ruined taste buds.
I think you'd have liked it.
Mrs T prefers more standard bitters so that's what's in the fermenting bin now. Needs dry hopping (Fuggles, none of your C-hops here) tomorrow.
I was trying to work out which of the many policies I objected to most.
The current Government is a coalition between National (historic Tory Party), Act (Libertarian) and NZ First (Populist has had some links with UKIP though I'm not sure how strong they were). Act want to re-write The Treaty of Waitangi, New Zealand's founding document, which is a treaty between Maori and the Crown. I am currently reading a book about the history of the Treaty which acknowledges Maori as the first people (tangata whenua)
Te Pati Maori (with a macron over both the letter a) ]list some of the points I am in agreement with;
Disestablishing the Maori Health Authority (Maori die on average 7 years earlier than Pakeha (NZers with a European heritage), and like indigenous people in other countries, are more likely to underachieve at school, be in low wage jobs, become incarcerated and live in poverty.
The coalition want to roll back smoke free legislation to fund tax cuts promised by National (who originally proposed to fund them by flogging off property to rich people from overseas, except NZ First objected). This will impact more heavily on Maori, and will benefit most those in high paying jobs.
Act want to re-write The Treaty, even the Prime Minister National)agrees this would be divisive,(though he;s willing to give limited support while activists say it will lead to blood on the streets.
The coalition also want to repeal legislation limiting speed in some high accident areas. Between that and the repeal of the anti-smoking legislation they are hardly life affirming.
In addition I think they are more likely to allow off shore drilling for oil again. And I read in the paper today that some electric vehicles my be charged more in road user charges than some diesel.
I am not sure where I stand on lowering the voting age, but I would have welcomed a discussion on it.
I'm also female and prefer stout to beer that tastes of grapefruit juice. Luckily there are some good local breweries that produce a broad range of beers.
I was trying to work out which of the many policies I objected to most.
The current Government is a coalition between National (historic Tory Party), Act (Libertarian) and NZ First (Populist has had some links with UKIP though I'm not sure how strong they were). Act want to re-write The Treaty of Waitangi, New Zealand's founding document, which is a treaty between Maori and the Crown. I am currently reading a book about the history of the Treaty which acknowledges Maori as the first people (tangata whenua)
Te Pati Maori (with a macron over both the letter a) ]list some of the points I am in agreement with;
Disestablishing the Maori Health Authority (Maori die on average 7 years earlier than Pakeha (NZers with a European heritage), and like indigenous people in other countries, are more likely to underachieve at school, be in low wage jobs, become incarcerated and live in poverty.
The coalition want to roll back smoke free legislation to fund tax cuts promised by National (who originally proposed to fund them by flogging off property to rich people from overseas, except NZ First objected). This will impact more heavily on Maori, and will benefit most those in high paying jobs.
Act want to re-write The Treaty, even the Prime Minister National)agrees this would be divisive,(though he;s willing to give limited support while activists say it will lead to blood on the streets.
The coalition also want to repeal legislation limiting speed in some high accident areas. Between that and the repeal of the anti-smoking legislation they are hardly life affirming.
In addition I think they are more likely to allow off shore drilling for oil again. And I read in the paper today that some electric vehicles my be charged more in road user charges than some diesel.
I am not sure where I stand on lowering the voting age, but I would have welcomed a discussion on it.
Thanks @Huia - as I said before, I'm afraid New Zealand isn't in the UK news very much these days, as our deranged and dying *government* tries desperately to transport innocent people to foreign prison camps, but the days of *Jacindamania* must seem very far away...
Many things currently grinding the gears. I think you know I keep being hit by weird "bugs" that leave me weak and wobbly for days. On top of those, work has been getting increasingly stressful, and I've been getting increasingly unable to deal with it. Add in a friends sister and an old uni colleague dying of cancer and on Friday I just collapsed in a weeping heap. I am getting professional help, got a call from a BUPA pro this afternoon, but not in a fit state to go to work right now. To top that off, the last "bug" I had I got blood tests done, as I'd had so many in quick succession, well, this morning I am told that I will be getting a call from the diabetes nurse on Friday. That's fairly startling, though it could explain the weak and wobbliness. Ah well, I guess it is what it is...
Thank you, @North East Quine . Rather needed at the mo. Usually it's impossible to get through to the surgery without finding at least one verifiable virgin and a pint of unicorn milk first, but my phone and email have been positively alive from them today. I now also have a call from my GP on Wednesday pm to add to the list (and what should be a referral for CBT via BUPA, if I read the consultation right). So much for all the years of trying to eat healthily!
IANAD, but sometimes just knowing what the problem is is the first step to dealing with it.
Very true. I am much calmer about it than I'd have ever thought. So far, anyway.
FWIW it is now known that in some circumstances you can put diabetes into remission.
One thing I found was that the year I had diabetes and didn’t yet know I was exhausted and much more emotional than usual. Getting it under control really helped with that.
IANAD, but sometimes just knowing what the problem is is the first step to dealing with it.
Very true. I am much calmer about it than I'd have ever thought. So far, anyway.
FWIW it is now known that in some circumstances you can put diabetes into remission.
One thing I found was that the year I had diabetes and didn’t yet know I was exhausted and much more emotional than usual. Getting it under control really helped with that.
Thanks, @Doublethink, I shall file that info carefully. Exhausted and emotional are two things I have very much been of late. I'm hoping that other factors will help, I'm (usally, at least) fit and active, a healthy weight, don't drink to excess, and my blood pressure is OKish, but obviously it all remains to be seen.
They all tasted either of that stuff your mum put on your hands to stop you biting your nails, or grapefruit pith, or Fosters drunk through a lemon wet-wipe.*/**
I quite like hoppy IPAs and similar things, but I also like a decent bitter, and there's no need at all to put weird nonsense in beer.
I had a truly horrific pint a couple of years ago that tasted of mouthwash. It was as though your dentist invited you in for a beer, and got rather horrifically confused. That's one of the very few times I've ever failed to finish a pint.
Another female who likes darker beers (as well as IPAs) here. Not as keen on stouts as @Sandemaniac but I do like what tends to get called red/ruby.
We both recall one bottle of a vanilla stout, from a usually good brewery, that by halfway down just tasted of cheap vanilla icecream 🤢. A hint of vanilla, fine. No way was that a hint!
It is a shock, but good to start feeling so much better with treatment. I discovered I had diabetes and low thyroid at the same time, and that was what was causing me to fall asleep at work every day.
Also worth noting that diabetes does not automatically mean you've been eating and exercising badly. My husband got it and he is the obnoxious patron saint of exercise and good eating. Sometimes shit just happens (in our case, probably a genetic thing; also COVID is causing a lot of cases right now). It's not a moral issue.
I'm amused that the software renders that as a black heart - someone will get ideas!
Thank you for your well-wishes, @Graven Image , and for your reminder, @Lamb Chopped that possibly I'm sounding a bit up myself! Shit, as they say, happens.
I'm amused that the software renders that as a black heart - someone will get ideas!
Thank you for your well-wishes, @Graven Image , and for your reminder, @Lamb Chopped that possibly I'm sounding a bit up myself! Shit, as they say, happens.
Oh, not at all up yourself! Possibly chagrined... I hoped to make that feel better, not worse.
I'm amused that the software renders that as a black heart - someone will get ideas!
Thank you for your well-wishes, @Graven Image , and for your reminder, @Lamb Chopped that possibly I'm sounding a bit up myself! Shit, as they say, happens.
Oh, not at all up yourself! Possibly chagrined... I hoped to make that feel better, not worse.
Apropos of nothing: on my phone your avatar appeared to me to be a centaur wielding a baseball bat!
Thank you, best laugh I've had in days, and I needed it! I would like to claim that the pic is me about to dump a cricket ball in a Dutch canal, but the chap with the camera had put it down for that ball, so it is only of me trying to dump a cricket ball in a Dutch canal.
Apropos of nothing: on my phone your avatar appeared to me to be a centaur wielding a baseball bat!
Thank you, best laugh I've had in days, and I needed it! I would like to claim that the pic is me about to dump a cricket ball in a Dutch canal, but the chap with the camera had put it down for that ball, so it is only of me trying to dump a cricket ball in a Dutch canal.
We have canals here too, you know. You didn't need to go that far to dump your cricket balls.
TICTH DeSantis. I’m a Floridian. My first college was New College of Florida (which was named after New College of Oxford), which he has seen fit to do catastrophic, politicized damage to, putting horrible people in to run what has been—up till now— a quirky cool awesome place for oddball geniuses, and the most queer-friendly college in the state.
He’s also done so much damage to my home state. Prayers welcome that when he gets out of office, we get someone who will undo as much of the damage as possible.
This is where I was born and raised and I consider at home. I’m not planning on leaving, despite all this.
TICTH DeSantis. I’m a Floridian. My first college was New College of Florida (which was named after New College of Oxford), which he has seen fit to do catastrophic, politicized damage to, putting horrible people in to run what has been—up till now— a quirky cool awesome place for oddball geniuses, and the most queer-friendly college in the state.
He’s also done so much damage to my home state. Prayers welcome that when he gets out of office, we get someone who will undo as much of the damage as possible.
This is where I was born and raised and I consider at home. I’m not planning on leaving, despite all this.
Please pray for us here.
He seems pretty horrible. I can't see how he much differs from the shitstains at school who seek out the queer or otherwise "different" kids and make their lives miserable. Motivated by irrational hatred and amazingly thinks he's on the side of the angels. That's the problem with evil though - it always thinks it's actually good.
@ChastMastr at least he's out of the presidential race.
A friend of mine in Florida was raging about him along the same lines: his anti-science, anti-woke, anti-critical race education, anti-LGBTQI+ rights, anti-women, pro-gun policies etc etc have damaged Florida in so many ways. My friend is a health practitioner and said DeSantis nominated Joseph Ladapo for surgeon general of Florida and then Ladapo went on a mission to try and keep Florida "open" during the pandemic and has criticized the vaccines since they made their appearance. The "don't say gay"bills have made it illegal for trans people to get the medical help they need. Drag shows have come under attack, life in Florida has been made unbearable for queer and trans youngsters. A report in the Orlando Sentinel talked about how DeSantis refused Federal funds to help with things from health coverage to environmental action. A nightmare.
The GP was due to call me this afternoon. They called at 11, which would normally be fine, but I was in the loo and the phone was on the bed. Fine, said they'd call back, except when they did the bloody phone didn't even notice it was being called (crap signal, I suspect, but even so WiFi calling should have picked it up). As a result I've missed my slot and can't get another call until the 30th! So I now have to hang on another 48 hours for the call from the diabetes nurse and hope that they get through. They do at least now have the correct landline number, which someone had miss-entered, so have a reserve number to call, but I am tired, pissed off, and fuming now. No-one has actually told me what is wrong yet, I'm just guessing from the nurse appointment, and I've just about had enough.
I was at my surgeon yesterday for a 6 month check up, and was there for over two hours before I was taken to the exam room. And over another half hour before I was seen. My appointment was for 2, I got out close to 5.
Comments
TICTH modern trends in beer brewing.
I had never, not in my worst nightmares, not since CAMRA saved us from Whitbread Trophy and Watney's Red Barrel, dreamt that a situation could arise where I could walk into a pub with a dozen handpulls and be stuck for something I wanted to drink. The problem would normally be prioritisation after negotiation with my liver.
It has happened.
Every damned pump at the place - proper hand pumps; this isn't a lack of cask ale problem - carried lager-pale ale which loudly proclaimed the (far too many) hop varieties involved in its manufacture.
They all tasted either of that stuff your mum put on your hands to stop you biting your nails, or grapefruit pith, or Fosters drunk through a lemon wet-wipe.*/**
What happened to malt heavy best bitters, bready and biscuity in the body, with just enough hop bitterness to ofset the residual non-fermentable sugars, imparting a subtle floral or grassy note as they did so? They are still produced, but the pubs aren't putting them on.
I know where this has come from. Excited by hipster craft keg beers, cask brewers have started using the same ideas for their cask offerings. Fine, if they must, but it's pushed the styles I like completely out of the door.
I feel strangely bereaved; sitting in a real ale pub and for the first time in 40 years of beer drinking feeling out of place
*They did have some draught Bass. This is a bit like running a restaurant that prides itself on the quality of its food, but on finding some people don't like beef putting on an option of frozen chicken nuggets.***
**To be fair, they did have an oatmeal stout. That should have been an oasis for me but it wasn't. It tasted like porridge.
***OK, John Smiths Smooth would have been even (actually quite a lot) worse, but you get the picture.
I'm afraid NZ is a bit below the radar here in the UK at the moment, but maybe @Huia is annoyed at this:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/16/new-zealand-government-voting-age-change-rejected-minimum-terms-parliament
I sympathise, although I have to admit to preferring Furrin Beer, notably from Poland, Italy, or Czechia...
I'm not really into Real Ale, but will happily sample any particular brand recommended to me by someone who is in the know.
🍻
I love a citrusy IPA. I find malty bitters too sweet.
I don't think I've ever had a bitter that I would describe as at all sweet. Some porters and milds yes, but bitters never taste sweet to me. I've always assumed the residual sugars are cancelled out by the hops because I can't taste them.
Funny thing is, as soon as there is any sweetness I can detect - e.g. apple sauce on pork, apricots in tagine, pineapple on gammon (or God forfend pizza) then I really hate it.
Not that this helps me find something that tastes even a bit like Theakstons XB (my all time favourite beer) in the vast majority of real ale pubs. I'd settle for Charles Wells Eagle Bitter from 1989 at this stage...
I guess it's one of those cyclical things. I remember Dad giving me a bottle of Tolly Cobbold Nut Brown Ale - Tolly long gone, sadly - with a cry of "beer like it used to be". It was gorgeous, many but with a sharp tang rather like a fresh hazelnut, the first time I understood references to nuttiness in beer. Just hope I'm still around to drink beer when it has passed by.
I think you'd have liked it.
Mrs T prefers more standard bitters so that's what's in the fermenting bin now. Needs dry hopping (Fuggles, none of your C-hops here) tomorrow.
I was trying to work out which of the many policies I objected to most.
The current Government is a coalition between National (historic Tory Party), Act (Libertarian) and NZ First (Populist has had some links with UKIP though I'm not sure how strong they were). Act want to re-write The Treaty of Waitangi, New Zealand's founding document, which is a treaty between Maori and the Crown. I am currently reading a book about the history of the Treaty which acknowledges Maori as the first people (tangata whenua)
Te Pati Maori (with a macron over both the letter a) ]list some of the points I am in agreement with;
Disestablishing the Maori Health Authority (Maori die on average 7 years earlier than Pakeha (NZers with a European heritage), and like indigenous people in other countries, are more likely to underachieve at school, be in low wage jobs, become incarcerated and live in poverty.
The coalition want to roll back smoke free legislation to fund tax cuts promised by National (who originally proposed to fund them by flogging off property to rich people from overseas, except NZ First objected). This will impact more heavily on Maori, and will benefit most those in high paying jobs.
Act want to re-write The Treaty, even the Prime Minister National)agrees this would be divisive,(though he;s willing to give limited support while activists say it will lead to blood on the streets.
The coalition also want to repeal legislation limiting speed in some high accident areas. Between that and the repeal of the anti-smoking legislation they are hardly life affirming.
In addition I think they are more likely to allow off shore drilling for oil again. And I read in the paper today that some electric vehicles my be charged more in road user charges than some diesel.
I am not sure where I stand on lowering the voting age, but I would have welcomed a discussion on it.
Thanks @Huia - as I said before, I'm afraid New Zealand isn't in the UK news very much these days, as our deranged and dying *government* tries desperately to transport innocent people to foreign prison camps, but the days of *Jacindamania* must seem very far away...
Not that she was perfect, of course, but YSWIM...
Yeah, that one bugs me as well.
🙏
IANAD, but sometimes just knowing what the problem is is the first step to dealing with it.
It wasn't diabetes in my case, but simply finding out that I had a brain tumour the size of a small orange 🟠 was the beginning of overcoming it...
Very true. I am much calmer about it than I'd have ever thought. So far, anyway.
FWIW it is now known that in some circumstances you can put diabetes into remission.
One thing I found was that the year I had diabetes and didn’t yet know I was exhausted and much more emotional than usual. Getting it under control really helped with that.
Thanks, @Doublethink, I shall file that info carefully. Exhausted and emotional are two things I have very much been of late. I'm hoping that other factors will help, I'm (usally, at least) fit and active, a healthy weight, don't drink to excess, and my blood pressure is OKish, but obviously it all remains to be seen.
👍
I quite like hoppy IPAs and similar things, but I also like a decent bitter, and there's no need at all to put weird nonsense in beer.
I had a truly horrific pint a couple of years ago that tasted of mouthwash. It was as though your dentist invited you in for a beer, and got rather horrifically confused. That's one of the very few times I've ever failed to finish a pint.
We both recall one bottle of a vanilla stout, from a usually good brewery, that by halfway down just tasted of cheap vanilla icecream 🤢. A hint of vanilla, fine. No way was that a hint!
Also worth noting that diabetes does not automatically mean you've been eating and exercising badly. My husband got it and he is the obnoxious patron saint of exercise and good eating. Sometimes shit just happens (in our case, probably a genetic thing; also COVID is causing a lot of cases right now). It's not a moral issue.
I'm amused that the software renders that as a black heart - someone will get ideas!
Thank you for your well-wishes, @Graven Image , and for your reminder, @Lamb Chopped that possibly I'm sounding a bit up myself! Shit, as they say, happens.
On my Tablet it's a red heart.
Oh, not at all up yourself! Possibly chagrined... I hoped to make that feel better, not worse.
Red on our phones, black on our laptops. Might be the different browsers (Chrome on the phones, but Firefox on the laptops)?
BTW, thanks to all of you for support. (He says he will wear it always...) It does help.❤️🩹
Nope, I haven't been chagrined for weeks!
Apropos of nothing: on my phone your avatar appeared to me to be a centaur wielding a baseball bat!
Thank you, best laugh I've had in days, and I needed it! I would like to claim that the pic is me about to dump a cricket ball in a Dutch canal, but the chap with the camera had put it down for that ball, so it is only of me trying to dump a cricket ball in a Dutch canal.
We have canals here too, you know. You didn't need to go that far to dump your cricket balls.
FWIW, I'm seeing it as a black heart, using Chrome on a Win10 laptop
I’ve also become diabetic in the last few years myself…
OMG are you doing all right now? ❤️
He’s also done so much damage to my home state. Prayers welcome that when he gets out of office, we get someone who will undo as much of the damage as possible.
This is where I was born and raised and I consider at home. I’m not planning on leaving, despite all this.
Please pray for us here.
He seems pretty horrible. I can't see how he much differs from the shitstains at school who seek out the queer or otherwise "different" kids and make their lives miserable. Motivated by irrational hatred and amazingly thinks he's on the side of the angels. That's the problem with evil though - it always thinks it's actually good.
A friend of mine in Florida was raging about him along the same lines: his anti-science, anti-woke, anti-critical race education, anti-LGBTQI+ rights, anti-women, pro-gun policies etc etc have damaged Florida in so many ways. My friend is a health practitioner and said DeSantis nominated Joseph Ladapo for surgeon general of Florida and then Ladapo went on a mission to try and keep Florida "open" during the pandemic and has criticized the vaccines since they made their appearance. The "don't say gay"bills have made it illegal for trans people to get the medical help they need. Drag shows have come under attack, life in Florida has been made unbearable for queer and trans youngsters. A report in the Orlando Sentinel talked about how DeSantis refused Federal funds to help with things from health coverage to environmental action. A nightmare.
Yes, thanks - it was removed about 8 years ago, but left me with a number of serious health/mobility issues (which I won't bore you with!).