FWIW, the comprehensive Norfolk and Suffolk Churches series by Simon Knott (available online) are full of references to churches being at least open to visitors, however isolated the buildings might be, and Mr Knott always commends the clergy (if any!) and people (if any!) for this.
Certainly there is a very vibrant community centre in a neighbouring small town which has secured funding to revamp the building, provide a good quality kitchen, and now houses a regular pop up cafe, warm space, and various other community events. Currently we have nothing comparable in Wigtown - altho there are a lot of cafes already, associated with the booktown. If and when the church hall is sold off, this will release funds to adapt the church building to better fit the needs of the 21st century.
Hopefully the provision of a quiet space for personal reflection has not been ruled out of court in the 21st century.
As it is a presbyterian church, this has never been something that forms a real part of its role. It does open a couple of hours some days in the Summer for the benefit of visitors - but this is mainly because of the links to the Wigtown martyrs, and couple of mediaeval relics housed in the church.
There are no concrete plans in place yet, just a general hope that we can install a small kitchen, improve toilet facilities, and hopefully screen off an area in the transcept to be used for small meetings (currently held in the Hall) and children's church (squashed into a small vestry) etc. Some of us would also like to see more of the old fixed pews removed and replaced with something more comfortable and flexible. There would be no real scope for a community cafe as such, as there are already several tearooms in the town, and the church is well away from the main shopping area.
FWIW, the comprehensive Norfolk and Suffolk Churches series by Simon Knott (available online) are full of references to churches being at least open to visitors, however isolated the buildings might be, and Mr Knott always commends the clergy (if any!) and people (if any!) for this.
I’ve been told that from an insurance point of view it is better for a church to be open and unmanned each day so that there is a throughput of people keeping an eye on it, than it being locked up and potentially broken into.
I can't imagine an American insurance company would advise this; they'd say to have an alarm system. And the one time the church I worked for opened the doors all day for prayer (9/11), there were several thefts.
Scotland has a Presbyterian territorial parish structure ,but there are not all that many 'ordinary' Presbyterian parish churches which are open for prayer during the week. Presbyterians in general see church buildings as 'meeting places for the people of God
Ah, ours is always open so I wasn't aware it was unusual for rural Kirks.
I am always delighted when I see any church which is open. I don't know so much about rural kirks but certainly in the cities and towns of the industrial belt it is unusual to see a Presbyterian church open apart from service times when the people of God are called to prayer.
It is, however, much the same for both Episcopal and RC churches these days,
Our own 'ordinary' RC church is only open at the time of services. And yet last Monday when a group of us were undertaking some work in the church three people came in separately to pray during the time that the door was open.
I'm always glad to find churches open and have even found a few town centre non-conformist chapels open at times. They are of interest in a different way to medieval churches and cathedrals of course.
I used to like spending a few moments in quiet contemplation within church buildings even in my full-on evangelical charismatic days when we met in hired halls and kept telling anyone who'd listen that 'the church isn't the building.'
I think the places and spaces where we meet does affect / effect us in some way. Even if we meet at the local leisure centre or a school hall.
It's often struck me that churches which meet in such places will often put up banners or - these days - even light candles while they are using them. At one time they'd have simply lugged in and set up the sound system.
On @Baptist Trainfan's comment about the influence of Romanticism on the way we approach spaces used for worship ... yes, I'm sure that's right. I've long thought that Sir Walter Scott was probably as much of an influence on mid-19th century Anglo-Catholicism as any Tractarian tract.
I'm sure we can see a Romantic influence on groups like the Catholic Apostolic Church and later forms of Methodism too, come to that.
Any how ... I'm sometimes struck by how people who don't attend church services themselves will say things like, 'it was plain and simple inside, just as it should be ...'
Residual Puritanism perhaps?
But I digress.
Whilst I share some posters' concerns about filthy lucre or inappropriate activity impinging on 'sacred space', I think there's a balance. I'm sure there are very imaginative schemes around which both preserve the integrity of the worship space, as it were, and allow for mixed or community use.
I’ve been told that from an insurance point of view it is better for a church to be open and unmanned each day so that there is a throughput of people keeping an eye on it, than it being locked up and potentially broken into.
But does that depend on where it is? The church for the Norfolk hamlet where my sister used to live is "miles from anywhere", standing by itself in a field. The visitor throughput is zero; any intruder could strip the place bare without anyone seeing.
However the isolation is also protective in itself, I would suggest.
Having lived in isolated places and busy places, my experience is that busy places are always a lot safer. Eyes and ears make all the difference when it comes to social or anti-social behavior. Isolation is very dangerous.
A friend in a church choir had her bag stolen after the service in full view in a busy church. She was in the choir vestry and had left it by the organ. A busy church is not always a safe place.
Indeed not - for that kind of theft. But things like graffiti, arson, theft of lead roofing etc are surely much easier to carry out in an isolated building.
Somewhere in a more isolated space or in a rural community things are generally safer than they might be in a busy city. In a rural setting all people tend to know a one another better than those in a big city. They would more easily be aware of strangers in their
midst and be aware of anything of unusual significance which might have taken place.
Given the kind of hyperconumerist individualism that is the default position now, in the Anglosphere at least, I'm not sure that any setting is necessarily any better or worse than any other. The million-yard stare protects people from all responsibility for their neighbour at will. Or thus the currently dominant ideology has it.
ETA: it has struck me that this is the problem all over - joining is now so counter-cultural that anything requiring a community to sustain it is probably doomed, unless it can penetrate this protective layer.
Given the kind of hyperconsumerist individualism that is the default position now, in the Anglosphere at least, I'm not sure that any setting is necessarily any better or worse than any other. The million-yard stare protects people from all responsibility for their neighbour at will. Or thus the currently dominant ideology has it.
ETA: it has struck me that this is the problem all over - joining is now so counter-cultural that anything requiring a community to sustain it is probably doomed, unless it can penetrate this protective layer.
You're right about joining (or the lack of it!), and I wonder if this unwillingness to commit oneself is the reason why cathedrals have growing attendances (or so we are told).
They're places where it's much easier to drop in and/or out anonymously, without being pounced upon to join the choir/home group/coffee rota or whatever...
The million-yard stare protects people from all responsibility for their neighbour at will. Or thus the currently dominant ideology has it.
Depends where you are, and the death of older England is IME much exaggerated. I live in a village of about 250 people, have lived there for 3 years, and reckon I *know* perhaps 150 of them. The other 100 I know by sight.
It’s the strength and weakness at the same time - yes it’s nice to know your neighbours but it can be a bit like living in a darker version of the Truman Show: I have known people to be sworn at (at the time, not under the breath) for not saying hello in the lanes…
you simply cannot get away with the million yard stare. They’ll apologise later if it turns out you’ve just been bereaved or whatever, but in general coming across another person on foot is the start of a conversation or at least an exchange of pleasantries, and someone not engaging is a cause of comment to them at the time, and to everyone else in the pub later.
English villages are a bit like when I used to visit friends and relatives in Zimbabwe and the pilot came on the speakers - ‘welcome to Bulawayo, where the local time is 1950, and I don’t mean adjust your watches so much as your minds’
My favourite church for 'contemplation' is the Roman Catholic church in Central Manchester known as the Hidden Gem. It's a beautiful church (especially the interior) and has the most wonderful atmosphere of peace. There are always people in it, never less than half a dozen and often far more. I highly recommend it as a location for balm to the soul. As the site will tell you, people of all denominations love the place. I am but one humble example of its (non-Catholic) fan club.
The sad thing is this model could not possibly be copied in every suburban and village church. Being in central Manchester gives it a natural throughput of visitors and (I strongly suspect) a very decent income from casual offerings. It seems to me that each church is unique and what answers for one will not answer for others. Maybe in some cases, it's a choice of either a cafe (or whatever) or no church at all.
Is ‘roster’ more common in the USA? Or is there another word for a table of regular duties showing who is carrying out each duty on any given date?
In my experience, there really isn’t a particular word used for the list itself. “Sign-up sheet,” maybe? “Schedule” or “calendar” also come close—in terms like “I’m on the schedule to be reader that day” or “you’re on the calendar for flowers that day.” Or quite commonly “She’s signed up for the Sunday after next.”
“Roster” is more commonly used to mean a list of people, like a roll. So, a list of all members of a sports team or of members of the Session is a “roster.” I only here is used in terms of who is doing what when as a “duty roster,” which is primarily military or military-inspired usage.
LOL - join any British church - certainly an Anglican one - and you'll find there's a rota (or duty roster) for practically everything.... making teas/coffees, handing out hymn books, doing the flowers, reading the lessons, doing the intercessions, taking the communion elements up to the altar, weeding the church garden, cleaning the brass.....
LOL - join any British church - certainly an Anglican one - and you'll find there's a rota (or duty roster) for practically everything.... making teas/coffees, handing out hymn books, doing the flowers, reading the lessons, doing the intercessions, taking the communion elements up to the altar, weeding the church garden, cleaning the brass.....
Of course some of us look with envy on those churches well populated enough to have a rota for things.
And those churches who seem to be able to list and illustrate on their website a multitude of paid and volunteer staff, all with requisite smiles, while the folk down the road get something like 25% of a Vicar (if they're lucky).
True, although it's often the case that even those churches with just a small portion of a Vicar are still alive and well - albeit perhaps only because of laity willing to do the bare necessities IYSWIM.
Problems arise when there simply aren't enough willing laity.
Rotas, rosters or schedules will carry on so long as there is one willing martyr to do the work of six or seven.
As will the gossip that is the lifeblood of small country churches. Few things strike more terror into my heart than finding myself yet again on the prayer list of a local church (we have about 12 denominations here), especially when I have no idea why they are all praying for my immortal soul with such gusto. Sermons on the evils of gossip and slander are frequent and disregarded, because gossip is the leading source of amusement, creative malice and interest to counter the dull monotony of rural life once the harvest is in. One of my neighbours says he only goes to church to find out what is happening behind the respectable lace curtains.
True, although it's often the case that even those churches with just a small portion of a Vicar are still alive and well - albeit perhaps only because of laity willing to do the bare necessities IYSWIM.
Problems arise when there simply aren't enough willing laity.
I don't think it's particularly difficult for nonconformist churches to make the decision to close, especially if they are basically self-governing and independent (eg Baptists).
I think it's much more difficult in the CofE because of the parish and diocesan system, legal obligations and, often, ancient Listed buildings.
True, although it's often the case that even those churches with just a small portion of a Vicar are still alive and well - albeit perhaps only because of laity willing to do the bare necessities IYSWIM.
Problems arise when there simply aren't enough willing laity.
Then perhaps that church should close.
Well, that's when the process of closure may begin, certainly - but, as you perhaps know, it's a long and painful process in the C of E...
Perhaps I'm being a bit cynical, but it seems to me that, if a CofE congregation wishes to close down, it immediately becomes hedged in with all sorts of legal and diocesan caveats and complications.
However, while it's still open, the good folk of the parish are basically told, "It's your responsibility to keep the place weathertight and the lights on".
Perhaps I'm being a bit cynical, but it seems to me that, if a CofE congregation wishes to close down, it immediately becomes hedged in with all sorts of legal and diocesan caveats and complications.
However, while it's still open, the good folk of the parish are basically told, "It's your responsibility to keep the place weathertight and the lights on".
I'd call that *reasonably accurate* rather than *cynical*, although, in fairness, some dioceses do try to help in a positive way.
As has been mentioned on this thread, there are alternatives to complete closure which avoid at least some of the legal pitfalls (and expense, both in time and £££).
One local CinW congregation held its final service last Sunday - although, as it met (as it has since it was founded) in a church school, there are no issues with buildings. Artefacts etc are a different matter though. In any case, the legal matters may be different from those in England as the CinW, though Anglican, is disestablished.
It touches on a number of threads brought up in this topic, among them the interwoven sociality supported by the church.
I found this moving and filled with pathos, the loss of so much more than just a rural church. At the same time, it did make me wonder why the writer derives no comfort from the thriving missionary churches in Africa once converted and then supported by Methodist congregations because that is the present reality, Methodism alive and well from East/West Africa to southern Africa. It may decline in time but current estimates have the Methodist church going strong in southern Africa at 2.1-million. The circuits are buzzing...
At the same time, it did make me wonder why the writer derives no comfort from the thriving missionary churches in Africa once converted and then supported by Methodist congregations because that is the present reality
There's a tangential mention of missionary churches in the reference to Fiji, but otherwise I assume it's because he's mourning the loss of the community he knew.
Your question also assumes the writer is familiar with the South African situation. Regrettable as it sounds, there's no real reason why he should be.
We could fill a whole thread and more besides on the reasons for that and I'm not condoning it. But would a writer in Bulowayo or Harare or Durban necessarily reference what was happening in County Durham, say, if they were writing about Methodism in Southern Africa?
Comments
It usually is, until the one day it isn’t.
http://www.norfolkchurches.co.uk/mainpage.htm
No doubt the same applies to churches in other parts of the country.
As it is a presbyterian church, this has never been something that forms a real part of its role. It does open a couple of hours some days in the Summer for the benefit of visitors - but this is mainly because of the links to the Wigtown martyrs, and couple of mediaeval relics housed in the church.
There are no concrete plans in place yet, just a general hope that we can install a small kitchen, improve toilet facilities, and hopefully screen off an area in the transcept to be used for small meetings (currently held in the Hall) and children's church (squashed into a small vestry) etc. Some of us would also like to see more of the old fixed pews removed and replaced with something more comfortable and flexible. There would be no real scope for a community cafe as such, as there are already several tearooms in the town, and the church is well away from the main shopping area.
I never knowingly met Mr Knott, but his daughter(s) used to attend my church's Brownies/Guides! He also did this wonderful April Fool spoof: http://www.simonknott.co.uk/ipswichunderground.htm
I can't imagine an American insurance company would advise this; they'd say to have an alarm system. And the one time the church I worked for opened the doors all day for prayer (9/11), there were several thefts.
Oh my, I remember that appearing, I'd forgotten all about it!
Ah, ours is always open so I wasn't aware it was unusual for rural Kirks.
It is, however, much the same for both Episcopal and RC churches these days,
Our own 'ordinary' RC church is only open at the time of services. And yet last Monday when a group of us were undertaking some work in the church three people came in separately to pray during the time that the door was open.
Pleased to meet you, folks.
I'm always glad to find churches open and have even found a few town centre non-conformist chapels open at times. They are of interest in a different way to medieval churches and cathedrals of course.
I used to like spending a few moments in quiet contemplation within church buildings even in my full-on evangelical charismatic days when we met in hired halls and kept telling anyone who'd listen that 'the church isn't the building.'
I think the places and spaces where we meet does affect / effect us in some way. Even if we meet at the local leisure centre or a school hall.
It's often struck me that churches which meet in such places will often put up banners or - these days - even light candles while they are using them. At one time they'd have simply lugged in and set up the sound system.
On @Baptist Trainfan's comment about the influence of Romanticism on the way we approach spaces used for worship ... yes, I'm sure that's right. I've long thought that Sir Walter Scott was probably as much of an influence on mid-19th century Anglo-Catholicism as any Tractarian tract.
I'm sure we can see a Romantic influence on groups like the Catholic Apostolic Church and later forms of Methodism too, come to that.
Any how ... I'm sometimes struck by how people who don't attend church services themselves will say things like, 'it was plain and simple inside, just as it should be ...'
Residual Puritanism perhaps?
But I digress.
Whilst I share some posters' concerns about filthy lucre or inappropriate activity impinging on 'sacred space', I think there's a balance. I'm sure there are very imaginative schemes around which both preserve the integrity of the worship space, as it were, and allow for mixed or community use.
Having lived in isolated places and busy places, my experience is that busy places are always a lot safer. Eyes and ears make all the difference when it comes to social or anti-social behavior. Isolation is very dangerous.
midst and be aware of anything of unusual significance which might have taken place.
ETA: it has struck me that this is the problem all over - joining is now so counter-cultural that anything requiring a community to sustain it is probably doomed, unless it can penetrate this protective layer.
You're right about joining (or the lack of it!), and I wonder if this unwillingness to commit oneself is the reason why cathedrals have growing attendances (or so we are told).
They're places where it's much easier to drop in and/or out anonymously, without being pounced upon to join the choir/home group/coffee rota or whatever...
Depends where you are, and the death of older England is IME much exaggerated. I live in a village of about 250 people, have lived there for 3 years, and reckon I *know* perhaps 150 of them. The other 100 I know by sight.
It’s the strength and weakness at the same time - yes it’s nice to know your neighbours but it can be a bit like living in a darker version of the Truman Show: I have known people to be sworn at (at the time, not under the breath) for not saying hello in the lanes…
you simply cannot get away with the million yard stare. They’ll apologise later if it turns out you’ve just been bereaved or whatever, but in general coming across another person on foot is the start of a conversation or at least an exchange of pleasantries, and someone not engaging is a cause of comment to them at the time, and to everyone else in the pub later.
English villages are a bit like when I used to visit friends and relatives in Zimbabwe and the pilot came on the speakers - ‘welcome to Bulawayo, where the local time is 1950, and I don’t mean adjust your watches so much as your minds’
The sad thing is this model could not possibly be copied in every suburban and village church. Being in central Manchester gives it a natural throughput of visitors and (I strongly suspect) a very decent income from casual offerings. It seems to me that each church is unique and what answers for one will not answer for others. Maybe in some cases, it's a choice of either a cafe (or whatever) or no church at all.
I don't understand
“Roster” is more commonly used to mean a list of people, like a roll. So, a list of all members of a sports team or of members of the Session is a “roster.” I only here is used in terms of who is doing what when as a “duty roster,” which is primarily military or military-inspired usage.
Thanks! I could whinge a lot about my time, back in the day, on the teas and coffees rota!
I did wonder whether it was a borrowed phrase from 'helicopter parents '. Used to be a thing in the UK not sure if nowadays.
Of course some of us look with envy on those churches well populated enough to have a rota for things.
Problems arise when there simply aren't enough willing laity.
Oh surely you still need a rota, even if it's the same 3 people doing everything!?!
*stares in technician, music coordinator, choir, lector and treasurer*
3 people? 3 people?! Where do you get the idea that we have 3 people able and willing to do the tasks?
As will the gossip that is the lifeblood of small country churches. Few things strike more terror into my heart than finding myself yet again on the prayer list of a local church (we have about 12 denominations here), especially when I have no idea why they are all praying for my immortal soul with such gusto. Sermons on the evils of gossip and slander are frequent and disregarded, because gossip is the leading source of amusement, creative malice and interest to counter the dull monotony of rural life once the harvest is in. One of my neighbours says he only goes to church to find out what is happening behind the respectable lace curtains.
Then perhaps thate church should close.
I think it's much more difficult in the CofE because of the parish and diocesan system, legal obligations and, often, ancient Listed buildings.
Well, that's when the process of closure may begin, certainly - but, as you perhaps know, it's a long and painful process in the C of E...
However, while it's still open, the good folk of the parish are basically told, "It's your responsibility to keep the place weathertight and the lights on".
I'd call that *reasonably accurate* rather than *cynical*, although, in fairness, some dioceses do try to help in a positive way.
As has been mentioned on this thread, there are alternatives to complete closure which avoid at least some of the legal pitfalls (and expense, both in time and £££).
Interesting article from the "Guardian": http://tinyurl.com/56esud4v
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2024/03/death-church-methodism-christianity-religion
It touches on a number of threads brought up in this topic, among them the interwoven sociality supported by the church.
I found this moving and filled with pathos, the loss of so much more than just a rural church. At the same time, it did make me wonder why the writer derives no comfort from the thriving missionary churches in Africa once converted and then supported by Methodist congregations because that is the present reality, Methodism alive and well from East/West Africa to southern Africa. It may decline in time but current estimates have the Methodist church going strong in southern Africa at 2.1-million. The circuits are buzzing...
There's a tangential mention of missionary churches in the reference to Fiji, but otherwise I assume it's because he's mourning the loss of the community he knew.
We could fill a whole thread and more besides on the reasons for that and I'm not condoning it. But would a writer in Bulowayo or Harare or Durban necessarily reference what was happening in County Durham, say, if they were writing about Methodism in Southern Africa?