All the choices for PM are awful

HugalHugal Shipmate
Sunak is incompetent. Starmer has said one thing and done another in a big way. IMO we cannot trust either of these to be a good PM. The other leaders are not in with a shout. The Greens may pick up some of those on the left who will not vote Labour now, but not enough to make a difference. What a choice.

Comments

  • Unless we are party members, we do not get a vote for party leader and therefore can never choose the PM
  • True enough, but we can vote (or not) for their party...

    Of all the choices of party currently on offer, ISTM that a Labour government with Starmer as PM is the least offensive, and perhaps the most likely, option.

  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Telford wrote: »
    Unless we are party members, we do not get a vote for party leader and therefore can never choose the PM

    And even if we are party members they can flagrantly lie to us to get elected then change the rules to make it harder to get rid of them.
  • Yes, what a choice, but there is no way I am risking another ghastly Tory govt. I mean I will vote tactically, in this area, Labour.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    I don't want any of them. I want a moderate centre party with principles and integrity that I can vote for. (Yes, I know, but it's what I want.)

    Which is going to make it quite difficult by the time the election comes round as each party has something that gives me pause for thought - tactical voting is one thing but I don't want to elect a bunch of people whose principles I don't feel I can support either.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited February 2024
    "To me, voting Labour is like wiping your bottom: I can't say I like doing it but you've got to – because you're in a worse mess if you don't.”

    Jeremy Hardy of blessed memory.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Ariel wrote: »
    I don't want any of them. I want a moderate centre party with principles and integrity that I can vote for. (Yes, I know, but it's what I want.)

    What principles would a "moderate centre" party have?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    "To me, voting Labour is like wiping your bottom: I can't say I like doing it but you've got to – because you're in a worse mess if you don't.”

    Jeremy Hardy of blessed memory.

    Where can I buy a political bidet?
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    Ariel wrote: »
    I don't want any of them. I want a moderate centre party with principles and integrity that I can vote for. (Yes, I know, but it's what I want.)

    What principles would a "moderate centre" party have?

    Dunno, I hadn't thought that far, only that I know I want them to have them. 🥴
  • Going back to the choice of Prime Minister (which I know we don't really have, at least directly), I'd like to see Caroline Lucas MP (former leader of the Green Party in England and Wales) in charge:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Lucas

    Given that she's not seeking re-election next time round, and as she's the only Green MP in England anyway, having her as PM isn't likely to happen...at least, not on this side of the pending apocalypse.
    :disappointed:
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Sian Berry will be standing for the Brighton Pavilion seat Lucas is vacating, and would be expecting to come in strongly - with Lucas winning a 20,000 majority in 2019 that should be enough to hold on. There's a new seat in Bristol where Greens hold 12 of the 14 council positions that could also be a good night for the Greens, with the Tories a good way behind in recent elections in the Bristol constituencies there's little danger of a swing from Labour to Green letting the Tories in (which is the big challenge for Greens in most English constituencies, people who would want to vote Green concerned that they need to vote for the biggest non-Tory party, usually Lab but LibDem in some places). So, 2 Green MPs should be quite possible, there are a couple of other constituencies where they have an outside shout - 4 MPs would be a fantastic result for them.

    Meanwhile, in Scotland the political landscape is totally different.
  • Ariel wrote: »
    I don't want any of them. I want a moderate centre party with principles and integrity that I can vote for. (Yes, I know, but it's what I want.)
    Come back the long-lamented SDP.

  • Sian Berry will be standing for the Brighton Pavilion seat Lucas is vacating, and would be expecting to come in strongly - with Lucas winning a 20,000 majority in 2019 that should be enough to hold on. There's a new seat in Bristol where Greens hold 12 of the 14 council positions that could also be a good night for the Greens, with the Tories a good way behind in recent elections in the Bristol constituencies there's little danger of a swing from Labour to Green letting the Tories in (which is the big challenge for Greens in most English constituencies, people who would want to vote Green concerned that they need to vote for the biggest non-Tory party, usually Lab but LibDem in some places). So, 2 Green MPs should be quite possible, there are a couple of other constituencies where they have an outside shout - 4 MPs would be a fantastic result for them.

    Meanwhile, in Scotland the political landscape is totally different.

    O I agree - there may be only one Green MP at the moment, but, as you say, to achieve 4 would be a wonderful result. Probably not enough to make a huge difference in a new Parliament, but every little helps...
  • Telford wrote: »
    Unless we are party members, we do not get a vote for party leader and therefore can never choose the PM

    And even if we are party members they can flagrantly lie to us to get elected then change the rules to make it harder to get rid of them.

    Which is very disappointing for Corbyn followers

  • Ariel wrote: »
    I don't want any of them. I want a moderate centre party with principles and integrity that I can vote for. (Yes, I know, but it's what I want.)

    What principles would a "moderate centre" party have?

    Without wishing to speak for Ariel, I think you can start with the principles that everyone should have - honesty, trustworthiness, and a genuine intent to govern in the best interests of the country.

    For a centrist, I think you then add a sense of caution and political pragmatism. You don't want to make rapid dramatic changes - you want to make small changes that don't rock the boat, and mean that the political / economic climate of the country is easy to predict, and stable over time.

  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Ariel wrote: »
    I don't want any of them. I want a moderate centre party with principles and integrity that I can vote for. (Yes, I know, but it's what I want.)

    What principles would a "moderate centre" party have?

    Without wishing to speak for Ariel, I think you can start with the principles that everyone should have - honesty, trustworthiness, and a genuine intent to govern in the best interests of the country.

    For a centrist, I think you then add a sense of caution and political pragmatism. You don't want to make rapid dramatic changes - you want to make small changes that don't rock the boat, and mean that the political / economic climate of the country is easy to predict, and stable over time.

    In other words conservatism - things are pretty much fine the way they are, just need a bit of tinkering around the edges. I really struggle to see how anyone can look at the state of the country and reach that conclusion. Besides which most of the shocks and instability in the last 20 years have been from external events (Brexit being the obvious, self-inflicted, exception).
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Ariel wrote: »
    I don't want any of them. I want a moderate centre party with principles and integrity that I can vote for. (Yes, I know, but it's what I want.)

    What principles would a "moderate centre" party have?

    Without wishing to speak for Ariel, I think you can start with the principles that everyone should have - honesty, trustworthiness, and a genuine intent to govern in the best interests of the country.

    For a centrist, I think you then add a sense of caution and political pragmatism. You don't want to make rapid dramatic changes - you want to make small changes that don't rock the boat, and mean that the political / economic climate of the country is easy to predict, and stable over time.

    In other words conservatism - things are pretty much fine the way they are, just need a bit of tinkering around the edges. I really struggle to see how anyone can look at the state of the country and reach that conclusion. Besides which most of the shocks and instability in the last 20 years have been from external events (Brexit being the obvious, self-inflicted, exception).

    Not true. Austerity was self inflicted. Selling off assets was self inflicted. Under funding the NHS was self inflicted. Incompetent PMs (like Boris) was self inflicted.


  • In other words conservatism - things are pretty much fine the way they are, just need a bit of tinkering around the edges. I really struggle to see how anyone can look at the state of the country and reach that conclusion.

    Or, which also leads to conservatism, but that's not always a bad thing (whichever party's in power) - I struggle to see how anyone can look at the state of the country, including all the ways in which the governing party has made things worse, and not think it's a worked example of the fact that governing parties can quickly make things worse!

    So, while acknowledging all the things that need to be put right, it's not about 'tinkering round the edges' - it's about not going off half cocked and changing things without being sure they are in fact going to make things better. You'll note that still leaves room for making big changes.

    Anything other than caution could alternatively be described as 'dream big and dare to fail' - personally I'm sick of 14 years of people dreaming big, daring to fail, and - er - failing... (both in government and in Opposition)

    Things are very much not fine the way they are. But given where we are now, God help anyone making things worse, however inadvertently, from left or right, and however much, or righteously, they don't believe it's what they're doing.

    I'm still voting Green, so I do have a dog in the fight - especially when it comes to big ideas - but even so.

  • I will be voting tactically in the (faint) hope of getting the Tory incumbent out, but what I really want is a system where I can cast a vote for the party I actually support and know that this will result in some representation of my views at Westminster.

    In other words I'm hoping for a government that will abolish FPTP.
  • In other words conservatism - things are pretty much fine the way they are, just need a bit of tinkering around the edges. I really struggle to see how anyone can look at the state of the country and reach that conclusion. Besides which most of the shocks and instability in the last 20 years have been from external events (Brexit being the obvious, self-inflicted, exception).

    I think most centrists would be reasonably conservative - "radical centrist" doesn't sound like a thing. But I think you're misinterpreting what I said.

    Making changes in a cautious and measured way is not at all the same as "things are pretty much fine the way they are and just need a bit of tinkering around the edges".

    Brexit, obviously, wasn't even slightly conservative, but was a blind leap off a cliff.

    You asked what principles a "principled centrist" would have.

    Honesty. Trustworthiness. Pragmatism. Cautious conservative. An intent to govern in the best interests of the country.
    Those things look like principles.

    And if you've got "pragmatism" as one of your leading principles, then you don't need many others, because your questions are always "what are the consequences if we do X" and "are those good consequences".
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    In other words conservatism - things are pretty much fine the way they are, just need a bit of tinkering around the edges. I really struggle to see how anyone can look at the state of the country and reach that conclusion. Besides which most of the shocks and instability in the last 20 years have been from external events (Brexit being the obvious, self-inflicted, exception).

    I think most centrists would be reasonably conservative - "radical centrist" doesn't sound like a thing. But I think you're misinterpreting what I said.

    Making changes in a cautious and measured way is not at all the same as "things are pretty much fine the way they are and just need a bit of tinkering around the edges".

    Brexit, obviously, wasn't even slightly conservative, but was a blind leap off a cliff.

    You asked what principles a "principled centrist" would have.

    Honesty. Trustworthiness. Pragmatism. Cautious conservative. An intent to govern in the best interests of the country.
    Those things look like principles.

    And if you've got "pragmatism" as one of your leading principles, then you don't need many others, because your questions are always "what are the consequences if we do X" and "are those good consequences".

    I'd put all of those things, barring pragmatism, under "integrity" rather than principle. And surely "are those good consequences" requires other principles in order to answer? Someone on the left would say that if it raises the living standards of the less well-off that's a good consequence; someone on the right would say that it's a bad consequence because it will discourage people from working hard to improve their standard of living. Pragmatism about methods I understand, but without a principled idea of what the end goal is, or what a better society would look like you have nothing to be pragmatic about.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    edited February 2024
    Pragmatism about methods I understand, but without a principled idea of what the end goal is, or what a better society would look like you have nothing to be pragmatic about.

    Without that grounding it becomes a raw pursuit of power above everything else fuelled by constant appeals to the lesser evil and the search for electability by looking statesmanlike:

    As Paul Krugman comments (when talking about austerity *):

    "Meanwhile, centrist politicians and pundits often try to demonstrate how serious and statesmanlike they are by calling for hard choices and sacrifice (by other people). Even Barack Obama’s first inaugural address, given in the face of a plunging economy, largely consisted of hard-choices boilerplate. As a result, centrists were almost as uncomfortable with the notion of fiscal stimulus as the hard right"

    [* An interesting topic in itself as centrists were generally in favour of it, and a few years on these very boards, those of us who argued against it were seen as wild-eyed ideologues with our refusal to accept the 'common sense' 'household budget' view of the economy].
  • . There's a new seat in Bristol where Greens hold 12 of the 14 council positions that could also be a good night for the Greens, with the Tories a good way behind in recent elections in the Bristol constituencies there's little danger of a swing from Labour to Green letting the Tories in

    I live in that constituency. The Greens are currently the only party doing any active canvassing. Result predicitions based on previous votes seem to vary between a reduced Labour majority (it was one of the biggest in the country) to a very tight marginal with Greens and Labour separated by fewer than 100 votes.

    The General Election could be interesting here.

  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    "To me, voting Labour is like wiping your bottom: I can't say I like doing it but you've got to – because you're in a worse mess if you don't.”

    Jeremy Hardy of blessed memory.

    LOL!
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