Ours was based on the story of Jonah and the repentance of Nineveh... which highlighted a few interesting themes; God's concern for those outside 'His chosen people', the notion of God 'changing His mind', but centrally our attitudes to God's call to do uncomfortable things which don't always fit our theology, character or preferences.
The Lord's prayer is an invitation to pray for forgiveness.
We need to be forgiving others, and God will empower us to do this
We need to forgive ourselves as well.
Our rector used Ephesians 5: 1-7 as the hook on which to hang his talk about Prayers of Love & Faith (C of E speak for same sex blessings). As expected, he took a "conservative" approach and stated that Our Place would not be offering same sex blessings. He used the Bible's "clobber verses" to justify his view and also the hate the sin, love the sinner line.
Not sure how this is going to affect the life of our church going forward.
Our reading (Ephesians 5: 8-20) was about “living in the light”. This is not just about being illuminated, but actually being “the light” so that the fruit of that light can shine out to others.
Paul's teaching about food offered to idols. Not to allow our 'superior' theology or church practice to be a stumbling block to those who come to Christ without our grounding in historical church tradition. To be open to new ways and insights, and able to discern what is really important in our faith, and what is just 'how we've always done it' - but not essential to other people from other backgrounds, or to the future of the church. This was linked to Jesus' words about allowing the little children to come to Him (enthusiastic, naive and without preconceptions) and the judgement on those who would prevent them or do them harm - damaging their fledgling faith by religious prejudice, rules, regulations and human requirements.
No idea. We had another visiting Indian priest with an impenetrable accent.
I wish the diocese would provide classes for these clergy to iron out the worst of their pronunciation.
No idea. We had another visiting Indian priest with an impenetrable accent.
I wish the diocese would provide classes for these clergy to iron out the worst of their pronunciation.
But that would require thought and effort, much like giving thought to why they have such a dearth of vocations in their own diocese that they need to poach clergy from half a world away.
No idea. We had another visiting Indian priest with an impenetrable accent.
I wish the diocese would provide classes for these clergy to iron out the worst of their pronunciation.
Have you considered watching some Bollywood films in Indian English with subtitles ? It would help you get your ear in so you can benefit from the preaching, and it would help you in making your visiting priests feel welcome and appreciated if you could converse with them effectively.
No idea. We had another visiting Indian priest with an impenetrable accent.
I wish the diocese would provide classes for these clergy to iron out the worst of their pronunciation.
Have you considered watching some Bollywood films in Indian English with subtitles ? It would help you get your ear in so you can benefit from the preaching, and it would help you in making your visiting priests feel welcome and appreciated if you could converse with them effectively.
The thing is one-to-one there is no problem. But at the microphone this one gabbles and puts the stresses on the wrong parts of the sentence so the meaning gets lost. One of the others just shouts down the mike despite being asked (very nicely) several times to lower his voice. They really do need some training. Its unrealistic to expect an entire congregation to watch Bollywood movies.
Is it more unrealistic than expecting someone to be able to modify their accent, or whoever does the sound for you folks to adjust the mike to take account of the speaker’s volume ?
It does also read as if you are lumping these folk together and not really thinking about them as individuals - I presume that is not your intention ?
The intonation of Indian English is not intelligible to most British English speakers. Priests, who are there to serve the congregations, can reasonably be expected to be able to communicate effectively. As a verbal medium, Indian English is not of itself sufficient preparation for this task.
I think that is not true. I say this on the basis of working with two Indian born and one Pakistani born doctor on a daily basis.
Not do I accept that the Indian English intonations is somehow uniquely difficult to get your ear into - over, say, a strong Glaswegian, Tyneside or Cockney accent.
What I do to deal with the wrong-stressed-syllable problem is take the manuscript and mark it up for the preacher. Each stressed syllable gets an accent mark (or underline, or what you please) so they can see where to put the emphasis. We print it in double or triple space 12 point type, so there's room to see the handwritten marks. Sometimes I put parentheses around the phrases so the preacher knows to take his breaths between the phrases and not in the middle of one.
It comes out looking rather like this:
(Grace to you) (and PEACE) (from GOD our FAther) (and from the LORD JEsus CHRIST.)
It makes a huge difference in people's ability to understand the preacher, we've had many comments afterward on how clear it was.
I think that is not true. I say this on the basis of working with two Indian born and one Pakistani born doctor on a daily basis.
Not do I accept that the Indian English intonations is somehow uniquely difficult to get your ear into - over, say, a strong Glaswegian, Tyneside or Cockney accent.
Indian intonation is typically far faster than either, from my observations. In any case, the onus should always be on the priest, and indeed ultimately on the church, not on the congregation. It is the priest who has the resources of the institution behind him, and both sides - priest and congregation - can reasonably expect the institution to prepare him to serve the congregation.
When we say the organization and institution should support the priest, the church itself is part of that. We don't get improved priests by telling seminaries to make better ones. We get improved priests by helping the ones we have.
Were the situation reversed and I found myself public speaking in a foreign language I would feel duty bound to make sure I was intelligible. At least I would ask the organisation that sent me there for professional help.
When we say the organization and institution should support the priest, the church itself is part of that. We don't get improved priests by telling seminaries to make better ones. We get improved priests by helping the ones we have.
That seems like a really practical approach @Lamb Chopped
IME, the liturgy is easy enough to follow, even with a priest with a difficult accent, because I know what he's supposed to be saying. Sermons are more of a challenge.
The thing about professional help is ... well, there often isn't any. Have you ever looked into the cost of accent reduction, for instance? Not to mention the difficulty of finding someone qualified to work with you on it in your area, if you're not in a major metro area. We did look into it for Mr Lamb, and had a single session (all we could afford) but at least we got the book, so we could try to move forward. And I can't imagine your Indian priests are paid scads of money.
OK this is straying way off the subject. If you want to discuss the intelligibility (or otherwise) of the person leading worship, please start a new thread.
We had a family service today, for Candlemas/Snowdrop Sunday, led by some of the children and their parents. The talk - from one of the dads - was on Snowdrops - small signs of purity, light and hope in a time of darkness.
Baptisms at our place today so a fairly standard (for us) talk on who's justified before God and who isn't, though also made clear it's not for us to judge.
Mark 1:29-39, Fifth Sunday in Ordinary Time, guest preacher. How Jesus healed the mother-in-law of Simon so she could return to her calling as home manager and host.
We had a family service today, for Candlemas/Snowdrop Sunday, led by some of the children and their parents. The talk - from one of the dads - was on Snowdrops - small signs of purity, light and hope in a time of darkness.
Mark 1:29-39, Fifth Sunday in Ordinary Time, guest preacher. How Jesus healed the mother-in-law of Simon so she could return to her calling as home manager and host.
Our sermon also dealt at some length with Simon’s mother-in-law getting up and serving, but as a different kind of calling. It was noted that forms of the Greek word used— διηκόνει/diēkonei, which is, of course, the root of our word deacon—is used only two other times in Mark: when the angels minister to/serve Jesus after his time in the wilderness and when Jesus says he came not to be served but to serve. So, it’s used by Mark to refer to the ministrations of angels, the service of Jesus and the service of Simon’s mother-in-law.
Coupled with what comes next—bringing many sick people to the house for healing—we were invited to see Simon’s mother-in-law’s service less in household, women’s roles terms, and more in terms of an outward-focused response to grace. She responded to Jesus’s healing by ministering to others.
Mark 1:29-39, Fifth Sunday in Ordinary Time, guest preacher. How Jesus healed the mother-in-law of Simon so she could return to her calling as home manager and host.
Our sermon also dealt at some length with Simon’s mother-in-law getting up and serving, but as a different kind of calling. It was noted that forms of the Greek word used— διηκόνει/diēkonei, which is, of course, the root of our word deacon—is used only two other times in Mark: when the angels minister to/serve Jesus after his time in the wilderness and when Jesus says he came not to be served but to serve. So, it’s used by Mark to refer to the ministrations of angels, the service of Jesus and the service of Simon’s mother-in-law.
Coupled with what comes next—bringing many sick people to the house for healing—we were invited to see Simon’s mother-in-law’s service less in household, women’s roles terms, and more in terms of an outward-focused response to grace. She responded to Jesus’s healing by ministering to others.
@Nick Tamen that sermon would have been much more appropriate and I like that particular reading of a calling to service. This, though, is the same preacher who once referred to Martha as the Ultimate Home Executive. Without irony.
We had a family service today, for Candlemas/Snowdrop Sunday, led by some of the children and their parents. The talk - from one of the dads - was on Snowdrops - small signs of purity, light and hope in a time of darkness.
Today's readings were about Elijah and the fiery chariot, and the Transfiguration of Jesus.
The sermon was centred on the latter and talked about moments of divine illumination in our lives, and the dilemmas of making sense and living out the implications of unexpected revelations.
Mark 1:40-45 on Jesus healing the leper. A lay Franciscan on sabbatical from Zimbabwe and I spoke about the leper colony at Mtemwa and the ministry of John Bradburne during the war years. I met John as a child and it still amazes me he is now up to be canonised as a saint. I suspect he would have hated it.
Comments
The Lord's prayer is an invitation to pray for forgiveness.
We need to be forgiving others, and God will empower us to do this
We need to forgive ourselves as well.
Our rector used Ephesians 5: 1-7 as the hook on which to hang his talk about Prayers of Love & Faith (C of E speak for same sex blessings). As expected, he took a "conservative" approach and stated that Our Place would not be offering same sex blessings. He used the Bible's "clobber verses" to justify his view and also the hate the sin, love the sinner line.
Not sure how this is going to affect the life of our church going forward.
Fasting is a spiritual discipline that releases God's power. We ought to be doing more of it! But only if our motives are right.
I wish the diocese would provide classes for these clergy to iron out the worst of their pronunciation.
But that would require thought and effort, much like giving thought to why they have such a dearth of vocations in their own diocese that they need to poach clergy from half a world away.
Have you considered watching some Bollywood films in Indian English with subtitles ? It would help you get your ear in so you can benefit from the preaching, and it would help you in making your visiting priests feel welcome and appreciated if you could converse with them effectively.
The thing is one-to-one there is no problem. But at the microphone this one gabbles and puts the stresses on the wrong parts of the sentence so the meaning gets lost. One of the others just shouts down the mike despite being asked (very nicely) several times to lower his voice. They really do need some training. Its unrealistic to expect an entire congregation to watch Bollywood movies.
It does also read as if you are lumping these folk together and not really thinking about them as individuals - I presume that is not your intention ?
Not do I accept that the Indian English intonations is somehow uniquely difficult to get your ear into - over, say, a strong Glaswegian, Tyneside or Cockney accent.
It comes out looking rather like this:
(Grace to you) (and PEACE) (from GOD our FAther) (and from the LORD JEsus CHRIST.)
It makes a huge difference in people's ability to understand the preacher, we've had many comments afterward on how clear it was.
Indian intonation is typically far faster than either, from my observations. In any case, the onus should always be on the priest, and indeed ultimately on the church, not on the congregation. It is the priest who has the resources of the institution behind him, and both sides - priest and congregation - can reasonably expect the institution to prepare him to serve the congregation.
It isn't either/or.
I think what @Lamb Chopped outlined above would be a good work around.
(*Of course they could do that then the church fund a translator - but bear in mind the translator will probably have an accent.)
IME, the liturgy is easy enough to follow, even with a priest with a difficult accent, because I know what he's supposed to be saying. Sermons are more of a challenge.
OK this is straying way off the subject. If you want to discuss the intelligibility (or otherwise) of the person leading worship, please start a new thread.
Spike
Ecclesiantics host
Don't worry about your need for food and clothes.
Don't love money.
Do keep your eyes fixed on Jesus
A riff on "Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord" in Godspell. Really was pretty good.
Our sermon also dealt at some length with Simon’s mother-in-law getting up and serving, but as a different kind of calling. It was noted that forms of the Greek word used— διηκόνει/diēkonei, which is, of course, the root of our word deacon—is used only two other times in Mark: when the angels minister to/serve Jesus after his time in the wilderness and when Jesus says he came not to be served but to serve. So, it’s used by Mark to refer to the ministrations of angels, the service of Jesus and the service of Simon’s mother-in-law.
Coupled with what comes next—bringing many sick people to the house for healing—we were invited to see Simon’s mother-in-law’s service less in household, women’s roles terms, and more in terms of an outward-focused response to grace. She responded to Jesus’s healing by ministering to others.
@Nick Tamen that sermon would have been much more appropriate and I like that particular reading of a calling to service. This, though, is the same preacher who once referred to Martha as the Ultimate Home Executive. Without irony.
A new one on me too!
The sermon was centred on the latter and talked about moments of divine illumination in our lives, and the dilemmas of making sense and living out the implications of unexpected revelations.
Don't judge.
Jesus shows us how to remove our own planks.
We still have the right to discern.