When our late father died there was a eulogy ( allowed by our mother) which was so far off the truth that the 3 of is sat through his Requiem wondering “who is this bloke they are talking about?” When Mother died 11 years later I organised a full-on sung Requiem ( at her request) but there was no eulogy ( agreement with siblings who like me eschewed bullshit).
There were a few whinges post Requiem as to why there was no eulogy especially from the older ( than us-25 years ago-generation.
I recall a funeral in The Tin Tabernacle Of My Youth, at which the saintly old lady referred to in the eulogy bore no resemblance whatever to the cantankerous old harridan who had made the lives of her husband and daughter a misery for years...
The minister was the chap in charge of the Tin Tabernacle, and he knew the old lady well, as she had been a regular (if intensely annoying) member of the congregation.
De mortuis nil nisi bonum (speak only good of the dead)
If we believe in universalism and even if we believe in nothing we want to try to believe that every human being has some redeeming features - it seems to me then good that we may try to talk about the best side of the deceased rather than the recognition of the imperfections which is sometimes and reasonably so,brought out in the prayers of the Requiem Mass.
No churches around here would have a burial in church grounds these days. Maybe some in country parishes would. Burial of ashes may still be possible, but there are very few such that I know of. Perhaps cremation followed later by scattering of the ashes at some favourite venue? The rose garden at a nearby park would be suitable for that and would be acceptable to the local council.
It has become very common for churches around here to have a columbarium and/or a scattering garden. (Our church has both.) Is that a trend happening there?
Yes it is, at least in the large metropolitan cemeteries, which in a city like Sydney are huge.
Thanks, though what I was thinking was columbaria and/or scatter gardens attached to churches or on church grounds, not at large cemeteries, since @Gee D noted that “[n]o churches around here would have a burial in church grounds these days.”
I can't think of any church near us which has either of those. St Sanity has a couple of border gardens (planted with miniature roses) which were used for the burial of ashes. They are now both fully used and a decision was made some years ago not to double-bury ashes.
To follow through and perhaps have a bit of an aside: I'd not mind if my ashes were scattered in the garden of the church at my ancestors worshipped, and where some are buried (others were buried on the property they'd owned). No space in the church grounds for any more burials and what was the garden is falling into some disrepair - not many parishioners left to carry out maintenance, and not the money to pay for more than basic work. It seems almost frivolous to spend money on my ashes. So it looks like the rose garden at the park near us (followed by coffee over the road at the cafe we go to a lot).
Funerals here typically take place within days of death, a week at most, due to the lack of refrigeration facilities. Burials are almost universal, in one of the two cemeteries that surround the ruins of mediaeval chapels. It's a determined person who insists that their remains be shipped away for cremation and returned, but sometimes if someone dies away, e.g. in hospital, a cremation, may be arranged and ashes returned. Traditionally remains coming off the boat would be met by the church elders and the wider community. Elsewhere in the Hebrides I believe tradition calls for the coffin to be passed hand to hand from the boat to the funeral.
@Gee D I think that sounds really lovely actually. For me the most important part of the funeral is how it reflects the person who is being farewelled. @Arethosemyfeet I do like the whole of community being part of the funeral and the reception of the coffin. That is something I would love for myself.
I do know of a family who had their child's ashes placed inside a cuddly teddy bear, some might find that peculiar. However when the large and very close family got together, the teddy bear would attend the gathering and often the teddy was passed around to cuddle. I think it was a very special way of honouring their child and it would not work for all families. However, for this particular family it helped with their grief and obviously others in the family were not uncomfortable and felt the same way as it was not viewed strange in any way. Their child was very much still part of their family
In recent days, I've spoken with the local council authorities. There would be no problem with simply scattering ashes as I would prefer. A memorial plaque would not be acceptable, and who could blame them? If one were allowed, before long you'd find there was little else in the park.
I agree with what Cheery Gardener says. That's a solution that works for the particular family, but may not be right for others.
It's interesting you should mention that Gee Dee - 'before long you would find little else in the park'. There's been controversy about that in Edinburgh with our beautiful cherry trees in a big city centre park.
These suggests to me that there's some kind of deep unmet need that maybe ought to be designed for in a sensitive way. Maybe instead of untrammeled development we need more parks and some could be designed with memorialisation in mind?
I also can't help thinking also of how many historic Scottish churches which are also sites of remembrance are being sold off at the moment and that maybe public money should be going into helping communities buy them and not lose those links and the spaces of remembrance round them.
These suggests to me that there's some kind of deep unmet need that maybe ought to be designed for in a sensitive way. Maybe instead of untrammeled development we need more parks and some could be designed with memorialisation in mind?
"Natural" cemeteries exist, and come in a number of different varieties.
With regard to the complaints in your first article about parks turning in to mausoleums, I'm generally comfortable with discreet memorial plaques scattered just about anywhere in buildings, parks, and other man-made places. The behaviour that I personally find problematic is the habit of bereaved relatives strapping floral tributes to any convenient location, and I have the same opinion on people who leave their random memorial litter up mountains, or at other sites of natural beauty.
You find bereaved relatives saying things like "my Freddy loved this particular beauty spot, and I don't see why anyone should stop me from remembering him here".
Nobody is stopping you from doing that. You can go to the beauty spot and remember Freddy all you like. But leaving some random pile of crap at the beauty spot to "remember Freddy" is just selfish.
The "litter" aspect can also affect established graveyards. There's an ongoing debate about people leaving teddies, toys, solar lights etc etc on the graves of children.
I can understand the urge, and if the family are maintaining the grave regularly, and keeping it tidy, it's moving. But a dirty, soggy, bedraggled teddy, a rusty toy car and a faded, cracked plastic toy not only looks messy and spoils the look of the graveyard generally, it gives an "unloved, uncared-for" look to the child's grave which must be the opposite of what the family intended when they left the stuff there.
I wish people would think "What will this stuffed rabbit look like after 4 months of being left out in the rain / wind / snow?
The "litter" aspect can also affect established graveyards. There's an ongoing debate about people leaving teddies, toys, solar lights etc etc on the graves of children.
I can understand the urge, and if the family are maintaining the grave regularly, and keeping it tidy, it's moving. But a dirty, soggy, bedraggled teddy, a rusty toy car and a faded, cracked plastic toy not only looks messy and spoils the look of the graveyard generally, it gives an "unloved, uncared-for" look to the child's grave which must be the opposite of what the family intended when they left the stuff there.
I wish people would think "What will this stuffed rabbit look like after 4 months of being left out in the rain / wind / snow?
That's a degree of rational thinking that it might not be reasonable to expect of someone experiencing this sort of depth of grief.
Indeed. But I am speaking as someone who has a baby buried in the stillbirth section of a large municipal cemetery, and I'd rather his section of the cemetery didn't look like as though someone had strewn the left overs of a jumble sale over it.
That said, I do recognise that stuff has meaning for people. If I find something on David's grave (most recently a broken windmill) which has clearly blown there from an unknown grave elsewhere in the row, I would never bin it, but always put it onto some other grave where the actual owner can retrieve it.
There's one grave, always immaculately maintained, on which for years Baby C's parents / grandparents put stuff appropriate to whatever age he would have been had he lived. He'd have been a sporty kid, played football, would have supported Aberdeen. He'd have liked trucks and trains and eventually sportscars. But now they just leave flowers. I've found the fading away of the objects as it, presumably, got harder and harder for his parents to imagine what he'd have been like at 16, or 19, or 22, quite poignant.
Our local municipal cemetery has a number of graves similar to that which @North East Quine describes - I used to see them regularly from the top deck of a bus! - but I think the staff must be quite good (and discreet) at keeping the place looking reasonably tidy, although families are often to be seen tending graves as well.
Before May 2016, I lived in the Black Country. With a few exceptions, my friends and old work colleagues also did. I used to go to about one funeral a month because we were of a certain age. Since we moved to Sheffield I have not attended any funerals and I have not attended any social events. The only contact I have is on Facebook.
I am expecting a very small service in the local Crem, which is actually very nice, but I am not expecting anyone from the Black Country to attend. They will know about it though.
It's none of my business, of course, but that sounds desperately sad.
You deserve a Black Country 'send-off' or a coach load heading to Sheffield and faggots and peas at the wake.
A nice thought but If I can't travel to their funerals, I can't expect them to come to mine.
One of the problems associated with increasing age (and perhaps infirmity)! Mind you, I was surprised at the number of My Old Dad's former factory workmates turned up to see him off, given the fact that he'd retired some eight years previously...
With most funerals being held on a weekday, it's often difficult for the hale and hearty to attend, if they happen to be working, and can't get the time off
I am a life member of the National association of retired Police Officers( NARPO), Wolverhampton Branch. I got the award for 20 years committee service and it saves me about £30 a year. We have regular events but I haven't been to any for 8 years. We do have a thriving site on Face book and we get to learn about anyone who has died. We have a rule that we cannot speak ill of the dead.
We have an annual newsletter. Today I waas reminded that 9 members had died in ther past 12 month but 20 had joined. I did not recognise any of the names of those joining.
Very many of those I served with are dead.
Serving officers who die, particularly those
who die due to violent circumstances get a big turn out from their current and past colleagues. They get a Union Flag on their coffins. Narpo members get our special custom made drape.
One thing that's just come to me this morning is notifying the people who are important in our lives. I have in hand a list of my Aunt's closest friends. All of them are people I've not seen for probably 40 years and some I've never met. I know this list will come in handy when the time comes as she has no children and the job will fall to me.
My thinking about this was prompted by a friend of my mother in law dying last week. My MIL in 93 at the end of the year and her friend 90, they've been friends for 70 years. The friend's husband is 94. Every morning I look at 3 newspapers and happened to see the death notice of MIL's friend. I mentioned it to my husband that I thought it funny that MIL had not phoned us to let us know. After a day or so, I asked husband to phone his mother, just to check that she knew.
We later found out that the friend's husband had been trying to ring her for days, MIL thinks he has not written her phone number down correctly and thus was not getting through. She will be able to attend the livestream of the service today and was very grateful we made the effort to phone her.
It made me think I should make a list similar that of my Aunt, so that people who need to know will find out. Of course this will require maintenance, but I know I can't rely on the kids to look around for my Christmas card book and then try to make contact when so many people only have mobile phones and landlines no longer. I wondered whether others had made similar plans for when it's needed?
Comments
When our late father died there was a eulogy ( allowed by our mother) which was so far off the truth that the 3 of is sat through his Requiem wondering “who is this bloke they are talking about?” When Mother died 11 years later I organised a full-on sung Requiem ( at her request) but there was no eulogy ( agreement with siblings who like me eschewed bullshit).
There were a few whinges post Requiem as to why there was no eulogy especially from the older ( than us-25 years ago-generation.
I’ve done one under duress and never again.
The minister was the chap in charge of the Tin Tabernacle, and he knew the old lady well, as she had been a regular (if intensely annoying) member of the congregation.
If we believe in universalism and even if we believe in nothing we want to try to believe that every human being has some redeeming features - it seems to me then good that we may try to talk about the best side of the deceased rather than the recognition of the imperfections which is sometimes and reasonably so,brought out in the prayers of the Requiem Mass.
To follow through and perhaps have a bit of an aside: I'd not mind if my ashes were scattered in the garden of the church at my ancestors worshipped, and where some are buried (others were buried on the property they'd owned). No space in the church grounds for any more burials and what was the garden is falling into some disrepair - not many parishioners left to carry out maintenance, and not the money to pay for more than basic work. It seems almost frivolous to spend money on my ashes. So it looks like the rose garden at the park near us (followed by coffee over the road at the cafe we go to a lot).
I do know of a family who had their child's ashes placed inside a cuddly teddy bear, some might find that peculiar. However when the large and very close family got together, the teddy bear would attend the gathering and often the teddy was passed around to cuddle. I think it was a very special way of honouring their child and it would not work for all families. However, for this particular family it helped with their grief and obviously others in the family were not uncomfortable and felt the same way as it was not viewed strange in any way. Their child was very much still part of their family
I agree with what Cheery Gardener says. That's a solution that works for the particular family, but may not be right for others.
Tree memorials turning historic Edinburgh parks into 'graveyards
And it reminds me of the discussions about memorial cairns in the mountains
Mountain memorial storm gathers
:Mountaineering groups are calling for a debate over whether memorials should be placed at popular beauty spots
These suggests to me that there's some kind of deep unmet need that maybe ought to be designed for in a sensitive way. Maybe instead of untrammeled development we need more parks and some could be designed with memorialisation in mind?
I also can't help thinking also of how many historic Scottish churches which are also sites of remembrance are being sold off at the moment and that maybe public money should be going into helping communities buy them and not lose those links and the spaces of remembrance round them.
"Natural" cemeteries exist, and come in a number of different varieties.
With regard to the complaints in your first article about parks turning in to mausoleums, I'm generally comfortable with discreet memorial plaques scattered just about anywhere in buildings, parks, and other man-made places. The behaviour that I personally find problematic is the habit of bereaved relatives strapping floral tributes to any convenient location, and I have the same opinion on people who leave their random memorial litter up mountains, or at other sites of natural beauty.
You find bereaved relatives saying things like "my Freddy loved this particular beauty spot, and I don't see why anyone should stop me from remembering him here".
Nobody is stopping you from doing that. You can go to the beauty spot and remember Freddy all you like. But leaving some random pile of crap at the beauty spot to "remember Freddy" is just selfish.
I can understand the urge, and if the family are maintaining the grave regularly, and keeping it tidy, it's moving. But a dirty, soggy, bedraggled teddy, a rusty toy car and a faded, cracked plastic toy not only looks messy and spoils the look of the graveyard generally, it gives an "unloved, uncared-for" look to the child's grave which must be the opposite of what the family intended when they left the stuff there.
I wish people would think "What will this stuffed rabbit look like after 4 months of being left out in the rain / wind / snow?
That's a degree of rational thinking that it might not be reasonable to expect of someone experiencing this sort of depth of grief.
That said, I do recognise that stuff has meaning for people. If I find something on David's grave (most recently a broken windmill) which has clearly blown there from an unknown grave elsewhere in the row, I would never bin it, but always put it onto some other grave where the actual owner can retrieve it.
There's one grave, always immaculately maintained, on which for years Baby C's parents / grandparents put stuff appropriate to whatever age he would have been had he lived. He'd have been a sporty kid, played football, would have supported Aberdeen. He'd have liked trucks and trains and eventually sportscars. But now they just leave flowers. I've found the fading away of the objects as it, presumably, got harder and harder for his parents to imagine what he'd have been like at 16, or 19, or 22, quite poignant.
I am a life member of the National association of retired Police Officers( NARPO), Wolverhampton Branch. I got the award for 20 years committee service and it saves me about £30 a year. We have regular events but I haven't been to any for 8 years. We do have a thriving site on Face book and we get to learn about anyone who has died. We have a rule that we cannot speak ill of the dead.
We have an annual newsletter. Today I waas reminded that 9 members had died in ther past 12 month but 20 had joined. I did not recognise any of the names of those joining.
Very many of those I served with are dead.
Serving officers who die, particularly those
who die due to violent circumstances get a big turn out from their current and past colleagues. They get a Union Flag on their coffins. Narpo members get our special custom made drape.
These funerals are for those left behind
My thinking about this was prompted by a friend of my mother in law dying last week. My MIL in 93 at the end of the year and her friend 90, they've been friends for 70 years. The friend's husband is 94. Every morning I look at 3 newspapers and happened to see the death notice of MIL's friend. I mentioned it to my husband that I thought it funny that MIL had not phoned us to let us know. After a day or so, I asked husband to phone his mother, just to check that she knew.
We later found out that the friend's husband had been trying to ring her for days, MIL thinks he has not written her phone number down correctly and thus was not getting through. She will be able to attend the livestream of the service today and was very grateful we made the effort to phone her.
It made me think I should make a list similar that of my Aunt, so that people who need to know will find out. Of course this will require maintenance, but I know I can't rely on the kids to look around for my Christmas card book and then try to make contact when so many people only have mobile phones and landlines no longer. I wondered whether others had made similar plans for when it's needed?