Empirical Evidence

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  • "Things that are just in the world", I can just comment that in Buddhism, this isn't correct. I had a meditation teacher who used to grab her sweater and shout at us, "whats this stuff?" She certainly didn't think it was just in the world. In Zen, neither I nor the world exist.
  • Indeed, Zen Buddhism has a metaphysic and ontology that is quite incompatible with much Western thought, virtually all of it, really.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited March 2024
    In one sense I agree with you, since the things that are in the world simply are in the world, full stop. Questioning the phenomena themselves is pointless; they simply are and present a fullness of being. On the other hand, if one understands a why-question to be a shorthand form for asking after the causal chain that led to the particular instantiation of the phenomena, then I disagree with you because one can ask 'why?' about a fork and get a large explanation about the causal chain that led to the crafting of the fork and how that fork got to you in such a way that you're able to ask why about it.

    What's the difference?
  • Well for one the major current of Western thought assumes that mind-independent objects exist and it also assumes that the self exists. Buddhist logic is largely more understanding about contradictions, while for the majority of its existence, Western logic has abhorred a contradiction, although dialetheism offers a different perspective on contradictions in particular instances. There's many more differences. Lots of work has been done on this.
  • Indeed, Zen Buddhism has a metaphysic and ontology that is quite incompatible with much Western thought, virtually all of it, really.

    At the same time, it is contradictory. Of course her sweater exists!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Kendel wrote: »
    That's not to say you won't find Orthodox who aren't 'damnationists' as you'd put it but I can't say I've found a big emphasis on it. Nor, these days, with a few exceptions, have I come across many evangelical or other Protestants tub-thumping about it either. That isn't to say it's not out there but it certainly doesn't seem fashionable.

    @Gamma Gamaliel Among protestants in the US, I think it is the norm. Mainline ("liberal") protestant churches are dying here, at least according to statistical reports. The churches that are thriving or growing fall under the "evangelical" (whatever that means anymore - John Piper to Benny Hinn) umbrella preach eternal judgement. Hell fire is not the main sermon topic, but it is in the doctrinal statements.

    Evangelical Churches worldwide are growing, but I think the trend is reversing itself in the US. The median age for white Evangelicals is around 56, while the median age for Universalists is 53. White mainline protestants are 50. This will mean Evangelicals will be dying off at a faster rate shortly. Source PRRI

    Just to show how statistics can be deceiving.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Kendel wrote: »
    That's not to say you won't find Orthodox who aren't 'damnationists' as you'd put it but I can't say I've found a big emphasis on it. Nor, these days, with a few exceptions, have I come across many evangelical or other Protestants tub-thumping about it either. That isn't to say it's not out there but it certainly doesn't seem fashionable.

    @Gamma Gamaliel Among protestants in the US, I think it is the norm. Mainline ("liberal") protestant churches are dying here, at least according to statistical reports. The churches that are thriving or growing fall under the "evangelical" (whatever that means anymore - John Piper to Benny Hinn) umbrella preach eternal judgement. Hell fire is not the main sermon topic, but it is in the doctrinal statements.

    Evangelical Churches worldwide are growing, but I think the trend is reversing itself in the US. The median age for white Evangelicals is around 56, while the median age for Universalists is 53. White mainline protestants are 50. This will mean Evangelicals will be dying off at a faster rate shortly. Source PRRI

    Just to show how statistics can be deceiving.

    It's a function of economic development.
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