Some good views of the new liturgical furniture and vestments at Notre-Dame de Paris are to be had on the YouTube video of this morning's Mass (Donald Trump was not present at this service):
Fast-forward where necessary... Some close-ups of the altar, and the new silver (?) thurible are at about 1 hour 25 minutes in, with a close-up of the tabernacle towards the end of the service.
The Scripture Readings were those of the Second Sunday of Advent and the prayers of the Mass were those for the Consecration of an altar which is something which one rarely experiences.
Although it is the 8th December an Advent Sunday takes precedence over the Immaculate Conception normally celebrated today and the reason for the first Mass in the cathedral today.
There must be something very special about this cathedral as I cannot imagine any other church building attracting such an international crowd.
Beside the archbishop at the celebration of the eucharist was a Maronite patriarch and Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York. I thought that the cardinal might have said part of the eucharistic prayer either in French, Latin or English but he remained silent.
This evening's Mass was that for Advent 2, though they kept the multi-coloured festal vestments used this morning. No purple, as far as I could see.
What did you think of the new minimalist thurible? To me, born and brought up in Kent, where there are many cherry orchards, it looked like a large silver cherry, complete with a long strig (local word for stalk)!
Swedish Lutherans sported some nice blue vestments today, in Uppsala and Skara Cathedrals, and in the lovely little modern church of Sankt Ansgar, Uppsala.
I didn't like the thurible at all and didn't particularly like the archbishop's cope on Saturday, but hey these were minor points in what was a wonderful liturgy and I thought that the archbishop was very dignified.
Although I did not notice him the commentator said that Archbishop emeritus Cardinal André Vingt-trois was present among the bishops. When he was in office he used to celebrate the 18.30 Sunday Mass almost every Sunday and broadcast by KTO
Our baptismal font is at the entrance to the sanctuary, but it can be seen from nearly every seat in the sanctuary since our sanctuary is in the round.
I would say recent Lutheran architecture design prefers the baptistry to be near the entrance of the sanctuary. However, as Nick pointed out, there is still a strong desire among the lay people to keep the font near the altar emphasizing the centrality of Word and Sacrament.
Assuming that you are using the word 'sanctuary' to mean the main body of the church where worship is held, it was one of the recommendations of Vatican2 that baptismal font and altar should be in close proximity to one another to emphasize ,as Gramps said, 'the centrality of Word and the two major Sacraments.'
Lately I have noticed that there is a 'new' trend in the RC Church to have the baptismal font,once again at the entrance to the church.
I can see the logic in either arrangement. What I personally don't like is the font tucked away in a corner (as at Our Place) or in a separate - and possibly cramped - baptistry at one side of the church.
I suppose such arrangements were OK in the days when maybe only the child(ren), parents, and godparents, were at the baptism service, but having the font in a prominent position near the entrance, in the body of the church, or near the altar, seems to emphasise the importance and significance of the service.
At St Batsinthebelfry, the font is just inside the tower arch, so it sits between the ropes of the second and third bells, to the confusion of visiting ringers. Given its age (it's shaped rather like a flower pot, which apparently suggests circa 1050-1100) and the several decorative schemes carved into it that do or don't go all the way round, it's obviously been moved several times before it reached is present location.
At St Batsinthebelfry, the font is just inside the tower arch, so it sits between the ropes of the second and third bells, to the confusion of visiting ringers. Given its age (it's shaped rather like a flower pot, which apparently suggests circa 1050-1100) and the several decorative schemes carved into it that do or don't go all the way round, it's obviously been moved several times before it reached is present location.
Yes, there are quite a few peripatetic fonts, often in churches which are much younger than they are IYSWIM.
Yours sounds as if it's a bit awkward to use - could it not perhaps be moved again, into the body of the church?
TBH we like it where it is, you can stow stuff on it when you are ringing - Christmas menus, hats, copies of the Ringing World, the numbers for chiming "Twinkle Twinkle little star" for Carols for Kids...
And yes it's the oldest bit of the church, all but the tower having been rebuilt in the 1860s.
I suppose such arrangements were OK in the days when maybe only the child(ren), parents, and godparents, were at the baptism service, but having the font in a prominent position near the entrance, in the body of the church, or near the altar, seems to emphasise the importance and significance of the service.
In a former parish, the font had been moved to the front, near but not adjacent to the altar. It was surrounded by ordinary seating so it looked out of place. I had it moved back to (more or less) its original position at the west end of the nave. It makes sense as (a) most people walk past it on their way in, and (b) there was plenty of space around it for the baptismal party and others to gather. I've never understood the argument that placing it at the front makes it easier for people to participate in the service. People aren't nailed to the pews and it is a good idea to move around during the liturgy especially for an event as significant as a baptism.
I think I might have said that, at Our Place, the first part of the service takes place at the front of the nave, and then the candidate(s), parents, godparents, and as many others as possible, gather around the font for the baptism and the giving of the candle (lit from the adjacent Paschal Candle).
There isn't a great deal of space, however, so it all gets a bit chaotic and untidy - not that that's necessarily a Bad Thing!
The layout of the chancel doesn't really allow for even a portable font to be placed conveniently at the front of the church. Ideally, in our case, the massive and heavy font should be moved to the west end of the central nave aisle, but that would involve a lot of unjustifiable expense.
TBH we like it where it is, you can stow stuff on it when you are ringing - Christmas menus, hats, copies of the Ringing World, the numbers for chiming "Twinkle Twinkle little star" for Carols for Kids...
And yes it's the oldest bit of the church, all but the tower having been rebuilt in the 1860s.
Ha! You remind me of a minister I once worked with (known to all but himself as The Fat Controller) who used to get very exercised about the uses the font was put to and would below at the flower women that “This font is NOT a flower stand.”
We have a monstrance that someone dropped years ago and bent the main "stem" or whatever its called. It has never been put right or replaced.
maybe thats why we never have benediction or exposition.
Its just occurred to me that we don't have a single cope either. I wonder if that is unique in an RC parish.
Among the many celebrations taking place in the cathedral of Paris this morning's Mass was for the blessing of the baptismal font.
It has been placed at the main door of the cathedral and all who enter will be reminded either of their own baptism or just possibly an awakening of a wish to be baptised.
The altar is of the same style as the font and the two can be seen clearly as 'together' even although they are physically separated by the nave of the church.
Those invited to the church this morning were members of various movements of consecrated life either, as the archbishop reminded us, by formal vows of consecration or by more intimate vows to try one's best to live out the Christian life begun at baptism.
TBH we like it where it is, you can stow stuff on it when you are ringing - Christmas menus, hats, copies of the Ringing World, the numbers for chiming "Twinkle Twinkle little star" for Carols for Kids...
And yes it's the oldest bit of the church, all but the tower having been rebuilt in the 1860s.
Ha! You remind me of a minister I once worked with (known to all but himself as The Fat Controller) who used to get very exercised about the uses the font was put to and would below at the flower women that “This font is NOT a flower stand.”
Although I wouldn't use the phrase 'Church Tat' there was a very moving ceremony this afternoon returning to the cathedral of Notre Dame the relics which some believe to be the Crown of Thorns (originally accommodated in the now deconsecrated Sainte Chapelle).
The relics were brought to the cathedral by the Chevaliers du Saint Sépulchre and after the reading of the Passion of Christ there were installed in a giant monstrance like reliquary.
In the past they were usually on view on Friday afternoons ,but I don't know what will happen now in the new dispensation.
This has been a busy week for the archbishop and also I notice for the same young man who holds open the book for the bishop to read from. It is amazing that he always seems to find the right page.
AIUI, there are some Anglican churches which possess relics, but I'm not quite sure how technically lawful that might be. I don't know of any in this area, but there may be one or two with a relic in their main altar - am I right in thinking that's standard RC practice?
I once attended the Patronal Festival Mass at a church in NW London, which had acquired (or borrowed) a relic of its patron saint, one of the four Evangelists. The relic, in what I believe is termed an ostensorium, was duly carried in procession around the streets, accompanied by the parish priest (armed with a powerful megaphone) leading the chanting of The Litany Of The Saints.
BTW, the church was packed, and the preacher was the then local suffragan bishop, a notable Evangelical.
Yes RC churches may have relics embedded in their altar. But it isn't compulsory. They have to be authenticated and a recognisable bit of bone/posession etc, not a bit of dust from near a grave. Since saints are still being declared, these relics might be quite modern.
Pictures here https://churchantiques.com/product-tag/altar-stone/
I suppose the idea is that it links the people of Our Lady of the Gasworks with the universal church ,,,,,,,, but it is up there for me with devotion to Jesus' body parts as being odd.
Not sure if BF was talking about relics embedded in the altar of a RC church, which goes back to the tradition of celebrating the eucharist on the graves of the martyrs.
(those in the newly consecrated altar of Notre Dame include St Catherine Labouré, St Charles de Foucauld as well as a modern Russian or Romanian martyr. )
What may have been the Crown of Thorns is there for veneration and whether it may or may not have been the actual Crown of Thorns it is ,for some people, a powerful symbol and link down the centuries with the death and Resurrection of Christ.
AIUI, there are some Anglican churches which possess relics, but I'm not quite sure how technically lawful that might be. I don't know of any in this area, but there may be one or two with a relic in their main altar - am I right in thinking that's standard RC practice?.
Anything goes in the modern C of E! I've never really seen the point of relics, but to balance the predominant lack of mystery in much contemporary Anglican worship I think they might have a place. Our church (CofE) has a stone high altar, and a nave altar with an embedded altar stone, either or both of which may contain relics but I honestly don't know. Also, somehow or other, we have acquired a chalice veil which allegedly belonged to St Francis de Sales. I don't know how we managed to do that!
If your nave altar is basically of wood but dates from before Vatican 2 it would have in the middle a small altar stone with 5 crosses incised upon it. The stone would be big enough to place the chalice and paten on it and would fulfil the standard requirements of celebrating the eucharist on a stone altar. All that is assuming that your CofE church was wishing to follow what was then standard RC practice.
The high Kirk of Edinburgh (St Giles) had until the 1970s a very un Presbyterian looking Communion table (just like an altar table with five crosses incised in the middle and at the four corners. None of the guides of the cathedral whom I have asked have been able to explain what they are. The table in question is now ion a side aisle and has been replaced by a central Communion table made of marble but,at least as far as I can see with no crosses incised upon it.
Regarding a different sort of tat liturgical item, did anyone attend a service yesterday where rose-pink vestments were used?
Our Place has a nice dusky rose-pink chasuble and stole, a gift from a former neighbouring incumbent when he crossed the Tiber in 1992 (they were his own personal property, and were probably made in around 1980).
They come out twice a year - Lent 4 and Advent 3.
Trundling round the internet yesterday, I noticed rose-pink (of a similar shade to ours) in use at A Certain SEC Place in Edinburgh, and at Uppsala Cathedral (Lutheran) in Sweden. Their chasuble is of a much lighter colour, and they have matching stoles for the two clergy assisting the celebrant.
After, or rather before the ceremonies in Notre Dame in Paris there was the same ceremony in a much simpler format in the newly renovated St Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin. ' Altarweihe in der St Hedwigs Kathedrale Berlin' will give you the ceremony.
Of course everything is in German but the text is shown for everything (even although as is often the case in these subtitles that words are spelled wrongly or may sometimes not make sense.
It is about the 55th minute of the recording of the whole Mass that the altar consecration takes place with the placing of a relic of St Hedwig in the centre of the new altar, which is itself made up of stones from all over the archdiocese of Berlin, including stones from the Berlin Wall.
Quite impressive chandeliers, among other features, in that beautiful cathedral.
Thank you for both. As it's gone 1am and I don't seem to be able to sleep I may enjoy the Swedish language of some of my ancestors and watch the entire service.
Some are distinctly vomit-inducing (All Saints, Margaret Street, London - I'm looking at you!).
AIUI, Rome does not permit them, and I suspect they go back to *Sarum Use* at least in the UK.
From the General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM)
"Rose may be used, where it is the practice, on Gaudete Sunday (Third Sunday of Advent) and on Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent)."
AIUI, Rome does not permit [rose vestments], and I suspect they go back to *Sarum Use* at least in the UK.
Yes, Rome does permit them, @Alan29 notes. A picture of Pope Benedict wearing a rose chasuble can be seen here.
And no, rose vestments do not go back to Sarum Use in the UK. The Sarum Use colors (assuming all colors were available to a parish, which wasn’t always the case) were:
Red—every Sunday of the Year except in Lent, Passion & Palm Sundays, Good Friday, Martyrs White—the Blessed Virgin (but not saints who weren’t martyrs) Blue—St Michael Yellow & Green—Confessors Lenten Array (unbleached linen or sack cloth with red and black decorations—Lent Black—Requiems, Advent and (later) Lent
Black eventually came to be used in Lent rather than unbleached linen. A dark indigo was sometimes used in Advent. Black, purple and (dark) blue were seen as equivalent colors.
The light-to-medium blue often seen now in Advent does not derive from the Sarum Use, popular explanations notwithstanding.
Our Place's so-called Sarum Blue chasuble is indeed a dark blue. I think I may have said that it's a bit frail now, but it does get at least one outing during Advent.
Our Place's so-called Sarum Blue chasuble is indeed a dark blue. I think I may have said that it's a bit frail now, but it does get at least one outing during Advent.
I’ve heard it said—sorry, I don’t remember where—that if blue is going to be used in Advent, it should be the dark blue of the night sky just before dawn.
My experience is that blue rather than violet/purple seems to be the Advent norm in (American) Lutheran and United Methodist churches, is often but not always seen in Episcopal churches, and is occasionally seen in Presbyterian churches. (I’m not sure why we Presbys seem more likely to stick with purple. At our place, we use purple with touches of blue.)
It always amuses me slightly when those churches that use blue have blue candles in the Advent wreath for Advent I, II and IV, but a rose candle for Advent III. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone use a lighter shade of blue for that Sunday, which would make more sense to me.
Blue is associated with BVM in RC places. Generally on the decoration, not the whole garment though there are shrines where all blue is permitted, apparently. Either way nowt to do with penitential seasons.
Incidentally in cultures where white is used for mourning they can use another colour for Easter etc.
We've got rose, but it's more of a salmon hue than Pepto-Bismol pink. The orphreys are a pleasing dusty green that reminds me of dill, which goes well with salmon.
All our vestments are modern, bland and made out of fairly lightweight stuff. We don't really go in for elaborate or fancy gear anywhere, though the actual building is Grade 2* listed and has some fine features.
I have to come back yet again to the video of 'Altarweihe in der St Hedwigs Kathedrale,Berlin 'with Domradio.de. I had only watched the actual consecration of the altar but later on, at about 1.50 minutes in ,one of the co consecrators was introduced namely the Archbishop of Vilnius in Lithuania. The Berlin bishop spoke to him in English and excitedly pointed out to him the amber stone from Lithuania which was one of the stones in this new altar. The Lithuanian bishop was born and brought up in the USA and he gave an short speech in American English. The computer generated subtitles were however really unable to cope and only a few individual words appeared on the screen .
The consecration of the altar took place on All Saints' Day ,250 years after the original dedication and the Solemn Re-opening for public worship took place on the Feast day of Christ the King.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16VIzblgi1s
Fast-forward where necessary... Some close-ups of the altar, and the new silver (?) thurible are at about 1 hour 25 minutes in, with a close-up of the tabernacle towards the end of the service.
Although it is the 8th December an Advent Sunday takes precedence over the Immaculate Conception normally celebrated today and the reason for the first Mass in the cathedral today.
There must be something very special about this cathedral as I cannot imagine any other church building attracting such an international crowd.
Beside the archbishop at the celebration of the eucharist was a Maronite patriarch and Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York. I thought that the cardinal might have said part of the eucharistic prayer either in French, Latin or English but he remained silent.
What did you think of the new minimalist thurible? To me, born and brought up in Kent, where there are many cherry orchards, it looked like a large silver cherry, complete with a long strig (local word for stalk)!
Swedish Lutherans sported some nice blue vestments today, in Uppsala and Skara Cathedrals, and in the lovely little modern church of Sankt Ansgar, Uppsala.
Although I did not notice him the commentator said that Archbishop emeritus Cardinal André Vingt-trois was present among the bishops. When he was in office he used to celebrate the 18.30 Sunday Mass almost every Sunday and broadcast by KTO
I would say recent Lutheran architecture design prefers the baptistry to be near the entrance of the sanctuary. However, as Nick pointed out, there is still a strong desire among the lay people to keep the font near the altar emphasizing the centrality of Word and Sacrament.
Lately I have noticed that there is a 'new' trend in the RC Church to have the baptismal font,once again at the entrance to the church.
I suppose such arrangements were OK in the days when maybe only the child(ren), parents, and godparents, were at the baptism service, but having the font in a prominent position near the entrance, in the body of the church, or near the altar, seems to emphasise the importance and significance of the service.
Yes, there are quite a few peripatetic fonts, often in churches which are much younger than they are IYSWIM.
Yours sounds as if it's a bit awkward to use - could it not perhaps be moved again, into the body of the church?
And yes it's the oldest bit of the church, all but the tower having been rebuilt in the 1860s.
In a former parish, the font had been moved to the front, near but not adjacent to the altar. It was surrounded by ordinary seating so it looked out of place. I had it moved back to (more or less) its original position at the west end of the nave. It makes sense as (a) most people walk past it on their way in, and (b) there was plenty of space around it for the baptismal party and others to gather. I've never understood the argument that placing it at the front makes it easier for people to participate in the service. People aren't nailed to the pews and it is a good idea to move around during the liturgy especially for an event as significant as a baptism.
I think I might have said that, at Our Place, the first part of the service takes place at the front of the nave, and then the candidate(s), parents, godparents, and as many others as possible, gather around the font for the baptism and the giving of the candle (lit from the adjacent Paschal Candle).
There isn't a great deal of space, however, so it all gets a bit chaotic and untidy - not that that's necessarily a Bad Thing!
The layout of the chancel doesn't really allow for even a portable font to be placed conveniently at the front of the church. Ideally, in our case, the massive and heavy font should be moved to the west end of the central nave aisle, but that would involve a lot of unjustifiable expense.
Ha! You remind me of a minister I once worked with (known to all but himself as The Fat Controller) who used to get very exercised about the uses the font was put to and would below at the flower women that “This font is NOT a flower stand.”
maybe thats why we never have benediction or exposition.
Its just occurred to me that we don't have a single cope either. I wonder if that is unique in an RC parish.
It has been placed at the main door of the cathedral and all who enter will be reminded either of their own baptism or just possibly an awakening of a wish to be baptised.
The altar is of the same style as the font and the two can be seen clearly as 'together' even although they are physically separated by the nave of the church.
Those invited to the church this morning were members of various movements of consecrated life either, as the archbishop reminded us, by formal vows of consecration or by more intimate vows to try one's best to live out the Christian life begun at baptism.
Thanks, @Cathscats , that got a smirk from me!
The relics were brought to the cathedral by the Chevaliers du Saint Sépulchre and after the reading of the Passion of Christ there were installed in a giant monstrance like reliquary.
In the past they were usually on view on Friday afternoons ,but I don't know what will happen now in the new dispensation.
This has been a busy week for the archbishop and also I notice for the same young man who holds open the book for the bishop to read from. It is amazing that he always seems to find the right page.
I once attended the Patronal Festival Mass at a church in NW London, which had acquired (or borrowed) a relic of its patron saint, one of the four Evangelists. The relic, in what I believe is termed an ostensorium, was duly carried in procession around the streets, accompanied by the parish priest (armed with a powerful megaphone) leading the chanting of The Litany Of The Saints.
BTW, the church was packed, and the preacher was the then local suffragan bishop, a notable Evangelical.
Pictures here
https://churchantiques.com/product-tag/altar-stone/
I suppose the idea is that it links the people of Our Lady of the Gasworks with the universal church ,,,,,,,, but it is up there for me with devotion to Jesus' body parts as being odd.
(those in the newly consecrated altar of Notre Dame include St Catherine Labouré, St Charles de Foucauld as well as a modern Russian or Romanian martyr. )
What may have been the Crown of Thorns is there for veneration and whether it may or may not have been the actual Crown of Thorns it is ,for some people, a powerful symbol and link down the centuries with the death and Resurrection of Christ.
Anything goes in the modern C of E! I've never really seen the point of relics, but to balance the predominant lack of mystery in much contemporary Anglican worship I think they might have a place. Our church (CofE) has a stone high altar, and a nave altar with an embedded altar stone, either or both of which may contain relics but I honestly don't know. Also, somehow or other, we have acquired a chalice veil which allegedly belonged to St Francis de Sales. I don't know how we managed to do that!
The high Kirk of Edinburgh (St Giles) had until the 1970s a very un Presbyterian looking Communion table (just like an altar table with five crosses incised in the middle and at the four corners. None of the guides of the cathedral whom I have asked have been able to explain what they are. The table in question is now ion a side aisle and has been replaced by a central Communion table made of marble but,at least as far as I can see with no crosses incised upon it.
Our Place has a nice dusky rose-pink chasuble and stole, a gift from a former neighbouring incumbent when he crossed the Tiber in 1992 (they were his own personal property, and were probably made in around 1980).
They come out twice a year - Lent 4 and Advent 3.
Trundling round the internet yesterday, I noticed rose-pink (of a similar shade to ours) in use at A Certain SEC Place in Edinburgh, and at Uppsala Cathedral (Lutheran) in Sweden. Their chasuble is of a much lighter colour, and they have matching stoles for the two clergy assisting the celebrant.
Evangelical vicar, in want
of a portable, second-hand font,
would dispose, for the same,
of a portrait, in frame,
of the Bishop, elect, of Vermont.
Some are distinctly vomit-inducing (All Saints, Margaret Street, London - I'm looking at you!).
AIUI, Rome does not permit them, and I suspect they go back to *Sarum Use* at least in the UK.
Of course everything is in German but the text is shown for everything (even although as is often the case in these subtitles that words are spelled wrongly or may sometimes not make sense.
It is about the 55th minute of the recording of the whole Mass that the altar consecration takes place with the placing of a relic of St Hedwig in the centre of the new altar, which is itself made up of stones from all over the archdiocese of Berlin, including stones from the Berlin Wall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su3GqjmdcZY&t=773s
And here's a view of the vestments used in Uppsala Cathedral:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JMgcEbK43k
Again, fast-forward to about 12 minutes in.
Thank you for both. As it's gone 1am and I don't seem to be able to sleep I may enjoy the Swedish language of some of my ancestors and watch the entire service.
From the General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM)
"Rose may be used, where it is the practice, on Gaudete Sunday (Third Sunday of Advent) and on Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent)."
And no, rose vestments do not go back to Sarum Use in the UK. The Sarum Use colors (assuming all colors were available to a parish, which wasn’t always the case) were:
Red—every Sunday of the Year except in Lent, Passion & Palm Sundays, Good Friday, Martyrs
White—the Blessed Virgin (but not saints who weren’t martyrs)
Blue—St Michael
Yellow & Green—Confessors
Lenten Array (unbleached linen or sack cloth with red and black decorations—Lent
Black—Requiems, Advent and (later) Lent
Black eventually came to be used in Lent rather than unbleached linen. A dark indigo was sometimes used in Advent. Black, purple and (dark) blue were seen as equivalent colors.
The light-to-medium blue often seen now in Advent does not derive from the Sarum Use, popular explanations notwithstanding.
Our Place's so-called Sarum Blue chasuble is indeed a dark blue. I think I may have said that it's a bit frail now, but it does get at least one outing during Advent.
My experience is that blue rather than violet/purple seems to be the Advent norm in (American) Lutheran and United Methodist churches, is often but not always seen in Episcopal churches, and is occasionally seen in Presbyterian churches. (I’m not sure why we Presbys seem more likely to stick with purple. At our place, we use purple with touches of blue.)
It always amuses me slightly when those churches that use blue have blue candles in the Advent wreath for Advent I, II and IV, but a rose candle for Advent III. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone use a lighter shade of blue for that Sunday, which would make more sense to me.
Incidentally in cultures where white is used for mourning they can use another colour for Easter etc.
And here they are.
Our pink chasuble is, in my eyes, just a very little darker in shade, with blue lining, and gold orphreys.
The consecration of the altar took place on All Saints' Day ,250 years after the original dedication and the Solemn Re-opening for public worship took place on the Feast day of Christ the King.