There is an excellent app for the RC liturgy. It contains eveything for daily Mass and Office. I have found it invaluable. https://universalis.com/index.htm
There is a similar app for the US BCP, called Venite, that is excellent.
For evensong, however, it is customary in the US in my experience, rather than the Rite I traditional language from the 1979 prayer book, to use the original 1662 evening prayer liturgy, as they are slightly different (most notably in the preces/responses, as most settings are composed using the 1662 words).
There is a similar app for the US BCP, called Venite, that is excellent.
For evensong, however, it is customary in the US in my experience, rather than the Rite I traditional language from the 1979 prayer book, to use the original 1662 evening prayer liturgy, as they are slightly different (most notably in the preces/responses, as most settings are composed using the 1662 words).
For one of our diocesan conventions (Episcopal USA), our parish's early-music group was asked to sing 1662 Evensong. Apparently the leaflets were not clear enough that the responses, etc., are sung by the choir (even though it said that), and it was a bit chaotic as many of those present tried to wing it on the Smith responses. We pressed on, though. Unique experience!
O - I was under the impression that the RC Office was easier to follow! FInC uses the actual book, being something of a technophobe...
I think they are much of a muchness. However, for quite a long time, between the RC launch of the vernacular Divine Office and the CofE's adoption of Common Worship, a large number of C of E clergy found the former more congenial. It wasn't just those of an ultra-montane persuasion either. The ASB office was perceived as too bland an offering by many, the BCP too restrictive. The Society of St Francis remodelled the ASB office to fit the traditional breviary structure, and this became the basis for Common Worship: Daily Prayer.
Post Covid lockdown we no longer have a weekly evening evensong service. Now at each month, one evensong and two weeks' later a communion service with healing prayers. Both in which the music is led by the choir c12 voices. Both services are a quiet ending to the week so personally thankfully this still happens for my Christian journey, as don't think there are any alternative other evening services in this town. Happily we can support this in the future as it would be a huge loss if the Magnificent and Dunc Dimittis settings are lost in our worship tradition. Depending on size of the choir, us attendees will sit in the choir stalls and this does make the worship so much more meaningful as not the us and choir division in a service.
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
Personally I don't like having the worship done on my behalf without being able to join in.
This! My sister-in-law was Precentor at a major Australian cathedral (OK, there aren't many of 'em, and you know which state I live in 🙄), so, chorister that I will always be, I popped along for Evensong. As I joined in the canticles and psalms, I noticed gazes all over the shack turning on me. When I chipped in 1st tenor to the anthem, I thought that the Dean was about to eject me.
It is a stupid convention. Might be OK for the odd world-class Oxbridge choir, but not a (hum di dum) journeyman ensemble. That particular cathedral did used to have a first-rate organist, but he's retired, and wasn't playing that evening anyway.
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
(The service proper runs from 9 minutes in for about 40 minutes)
I. wondering why a cathedral would want to worship using the liturgy of another church and in a foreign language. Are they dissatisfied with their own?
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
Church of Ireland substitutes "President".
Presumably not in the 6 counties?
I guess not - but I've never been to the North, let alone to a church service there.
(The service proper runs from 9 minutes in for about 40 minutes)
I. wondering why a cathedral would want to worship using the liturgy of another church and in a foreign language. Are they dissatisfied with their own?
No, but they are in full communion with the C of E, and, being Europeans, mostly have a good command of English.
BTW, the King prayed for is HM Carl Gustav XVI, though I suppose his almost-namesake Charles III could be included as well...
This is an annual event, shared between four cathedrals and their boys' choirs, so I suspect that it's done to give the boys something to get their teeth into, so to speak. AFAIK most Lutheran cathedrals don't have quite the same choral tradition as those in England, as many services involve a good deal of congregational singing, with perhaps an introit and two or three short anthems or motets from the choir, if one is present.
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
Church of Ireland substitutes "President".
Presumably not in the 6 counties?
I guess not - but I've never been to the North, let alone to a church service there.
I have (!) - and it was definitely O Lord, save the Queen.*
* presumably now "King"!
We sang Evensong in one of the Dublin cathedrals, and it was "O Lord, guide and defend our rulers", as in the C of I BCP.
I seem to have a recollection of attending CE in a Scottish Episcopal Church where it was omitted completely
Probably. The prayers for the royal family were imposed by statute on the SEC as a condition of lifting restrictions on Episcopalian practice. Once the imposition was lifted (in the 70s, I think?) much of the church dropped them like a hot rock.
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
That's true in the former BCP (1928). The current BCP has different wording for these versicles and responses (termed Suffrages) so doesn't have an equivalent line. "State" is also a convenient substitution when singing a 1662 Evensong so a choral setting intended for the 1662 text can still be used.
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
That's true in the former BCP (1928). The current BCP has different wording for these versicles and responses (termed Suffrages) so doesn't have an equivalent line. "State" is also a convenient substitution when singing a 1662 Evensong so a choral setting intended for the 1662 text can still be used.
I probably knew this at one point but I forget - is the current US book like the Canadian one in not really playing well with the (Smith et al.) choral response settings?
AFAIK, there's no rule which says there must be a sermon at Evensong...a very brief reflection on the readings is surely all that's needed, unless Evensong is the only service of the day.
The BCP provides for a sermon after the Creed in the Order for Holy Communion, it does no such thing for Morning or Evening Prayer. Elizabeth's book of homilies states that the sermon or homily should be given on Sundays during "the ministering of the holy Communion, or if there be no Communion ministered that day, yet after the Gospel and Creed". I can't see that there's any support at all for a sermon at Evensong where there was Communion that morning.
I probably knew this at one point but I forget - is the current US book like the Canadian one in not really playing well with the (Smith et al.) choral response settings?
True. The Canadian BAS has contemporary revisions that may or may not work with traditional settings. As in the USA, that's why 1662 Evensongs are often done even though the 1662 wouldn't be used in other services.
There are settings for the current US Rite I Evening Prayer; one of them is used on a very good recording from Grace Cathedral, San Francisco, of an Epiphany (IIRC) Choral Evensong together with the choir of Washington National Cathedral (again, IIRC).
They often (but not invariably) have a short sermon at Sunday Evensong at our Cathedral. I think this makes sense, given the chance that a fair number of people present will not have been at a service (whether in the Cathedral or anywhere else!) in the morning.
No sermon during the week, though, AFAIK. If the day should be a major Holy Day, Evensong is usually replaced by a Sung Eucharist, at which there will be a sermon.
They often (but not invariably) have a short sermon at Sunday Evensong at our Cathedral. I think this makes sense, given the chance that a fair number of people present will not have been at a service (whether in the Cathedral or anywhere else!) in the morning.
I agree (although, on the one occasion when I was there for Choral Evensong, I don't think there was one).
I probably knew this at one point but I forget - is the current US book like the Canadian one in not really playing well with the (Smith et al.) choral response settings?
True. The Canadian BAS has contemporary revisions that may or may not work with traditional settings. As in the USA, that's why 1662 Evensongs are often done even though the 1662 wouldn't be used in other services.
There are settings for the current US Rite I Evening Prayer; one of them is used on a very good recording from Grace Cathedral, San Francisco, of an Epiphany (IIRC) Choral Evensong together with the choir of Washington National Cathedral (again, IIRC).
Thanks. I suspect that parishes here in Canada that regularly do Evensong still use the older liturgy - the ones I know about certainly did pre-Covid at least, as did my college chapel back in the 1990s. My current parish doesn’t, which is unfortunate in a way, though it is good to hear that some settings of the modern liturgy are being composed.
We lived in Holland some years ago (in an area where there were quite a few British and American people) and there was a monthly English language service, at which we prayed for "Queen Juliana, Queen Elizabeth and the President of the United States". I used to wonder why the President didn't get a name, but I suppose he was included by virtue of his office, not as a person.
We lived in Holland some years ago (in an area where there were quite a few British and American people) and there was a monthly English language service, at which we prayed for "Queen Juliana, Queen Elizabeth and the President of the United States". I used to wonder why the President didn't get a name, but I suppose he was included by virtue of his office, not as a person.
I rather miss what we did every week in the university parish I spent some years in: always have a petition for (for example), "Ronald our President, John our Governor, and Elizabeth our mayor." With appropriate revisions, of course, as elections happened. The mayor, whose day job was chief of staff at the local Roman Catholic student parish, had occasion to attend an ecumenical service at our church and said afterward she was touched that her name was mentioned in the prayers. She was further touched when told this occurred every Sunday and major holy day.
I’ve been told that at Evensong in the US, “O Lord, save the King” is replaced by “O Lord, save the State.” Can anyone attest one way or the other? The friend who told me may well have been pulling my leg, but it’s also hard to imagine Americans praying for the monarch!
I ditch HM in the State Prayers, and pray for the Governor General (and, of course, for the PM, the Leader of the Opposition, the Premier of Queensland, and the Mayor of Townsville.)
I ditch HM in the State Prayers, and pray for the Governor General (and, of course, for the PM, the Leader of the Opposition, the Premier of Queensland, and the Mayor of Townsville.)
Is that common practice where you are? Why wouldn't you pray for your monarch but would pray for their representative?
Is that common practice where you are? Why wouldn't you pray for your monarch but would pray for their representative?
The Uniting Church doesn't do State Prayers at all. I'm a shoo-in from the Anglicans. Our Head of State is the Governor General. Not satisfactory, but at least not an absentee who doesn't want us and we don't want him. If you want to take this further, go to Purg.
Purely from a choral evensong perspective the use of the state prayers is neither here nor there. It’s what you do with the sung versicle and response “V O Lord, save the King. R And mercifully hear us when we call upon thee.” Since “Governor General” nor “President” work with the music.
Purely from a choral evensong perspective the use of the state prayers is neither here nor there. It’s what you do with the sung versicle and response “V O Lord, save the King. R And mercifully hear us when we call upon thee.” Since “Governor General” nor “President” work with the music.
Purely from a choral evensong perspective the use of the state prayers is neither here nor there. It’s what you do with the sung versicle and response “V O Lord, save the King. R And mercifully hear us when we call upon thee.” Since “Governor General” nor “President” work with the music.
Comments
https://universalis.com/index.htm
For evensong, however, it is customary in the US in my experience, rather than the Rite I traditional language from the 1979 prayer book, to use the original 1662 evening prayer liturgy, as they are slightly different (most notably in the preces/responses, as most settings are composed using the 1662 words).
For one of our diocesan conventions (Episcopal USA), our parish's early-music group was asked to sing 1662 Evensong. Apparently the leaflets were not clear enough that the responses, etc., are sung by the choir (even though it said that), and it was a bit chaotic as many of those present tried to wing it on the Smith responses. We pressed on, though. Unique experience!
That’s a blast from the past. Haven’t sung them for years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi19DpL7rmI
(The service proper runs from 9 minutes in for about 40 minutes)
This! My sister-in-law was Precentor at a major Australian cathedral (OK, there aren't many of 'em, and you know which state I live in 🙄), so, chorister that I will always be, I popped along for Evensong. As I joined in the canticles and psalms, I noticed gazes all over the shack turning on me. When I chipped in 1st tenor to the anthem, I thought that the Dean was about to eject me.
It is a stupid convention. Might be OK for the odd world-class Oxbridge choir, but not a (hum di dum) journeyman ensemble. That particular cathedral did used to have a first-rate organist, but he's retired, and wasn't playing that evening anyway.
Yes that is true
I. wondering why a cathedral would want to worship using the liturgy of another church and in a foreign language. Are they dissatisfied with their own?
Church of Ireland substitutes "President".
Presumably not in the 6 counties?
Oof, more syllables!
I guess not - but I've never been to the North, let alone to a church service there.
No, but they are in full communion with the C of E, and, being Europeans, mostly have a good command of English.
BTW, the King prayed for is HM Carl Gustav XVI, though I suppose his almost-namesake Charles III could be included as well...
This is an annual event, shared between four cathedrals and their boys' choirs, so I suspect that it's done to give the boys something to get their teeth into, so to speak. AFAIK most Lutheran cathedrals don't have quite the same choral tradition as those in England, as many services involve a good deal of congregational singing, with perhaps an introit and two or three short anthems or motets from the choir, if one is present.
We do indeed say State over here.
I have (!) - and it was definitely O Lord, save the Queen.*
* presumably now "King"!
We sang Evensong in one of the Dublin cathedrals, and it was "O Lord, guide and defend our rulers", as in the C of I BCP.
Probably. The prayers for the royal family were imposed by statute on the SEC as a condition of lifting restrictions on Episcopalian practice. Once the imposition was lifted (in the 70s, I think?) much of the church dropped them like a hot rock.
That's true in the former BCP (1928). The current BCP has different wording for these versicles and responses (termed Suffrages) so doesn't have an equivalent line. "State" is also a convenient substitution when singing a 1662 Evensong so a choral setting intended for the 1662 text can still be used.
I probably knew this at one point but I forget - is the current US book like the Canadian one in not really playing well with the (Smith et al.) choral response settings?
The BCP provides for a sermon after the Creed in the Order for Holy Communion, it does no such thing for Morning or Evening Prayer. Elizabeth's book of homilies states that the sermon or homily should be given on Sundays during "the ministering of the holy Communion, or if there be no Communion ministered that day, yet after the Gospel and Creed". I can't see that there's any support at all for a sermon at Evensong where there was Communion that morning.
True. The Canadian BAS has contemporary revisions that may or may not work with traditional settings. As in the USA, that's why 1662 Evensongs are often done even though the 1662 wouldn't be used in other services.
There are settings for the current US Rite I Evening Prayer; one of them is used on a very good recording from Grace Cathedral, San Francisco, of an Epiphany (IIRC) Choral Evensong together with the choir of Washington National Cathedral (again, IIRC).
I have.
They often (but not invariably) have a short sermon at Sunday Evensong at our Cathedral. I think this makes sense, given the chance that a fair number of people present will not have been at a service (whether in the Cathedral or anywhere else!) in the morning.
No sermon during the week, though, AFAIK. If the day should be a major Holy Day, Evensong is usually replaced by a Sung Eucharist, at which there will be a sermon.
Thanks. I suspect that parishes here in Canada that regularly do Evensong still use the older liturgy - the ones I know about certainly did pre-Covid at least, as did my college chapel back in the 1990s. My current parish doesn’t, which is unfortunate in a way, though it is good to hear that some settings of the modern liturgy are being composed.
I rather miss what we did every week in the university parish I spent some years in: always have a petition for (for example), "Ronald our President, John our Governor, and Elizabeth our mayor." With appropriate revisions, of course, as elections happened. The mayor, whose day job was chief of staff at the local Roman Catholic student parish, had occasion to attend an ecumenical service at our church and said afterward she was touched that her name was mentioned in the prayers. She was further touched when told this occurred every Sunday and major holy day.
I ditch HM in the State Prayers, and pray for the Governor General (and, of course, for the PM, the Leader of the Opposition, the Premier of Queensland, and the Mayor of Townsville.)
Is that common practice where you are? Why wouldn't you pray for your monarch but would pray for their representative?
The Uniting Church doesn't do State Prayers at all. I'm a shoo-in from the Anglicans. Our Head of State is the Governor General. Not satisfactory, but at least not an absentee who doesn't want us and we don't want him. If you want to take this further, go to Purg.
Fixed coding - Nenya, Ecclesiantics Host
Doesn't scan, if you're using 1662, you're right. But no more nonsensical than 1662 morning prayer:
"Endue thy ministers with righteousness"
Cue mournful dirge from the cong
"And make thy chosen people joy oy oy" (sounding for all the world like awful) "ful".
Omit it?
So use O Lord, save/ help us all?