From recollection, the Hastings units were diesel electric whereas most/almost all the other earlier Dmus were diesel mechanical. I remember the Metro-Cammells well, travelling in one in East Anglia well back into the late fifties. For visual appearance, though, I always thought, and still think, that the Derby Lightweights, with their three panel panoramic bow windows at each end were the most attractive Dmus ever built.
I never saw a Derby lightweight but I agree with your comment.
Yes, the Southern Region went their own way and built diesel-electric DMUs. These (and their Northern Ireland Class 70/80 counterparts) sacrificed quite a lot of passenger space by having their engines mounted above the underframes and within the carriage bodies. I think that the SR ones were able to run in multiple with electric units, though I've never seen any photo evidence of this.
As I wrote above, the Class 127 "BedPan" units were diesel-hydraulic, as were the first few Derby Lightweights ... you'd have expected them to be running out of Paddington, wouldn't you!
At a later period, the Southern had unpowered sets that could either run connected to powered Emus or diesel locomotives, usually, if not invariably, Cromptons, and could run push-pull with either. The driving compartments and connections in the sets contained driving equipment which meant they could control either.
They worked from Bournemouth to Weymouth from after the main line from Basingstoke to Southampton and Bournemouth was electrified until the line further west was eventually electrified as well. The combination of Compton and four car unpowered unit sometimes used to appear in the Bristol area at weekends.
I do know of a situation where a 4TC+33 diesel from Salisbury combined at Basingstoke with a 4VEP from Southampton and then ran as one train to Waterloo - sometimes with the loco in the middle!
I do know of a situation where a 4TC+33 diesel from Salisbury combined at Basingstoke with a 4VEP from Southampton and then ran as one train to Waterloo - sometimes with the loco in the middle!
Typical Southern Railway/Region versatility!
The motor luggage vans introduced at the time of the Kent Coast electrification were another example - third-rail pick-up for main line running, battery power for quayside/shunting, and capable of hauling a trailing load of parcels vans:
That has to be the one I saw, even given how 30 years ago North Wales could be back then I wondered what the hell was going on!
Just as an aside, I personally think that the BR green livery (with some lighter trim here and there - including the cat's whiskers on some units!) suited the first-generation DMUs much better than the later blue or blue'/grey. Apart from anything else, it must have been easier to keep cleanish...
Even the rather utilitarian slab-sided Hastings DEMUs looked better in their original green, because, of course, Green is the Proper Colour for Southern Railway/Region passenger rolling stock, as enny fule kno.
Granted, there were several different shades of Green (Mr Maunsell liked sage or olive green, Mr Bulleid preferred malachite, and even the BR Brunswick green suited our express locomotives very nicely).
The motor luggage vans introduced at the time of the Kent Coast electrification were another example - third-rail pick-up for main line running, battery power for quayside/shunting, and capable of hauling a trailing load of parcels vans:
Yes, I remember sitting on the cliff above Folkestone Harbour in 1972 watching the boat trains come in and the MLV at the front detaching itself and running along the jetty.
My Old Dad took me to Our Station to see the last down steam-hauled Golden Arrow - which must have been a day or so before electrification in June 1961.
I still have the glossy press photo he bought for me as a memento - it shows 34100 Appledore, complete with the full set of accoutrements, entering Our Station on the down through line.
The last Golden Arrow working was on 30 September 1972, so I'm afraid you weren't lucky enough to see it in its all-Pullman prime.
A splendid name, indeed, and how splendid the train itself looked in all its glory!
I remember the Night Ferry, too, with its exotic-looking blue Wagons-Lits sleeping-cars, though I can't recall seeing it behind a steam engine...usually a Pacific (maybe two, or a Pacific and a 4-4-0!). Latterly, it was handled by the 71s, or a Crompton, or an electro-diesel, perhaps depending on what was available
No, and I only saw it about a month before its demise. Was there ever a better name (in Britain) for a train?
I also saw the up "Night Ferry" several times, on Foord Road viaduct.
A splendid name in two languages: La Flèche d'Or . If the first Channel Tunnel scheme had come to fruition, do you think we could have had L' Écossais Volant?
Aside, why did the Cromptons get that nickname but not the BRC&W Type 2s? They had a similar Crompton Parkinson transmission, but didn't, so far as I know, ever acquire the nickname. (But wouldn't you prefer a Crampton for high speed elegance?)
Not sure about the Cromptons/Class 33s. When they first appeared on our holy Southern metals, we just called them *those bl***y diseasels*, but they lasted very well, and proved a good investment.
We may have had other types of diseasel on our sacred tracks at times, but I can't offhand recall any, other than the D65xx class...
I remember the Night Ferry, too, with its exotic-looking blue Wagons-Lits sleeping-cars.
I never travelled on it, although in the mid-60s we used the French "autotrain" a couple of times and enjoyed two adjoining first-class sleeping compartments (with connecting door), my parents in one, my sister and I in the other. A good meal was had at Boulogne Maritime station after loading the car, and a good breakfast in the dining car before arriving at Lyons.
In later years finance was more straitened and we travelled by couchette ...
How well I recall the enormous pair of Kippers I enjoyed on the morning train from Glasgow to Oban, sometime in the early 70s. The price (which was not outrageous) included as much Coffee, and Toast n'Marmalade, as I wanted - all served by an elderly attendant smartly clad in a white jacket...
Cromptons did strike me as having more of a kick in them than 31s.
That view is coloured, though, by the experience of a 31 failing completely in the later part of a journey. It had turned up at the head of a train which would normally have had a 47. It had been clear all along that it was not up to the job. It was already running late and only reached the sort of speed one would have expected for about 10 miles after being boosted by descending the Lickey. About a quarter of an hour later, it gave up completely somewhere vaguely near Stroud, and after about 25 minutes we were rescued by another engine sent out to bring us in.
Reminds me of my friend Pete explaining to the booking clerk at Waverley why he would not need a seat reservation on an early train to Newcastle. Breakfast in the restaurant car took up the whole trip.
I used to do that visiting my sisters in Bristol and Bath respectively. I would catch the early train back to Paddingtonand providing you were still eating breakfast when you passed Reading then you wouldn’t be moved on. The attendant simply brought more coffee and toast. Effectively, you got a good breakfast with first class travel thrown in for free!
Today's GW: "For customers in Standard Class, please speak to the Pullman Dining restaurant manager when boarding and we'll be happy to accommodate you subject to availability." I don't know if they chuck you out when you've finished the meal. BTW price is £38 for a two course meal or £46 for three courses.
It sounds a lot, but good-quality High Street restaurants aren't exactly cheap these days, and railway catering has always been a bit more expensive than other Places. A three-course lunch (with a carafe of wine) at our best local Italian restaurant will set you back at least £50 each !
Mrs BF and I had dinner on an HST from to Plymouth way back in April 1978, and, although I recollect that the meal itself (3 courses) was excellent, I can't remember the price. We were on our way to the Isles of Scilly for our honeymoon, so expense was no object...then...
Problem is, you can't be 100% sure that the train you catch will have the dining car as advertised - there seems to be a shortage of rolling stock or staff.
I remember travelling from Manchester (Central) to St Pancras with my grandparents and having lunch (or dinner as we northerners term the mid-day meal) in the restaurant car, with white table cloths and the full monty. While my grandparents were not dirt poor, they were far from rich, so I imagine the price was quite affordable in real terms.
I still recall my grandfather's disappointment when we got to the head of the train in London and noticed that many of the first-class compartments had stickers on them 'for the use of second-class passengers'. In those days this 'upgrade' was free, but of course, you had to know about it. The thought had not entered his head.
I also recall going with my father to the League Cup Final in 1974 which had similar wonderful dining provision both ways on the special train we had places on. In 1976, it was far less classy, and if I recall rightly, by 1981 there was no proper catering at all, though the train took us straight to Wembley Hill, or whatever it was called in those days. One forgets the detail, I find.
I still recall my grandfather's disappointment when we got to the head of the train in London and noticed that many of the first-class compartments had stickers on them 'for the use of second-class passengers'.
I managed that on a train from Norwich to London in c.1990.
Also in Spain, on the AVE from Cordoba to Madrid. It was a Saturday, our seats were in Coach B - except there didn't seem to be one! The conductor explained that it was in fact a first class coach, used for standard at weekends. Very nice, although unsurprisingly we didn't get first class service.
I haven't seen much here that isn't UK. But -
the Tōkaidō shinkansen to my son's city no longer provides a food trolley. Bento boxes are a good replacement.
On railway food, do any shipmates remember Lyons Individual Fruit Pies? They always seem to be a standard stock item back in the steam era on the trolleys that used to be pushed along the corridors and that sold cups of tea They of course in those days were poured out into white pot cups that one left in ones compartment or if in an open carriage, on the table.
Lyons Individual Fruit Pies were also available in shops. I can remember my mother serving them with custard. But they are something I have always associated particularly with BR and train journeys.
On railway food, do any shipmates remember Lyons Individual Fruit Pies? They always seem to be a standard stock item back in the steam era on the trolleys that used to be pushed along the corridors and that sold cups of tea They of course in those days were poured out into white pot cups that one left in ones compartment or if in an open carriage, on the table.
Lyons Individual Fruit Pies were also available in shops. I can remember my mother serving them with custard. But they are something I have always associated particularly with BR and train journeys.
Yes, I do remember Lyons' Individual Fruit Pies. I wonder if they're still available in the shops? A certain Mr K*****g makes something similar...
According to you-know-where, they continued in production up until 1968 when they were replaced with the Harvest Pie.
Lyons in many respects were a go-ahead firm - I believe the first commercial company in Britain to use a computer (don't know what for, though). I'm not, however, aware of an internal railway system.
According to you-know-where, they continued in production up until 1968 when they were replaced with the Harvest Pie.
Lyons in many respects were a go-ahead firm - I believe the first commercial company in Britain to use a computer (don't know what for, though). I'm not, however, aware of an internal railway system.
According to you-know-where, they continued in production up until 1968 when they were replaced with the Harvest Pie.
Lyons in many respects were a go-ahead firm - I believe the first commercial company in Britain to use a computer (don't know what for, though). I'm not, however, aware of an internal railway system.
According to you-know-where, they continued in production up until 1968 when they were replaced with the Harvest Pie.
Lyons in many respects were a go-ahead firm - I believe the first commercial company in Britain to use a computer (don't know what for, though). I'm not, however, aware of an internal railway system.
According to you-know-where, they continued in production up until 1968 when they were replaced with the Harvest Pie.
Lyons in many respects were a go-ahead firm - I believe the first commercial company in Britain to use a computer (don't know what for, though). I'm not, however, aware of an internal railway system.
Huntley & Palmer (the biscuit people) had their own internal railway system, which was worked by various locomotives, including a couple of fireless 0-4-0Fs:
I remember seeing the factory (but not, I think, the railway) from the train c.1970.
I have actually ridden on a train hauled by a fireless locomotive: school Transport Society visit to the Bowater's Railway, not long before it closed. We rode on flat trucks between Kemsley Down and Ridham Dock (that's the bit that hasn't been preserved), headed by "Unique". We saw a couple of the steamers in the workshop.
There used to be an enormous colliery system around Walkden. Literally miles of private track. I recall wagging school one day to see it - but I only saw one train all day, hauled by an Austerity tank.
Industrial railways - of an amazing assortment of gauges! - were once common.
Locally, we had Bowaters' lines, some cement works systems, Reed's paper mill, and, further afield, the NCB at Snowdown and Betteshanger (where I was allowed to waggle the regulator of an Austerity 0-6-0ST!).
I'm afraid that I've once again succumbed to temptation, and pre-ordered one of Rapido's upcoming Barclay 0-4-0Fs in 00 scale. It will be the blue version (I like blue locomotives), and is needed to shunt the chemical and tar works sidings on one of my little dioramas:
My usual retailer is offering this at less than the RRP, which is, I grant you, high. Rapido models are very good, though, and my sorrowing heirs and assigns will eventually be able to sell it on without too much of a loss...
Comments
Mind, I still prefer steam.
Yes, the Southern Region went their own way and built diesel-electric DMUs. These (and their Northern Ireland Class 70/80 counterparts) sacrificed quite a lot of passenger space by having their engines mounted above the underframes and within the carriage bodies. I think that the SR ones were able to run in multiple with electric units, though I've never seen any photo evidence of this.
As I wrote above, the Class 127 "BedPan" units were diesel-hydraulic, as were the first few Derby Lightweights ... you'd have expected them to be running out of Paddington, wouldn't you!
They worked from Bournemouth to Weymouth from after the main line from Basingstoke to Southampton and Bournemouth was electrified until the line further west was eventually electrified as well. The combination of Compton and four car unpowered unit sometimes used to appear in the Bristol area at weekends.
I do know of a situation where a 4TC+33 diesel from Salisbury combined at Basingstoke with a 4VEP from Southampton and then ran as one train to Waterloo - sometimes with the loco in the middle!
Typical Southern Railway/Region versatility!
The motor luggage vans introduced at the time of the Kent Coast electrification were another example - third-rail pick-up for main line running, battery power for quayside/shunting, and capable of hauling a trailing load of parcels vans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_419
Just as an aside, I personally think that the BR green livery (with some lighter trim here and there - including the cat's whiskers on some units!) suited the first-generation DMUs much better than the later blue or blue'/grey. Apart from anything else, it must have been easier to keep cleanish...
Even the rather utilitarian slab-sided Hastings DEMUs looked better in their original green, because, of course, Green is the Proper Colour for Southern Railway/Region passenger rolling stock, as enny fule kno.
Granted, there were several different shades of Green (Mr Maunsell liked sage or olive green, Mr Bulleid preferred malachite, and even the BR Brunswick green suited our express locomotives very nicely).
And I saw the "Golden Arrow"!
I still have the glossy press photo he bought for me as a memento - it shows 34100 Appledore, complete with the full set of accoutrements, entering Our Station on the down through line.
The last Golden Arrow working was on 30 September 1972, so I'm afraid you weren't lucky enough to see it in its all-Pullman prime.
I also saw the up "Night Ferry" several times, on Foord Road viaduct.
I remember the Night Ferry, too, with its exotic-looking blue Wagons-Lits sleeping-cars, though I can't recall seeing it behind a steam engine...usually a Pacific (maybe two, or a Pacific and a 4-4-0!). Latterly, it was handled by the 71s, or a Crompton, or an electro-diesel, perhaps depending on what was available
A splendid name in two languages: La Flèche d'Or . If the first Channel Tunnel scheme had come to fruition, do you think we could have had L' Écossais Volant?
Aside, why did the Cromptons get that nickname but not the BRC&W Type 2s? They had a similar Crompton Parkinson transmission, but didn't, so far as I know, ever acquire the nickname. (But wouldn't you prefer a Crampton for high speed elegance?)
We may have had other types of diseasel on our sacred tracks at times, but I can't offhand recall any, other than the D65xx class...
Of course they were much more common in France.
I never travelled on it, although in the mid-60s we used the French "autotrain" a couple of times and enjoyed two adjoining first-class sleeping compartments (with connecting door), my parents in one, my sister and I in the other. A good meal was had at Boulogne Maritime station after loading the car, and a good breakfast in the dining car before arriving at Lyons.
In later years finance was more straitened and we travelled by couchette ...
How well I recall the enormous pair of Kippers I enjoyed on the morning train from Glasgow to Oban, sometime in the early 70s. The price (which was not outrageous) included as much Coffee, and Toast n'Marmalade, as I wanted - all served by an elderly attendant smartly clad in a white jacket...
That view is coloured, though, by the experience of a 31 failing completely in the later part of a journey. It had turned up at the head of a train which would normally have had a 47. It had been clear all along that it was not up to the job. It was already running late and only reached the sort of speed one would have expected for about 10 miles after being boosted by descending the Lickey. About a quarter of an hour later, it gave up completely somewhere vaguely near Stroud, and after about 25 minutes we were rescued by another engine sent out to bring us in.
FYI: https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2024-12/First-Class-breakfast-menu-January-2025-V3.pdf. No kippers though.
Mrs BF and I had dinner on an HST from to Plymouth way back in April 1978, and, although I recollect that the meal itself (3 courses) was excellent, I can't remember the price. We were on our way to the Isles of Scilly for our honeymoon, so expense was no object...then...
(And a flask of whisky, in best adventure-novel style...)
I still recall my grandfather's disappointment when we got to the head of the train in London and noticed that many of the first-class compartments had stickers on them 'for the use of second-class passengers'. In those days this 'upgrade' was free, but of course, you had to know about it. The thought had not entered his head.
I also recall going with my father to the League Cup Final in 1974 which had similar wonderful dining provision both ways on the special train we had places on. In 1976, it was far less classy, and if I recall rightly, by 1981 there was no proper catering at all, though the train took us straight to Wembley Hill, or whatever it was called in those days. One forgets the detail, I find.
Also in Spain, on the AVE from Cordoba to Madrid. It was a Saturday, our seats were in Coach B - except there didn't seem to be one! The conductor explained that it was in fact a first class coach, used for standard at weekends. Very nice, although unsurprisingly we didn't get first class service.
the Tōkaidō shinkansen to my son's city no longer provides a food trolley. Bento boxes are a good replacement.
They can often be bought in the stations, certainly the main stations.
Lyons Individual Fruit Pies were also available in shops. I can remember my mother serving them with custard. But they are something I have always associated particularly with BR and train journeys.
Yes, I do remember Lyons' Individual Fruit Pies. I wonder if they're still available in the shops? A certain Mr K*****g makes something similar...
Lyons in many respects were a go-ahead firm - I believe the first commercial company in Britain to use a computer (don't know what for, though). I'm not, however, aware of an internal railway system.
They had sidings linked to the GWR:
https://alchetron.com/J.-Lyons-and-Co.,-Greenford#Transport
Did they have any locomotives?
Tangentially, Cadbury definitely did, and very attractive they were too.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gallery/cadburys-very-own-railway-system-10755635
https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/w-g-bagnall-works-no-2473-huntley-palmer-no-2-0-4-0f/
I have actually ridden on a train hauled by a fireless locomotive: school Transport Society visit to the Bowater's Railway, not long before it closed. We rode on flat trucks between Kemsley Down and Ridham Dock (that's the bit that hasn't been preserved), headed by "Unique". We saw a couple of the steamers in the workshop.
Locally, we had Bowaters' lines, some cement works systems, Reed's paper mill, and, further afield, the NCB at Snowdown and Betteshanger (where I was allowed to waggle the regulator of an Austerity 0-6-0ST!).
I'm afraid that I've once again succumbed to temptation, and pre-ordered one of Rapido's upcoming Barclay 0-4-0Fs in 00 scale. It will be the blue version (I like blue locomotives), and is needed to shunt the chemical and tar works sidings on one of my little dioramas:
https://rapidotrains.co.uk/shop/uk/oo-gauge/oo-locomotives/caledonia-fireless/andrew-barclay-fireless-0-4-0-lined-caledonian-blue/
My usual retailer is offering this at less than the RRP, which is, I grant you, high. Rapido models are very good, though, and my sorrowing heirs and assigns will eventually be able to sell it on without too much of a loss...