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When David Heard

HeronHeron Shipmate
edited May 10 in Ecclesiantics
This morning I have been listening to the 3 well known settings of 2 Sam 18:33 - Weelkes, Tomkins, Whitacre. None of these are part of our choir repertoire atm.

I would be worthwhile, I think, to offer these words (and this human experience) in public worship.

Looking at the lectionary, it doesn't tend to fall easily in terms of our choir year (summer / early September)

Have you sung this wonderful text in worship? When? Which?

Thank you

Heron

<edit: speeling>

Comments

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    I have sung both the Weelkes and the Tomkins in a cathedral choir during Lent. Their mood of regretful sorrow fits well with the mood of the season, though the words don't actually "fit" anywhere.
    They are both sublime.
  • HeronHeron Shipmate
    They are sublime - they all leave me shaken.

    I've just read an interview with Whitacre about his setting, and about his use of silence. I found this illuminating as to why I prefer the Weelkes to the Tomkins - there is a little more space in the Weelkes - expressing the agony more clearly for me.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Any chance of a link for those not familiar with this?
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    You might also consider a setting by Joshua Shank, which holds its own among the others, IMO.

    https://youtu.be/nLQaR1nO1Jc?si=FxxoocY5NZRKeNvH
  • HeronHeron Shipmate
    Cheers @Spike

    The text offers up unimaginable human grief without the complications of atonement....

    Text: When David heard that Absalom was slain he went up into his chamber over the gate and wept, my son, my son, O Absalom my son, would God I had died for thee!
    2 Sam 18:33

    Weelkes setting: https://youtu.be/YmqKcDVXkA0?si=cnubh8Ewef_il2WU

    Tomkins setting: https://youtu.be/DFD85AtqV2U?si=V-LoyXETRIiSVQZe

    Whitacre setting: https://youtu.be/AwFAcXDoOiY?si=sQHF6aLMRajfag4e
  • HeronHeron Shipmate
    <just listened to Joshua Shank setting, thanks @The_Riv >

    ..the Weelkes and Tomkins have the advantage of being free/out of copyright be several centuries!!
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    I’ve only sung them in concerts (Weelkes and Tomkins).

    It isn’t just grief, it is the conflicting emotions. Absalom had fallen out with David so badly that he led a rebellion against David. David’s general is expecting David to be pleased because the main rebel against his kingdom is dead. David has to excuse himself and go and cry his eyes out and then go back to the troops and praise them for their efficient work.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 10
    The_Riv wrote: »
    You might also consider a setting by Joshua Shank, which holds its own among the others, IMO.
    I’m actually partial to William Billing’s “David’s Lamentation.” I can imagine it might sound “rough” to some, but that’s part of its appeal to me.

    Billings (1746–1800) is considered the first American choral composer. “David’s Lamentation” made its way into the Sacred Harp tradition, where it takes on a real rawness.


  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    edited May 11
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    You might also consider a setting by Joshua Shank, which holds its own among the others, IMO.
    I’m actually partial to William Billing’s “David’s Lamentation.” I can imagine it might sound “rough” to some, but that’s part of its appeal to me.

    Billings (1746–1800) is considered the first American choral composer. “David’s Lamentation” made its way into the Sacred Harp tradition, where it takes on a real rawness.

    I sing Sacred Harp when I can, and this is one of my favorites. First thing I thought of when I saw this thread.
  • HeronHeron Shipmate
    Well, I've just had a lovely walk down an unfamiliar path learning a very little about sacred harp.

    When I first listened to the second of @Nick Tamen 's links, I struggled with the persistent emphasis on '1' and the dynamic approach. Wiki tells me that both of these are features of the genre. So I listened again, and read. Will listen more.

    I think the only shape note singer I have met was an assistant musician at Iona Abbey. I recall enjoying their approach to ornamentation.

    When I have sung alongside US singers in the past, they have gone from their normal speaking voice to 'cathedral vowels' when singing. I am enjoying hearing in Sacred Harp recordings a different approach to vowels than might be found in UK church choirs.

    I wonder why 'David's Lamentation' has stuck in the Sacred Harp rep., where settings of the text are rarely heard in the UK?

    @Aravis is of course correct about the complexities of the story. Messy families, loss, broken relationships....kinda things that lots of people bring with them to church.

    Cheers

    Heron
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    @Heron, I looked up "cathedral vowels" and drew a blank. All the choir directors I've sung with have talked about vowels, mostly trying to get people to voice the first half of dipthongs and not the second. Eg., "day" stretched out in a sung note tends to become "deh-ee" where I live, so directors want us to sing "deh." I remember the chorus director in third grade trying to get us all to sing "fire" as one syllable instead of "fi-yer." Is that what you mean?

    Nobody gives such things a thought at Sacred Harp singings. Newbies only get instruction in how to read the shapes.

    Billings' setting of David's Lamentation has persisted in Sacred Harp because people love it. At a singing people take turns leading, anyone can lead, and the person leading chooses the song. Minutes are recorded and sent to an organizing body which compiles them from all over, so they know which songs in the book are being sung and which are not. A new revision of the Sacred Harp songbook is coming out later this year; the committee is adding things composed since the 1991 edition and dropping others. I would bet the rent David's Lamentation will be retained; it is a staple of singing conventions.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Pronunciations like dayeeeee and fiyah always put me in mind of down market club singers.
  • RecoveringCynicRecoveringCynic Shipmate
    I love Sacred Harp (as those of you who follow the hymns thread are familiar with given my musical choices) and hope to attend a singing one of these days.
  • HeronHeron Shipmate
    Ah, @Ruth I was tying myself in knots trying not to say that the Americans I have sung church music with don't sound American when they sing. They sound English.

    Perhaps foolishly, I imagined that I might be making a crass and simplistic 'nationalistic' comment and might cause offense, and I was seeking to avoid this I hope you can be generous.

    Billing's lamentation is growing on me, I re-listened to several 'When David heard' settings in the gym this afternoon.

    I also found out there is a Sacred Harp group in Norwich, meeting Sunday afternoons. When I am free....
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    @Heron, not crass at all! Americans who sound English when they sing were trained to do that. My spoken vowels, full of diphthongs and schwas, are hilariously wrong for sacred choral music, not to mention my pronounced California R's. More than one choir director I've sung with had everyone cross out a lot of the R's at the ends of syllables. The Baptist choir director spent a fair amount of time teaching us how to sing the word "glory" so it would have a pure round O and not a lot of R. One Episcopalian choir director played recordings of English boys choirs to demonstrate how he wanted us to sound when we sang Evensong.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Not even all English accents are acceptable either - I well remember a choir in the west country where we had it drummed into us not to sing "dez-oi-urrrr" in the hymn As the deer pants for the water.

    Conversely, a lot of worship songs, even those written by UK authors, seem to encourage if not force American accents.

    I have been known, purely for entertainment purposes, to apply my best choral voice to entirely inappropriate songs. Greased Lightning is a particular favourite in that regard.
  • HeronHeron Shipmate
    Indeed! In the fun up to Christmas we warmed up by singing Mariah Carey's Christmas belter to 'Mendelsson' (Hark), pronouncing ever vowel and consonant in the English choral style.

    it was....wrong
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    In this bit of the UK it isn't unusual to hear A-lee- liew- YAH at this time of the year. I don't mind regional pronunciation in choirs (and not at all a fan of stilted "Arnglican" pronunciation)..... but I can't be doing with unphrased hammering out of notes one by one almost as though they were seperate entities.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    You might also consider a setting by Joshua Shank, which holds its own among the others, IMO.
    I’m actually partial to William Billing’s “David’s Lamentation.” I can imagine it might sound “rough” to some, but that’s part of its appeal to me.

    Billings (1746–1800) is considered the first American choral composer. “David’s Lamentation” made its way into the Sacred Harp tradition, where it takes on a real rawness.

    I enjoy Billings' setting, too! Good one.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I've sung the Tomkins setting, but set in a higher key (I think SAATB) than in Heron's link.

    Wonderful piece. ❤️
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I sang for many years in Yorkshire choral societies and some of the vowels were often praised and much sought after by eminent conductors.
    Listening to older choral recordings of Kings Cambridge under David Willcocks, the vowels are very different from today’s.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Puzzler wrote: »
    ... Listening to older choral recordings of Kings Cambridge under David Willcocks, the vowels are very different from today’s.
    Who's this bloke Shelby anyway (as in "and ever Shelby, world without end ...")? :mrgreen:

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Piglet wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    ... Listening to older choral recordings of Kings Cambridge under David Willcocks, the vowels are very different from today’s.
    Who's this bloke Shelby anyway (as in "and ever Shelby, world without end ...")? :mrgreen:

    Nail on head.
  • Gamma GamalielGamma Gamaliel Shipmate
    Sacred Harp is cool.

    I went to a demonstration/workshop of it once.

    I envy all you choral types, whatever the style 😎.
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