Good Christian

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  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate

    The quote I have heard is
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ

    This is not so surprising from one who experienced the Doctrine of Discovery or its European version.
    From that perspective I wonder if there has ever been a Good Christian Nation, or even a Christian Nation.

    Hear! Hear! I may be biased by being a Christian, but I will extend both by case studies and my sympathy to many other religions. The absolute worst offenders throughout history are religious-nations. It doesn't matter the religion, doesn't matter the nation or ethnicity, when you combine the two you get very reliable sorts of nightmare fuel.

    I might raise it to ask whether there has ever been a good nation. Everywhere you look in human history, when a nation rises, there's a bloodbath.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Bullfrog wrote: »

    The quote I have heard is
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ

    This is not so surprising from one who experienced the Doctrine of Discovery or its European version.
    From that perspective I wonder if there has ever been a Good Christian Nation, or even a Christian Nation.

    Hear! Hear! I may be biased by being a Christian, but I will extend both by case studies and my sympathy to many other religions. The absolute worst offenders throughout history are religious-nations. It doesn't matter the religion, doesn't matter the nation or ethnicity, when you combine the two you get very reliable sorts of nightmare fuel.

    I might raise it to ask whether there has ever been a good nation. Everywhere you look in human history, when a nation rises, there's a bloodbath.

    I have heard it said that getting bad people to do bad things is easy. Getting good people to do bad things - that needs religion.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    This is not so surprising from one who experienced the Doctrine of Discovery or its European version.
    The Doctrine of Discovery would never have applied in India. That would have been the good old doctrine of conquest aka aremight makes right as applied by countless states and empires from within and without India and the rest of the world over the course of history.

  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I have heard it said that getting bad people to do bad things is easy. Getting good people to do bad things - that needs religion.
    It's been said. Whether it's true is another matter. It probably requires considerable "no true good person" and "no true not religion" to deal with counterexamples.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bullfrog wrote: »

    The quote I have heard is
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ

    This is not so surprising from one who experienced the Doctrine of Discovery or its European version.
    From that perspective I wonder if there has ever been a Good Christian Nation, or even a Christian Nation.

    Hear! Hear! I may be biased by being a Christian, but I will extend both by case studies and my sympathy to many other religions. The absolute worst offenders throughout history are religious-nations. It doesn't matter the religion, doesn't matter the nation or ethnicity, when you combine the two you get very reliable sorts of nightmare fuel.

    I might raise it to ask whether there has ever been a good nation. Everywhere you look in human history, when a nation rises, there's a bloodbath.

    I have heard it said that getting bad people to do bad things is easy. Getting good people to do bad things - that needs religion.

    I've heard it said too. But I think religion can also get bad people to do good things, and other powerful ideas can do either as well. How many idealistic young communists committed atrocities at the behest of Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot? Ideas are powerful.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bullfrog wrote: »

    The quote I have heard is
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ

    This is not so surprising from one who experienced the Doctrine of Discovery or its European version.
    From that perspective I wonder if there has ever been a Good Christian Nation, or even a Christian Nation.

    Hear! Hear! I may be biased by being a Christian, but I will extend both by case studies and my sympathy to many other religions. The absolute worst offenders throughout history are religious-nations. It doesn't matter the religion, doesn't matter the nation or ethnicity, when you combine the two you get very reliable sorts of nightmare fuel.

    I might raise it to ask whether there has ever been a good nation. Everywhere you look in human history, when a nation rises, there's a bloodbath.

    I have heard it said that getting bad people to do bad things is easy. Getting good people to do bad things - that needs religion.

    I've heard it said too. But I think religion can also get bad people to do good things, and other powerful ideas can do either as well. How many idealistic young communists committed atrocities at the behest of Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot? Ideas are powerful.

    They are, and it's probably powerful ideas that are the problem. Religions just historically seem to provide a lot of the powerful ideas.

    Religion can get bad people to do good things, but far too often it provides bad people with reasons to do bad things. Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but there are absolute waves of hatred on social media for various groups in society, and religious people are seriously over-represented amongst those with the most vitriolic hatred.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    I think you need to believe in Christ to call yourself Christian.

    That’s super broad, and not necessarily a bad thing. What do you mean by “believe in,” though? That Jesus of Nazareth via Bethlehem was/is The Son of God? That he was born of a virgin? That he performed miracles? That he was the Jewish Messiah? That he died for our sins? That he was resurrected from the dead? That he’s our advocate with God the Father when we die? That he’s part of the Trinity? Are any of those sufficient alone? Is there a correct combination of only some of them? Are all required? How can I know that whatever aspect(s) of belief I settle on are correct? Is there even any possibility of mis-believing? Is belief, whatever it is, enough? What if I never do anything Jesus specifically instructed, but believe?

    The mind goes wild.

    What did Jesus demand that people should believe?
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited May 30
    Alan29 wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    I think you need to believe in Christ to call yourself Christian.

    That’s super broad, and not necessarily a bad thing. What do you mean by “believe in,” though? That Jesus of Nazareth via Bethlehem was/is The Son of God? That he was born of a virgin? That he performed miracles? That he was the Jewish Messiah? That he died for our sins? That he was resurrected from the dead? That he’s our advocate with God the Father when we die? That he’s part of the Trinity? Are any of those sufficient alone? Is there a correct combination of only some of them? Are all required? How can I know that whatever aspect(s) of belief I settle on are correct? Is there even any possibility of mis-believing? Is belief, whatever it is, enough? What if I never do anything Jesus specifically instructed, but believe?

    The mind goes wild.

    What did Jesus demand that people should believe?

    "Demand" is a weasel word.

    Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn 6:29); "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (Jn 10:37-38); "While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light" (Jn 12:36); " ye believe in God, believe also in me" (Jn 14:1).

    There are other verses not in the imperative that imply as much.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bullfrog wrote: »

    The quote I have heard is
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ

    This is not so surprising from one who experienced the Doctrine of Discovery or its European version.
    From that perspective I wonder if there has ever been a Good Christian Nation, or even a Christian Nation.

    Hear! Hear! I may be biased by being a Christian, but I will extend both by case studies and my sympathy to many other religions. The absolute worst offenders throughout history are religious-nations. It doesn't matter the religion, doesn't matter the nation or ethnicity, when you combine the two you get very reliable sorts of nightmare fuel.

    I might raise it to ask whether there has ever been a good nation. Everywhere you look in human history, when a nation rises, there's a bloodbath.

    I have heard it said that getting bad people to do bad things is easy. Getting good people to do bad things - that needs religion.

    I've heard it said too. But I think religion can also get bad people to do good things, and other powerful ideas can do either as well. How many idealistic young communists committed atrocities at the behest of Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot? Ideas are powerful.

    They are, and it's probably powerful ideas that are the problem. Religions just historically seem to provide a lot of the powerful ideas.

    Religion can get bad people to do good things, but far too often it provides bad people with reasons to do bad things. Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but there are absolute waves of hatred on social media for various groups in society, and religious people are seriously over-represented amongst those with the most vitriolic hatred.

    People gravitate towards groups that share their mindset. With religion they shelter behind a label without necessarily sharing any the the w
    mousethief wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    I think you need to believe in Christ to call yourself Christian.

    That’s super broad, and not necessarily a bad thing. What do you mean by “believe in,” though? That Jesus of Nazareth via Bethlehem was/is The Son of God? That he was born of a virgin? That he performed miracles? That he was the Jewish Messiah? That he died for our sins? That he was resurrected from the dead? That he’s our advocate with God the Father when we die? That he’s part of the Trinity? Are any of those sufficient alone? Is there a correct combination of only some of them? Are all required? How can I know that whatever aspect(s) of belief I settle on are correct? Is there even any possibility of mis-believing? Is belief, whatever it is, enough? What if I never do anything Jesus specifically instructed, but believe?

    The mind goes wild.

    What did Jesus demand that people should believe?

    "Demand" is a weasel word.

    Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn 6:29); "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (Jn 10:37-38); "While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light" (Jn 12:36); " ye believe in God, believe also in me" (Jn 14:1).

    There are other verses not in the imperative that imply as much.

    Demand believe in a set of propositions is strong in some quarters. Those quotes are about belief in a person. That's why I framed the question with a what rather than a who.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    Yes, but Mousethief is right. Jesus asks for faith in a person—himself.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Yes, but Mousethief is right. Jesus asks for faith in a person—himself.

    My point.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    Maybe you could spell out your point for us?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Yes, but Mousethief is right. Jesus asks for faith in a person—himself.
    Our, depending on how the verb is translated, Jesus asks that we trust him/trust in him. That has a slightly different shading from “believe,” I think.


  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    Right. I think whatever point Alan29 was driving at had to do with the difference between faith/trust in a person and faith/trust in doctrinal propositions. Maybe he'll make that clear.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Bullfrog wrote: »

    The quote I have heard is
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ

    This is not so surprising from one who experienced the Doctrine of Discovery or its European version.
    From that perspective I wonder if there has ever been a Good Christian Nation, or even a Christian Nation.

    Hear! Hear! I may be biased by being a Christian, but I will extend both by case studies and my sympathy to many other religions. The absolute worst offenders throughout history are religious-nations. It doesn't matter the religion, doesn't matter the nation or ethnicity, when you combine the two you get very reliable sorts of nightmare fuel.

    I might raise it to ask whether there has ever been a good nation. Everywhere you look in human history, when a nation rises, there's a bloodbath.

    I have heard it said that getting bad people to do bad things is easy. Getting good people to do bad things - that needs religion.

    That's a Steven Weinberg quote, I believe. Christopher Hitchens got a lot of mileage out of it.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    My problem with "demand" is that it is a weasel word- - a pivot that a "no true Scotsman" type argument can be built on. "Jesus says do this" -- "Well he doesn't DEMAND it, does he?"
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