"Cover for austerity" stands out in that excellent post by christiles. I guess Starmer is now seeking more covers for more austerity. Oh, we are almost at war with Russia, so tighten your belts!
Would "blue Labour" be more or less synonymous with "Red Tories"?
Yes, they originally formed in 2011 and at the time Cameron-era Conservatism was supposed influenced by Philip Blond - a self identified 'Red Tory',. 'Blue Labour' was derived from this, both to indicate opposition and proximity.
I remember thinking that Blond’s 2009 book, Red Tory, was actually surprisingly well written and persuasive in terms of arguing for a return to the policies of the Labour Party right of the early 1950s, but carried out through the left of the Tory party.
The slight missing factors were how we got there from here, and also how likely (not very) any of it was to either happen or stick…
For the same reasons I found it unconvincing. It was never clear how he envisaged that 1950s economic ideas would be implemented in a different political economy and one which was significantly more financialised. Similarly it was left unsaid exactly how the middle classes would be encouraged to return to an earlier set of values (his ideal world being one in which the social changes of the 60s wouldn't have happened). I also suspected that had he got the 50s industrial policy he hankered after he'd have been complaining that it didn't leave enough space for the 'little platoons' ...
The financial crisis provided space for such ideas to emerge, but the reality is that at best they were used to provide cover for austerity. Similarly, Blue Labour don't have much of an industrial policy beyond closing half the universities and wishing that the industrials jobs re-appear (completely unchanged - I doubt if Carden et al have even seen a modern factory).
They represent only a handful of MPs with Glasman and Rutherford as intellectuals. That they are getting a lot of press currently is a choice on the part of the media to frame certain ideas as alternatives and not others.
I think we're in total agreement actually - I did find it surprisingly well-written and persuasive, but I wasn't actually persuad*ed* - my final sentence is basically your post! Red Tory - the book - is an elegant (really) fantasy. I imagine Blue Labour is of the same ilk.
Would "blue Labour" be more or less synonymous with "Red Tories"?
Yes, they originally formed in 2011 and at the time Cameron-era Conservatism was supposed influenced by Philip Blond - a self identified 'Red Tory',. 'Blue Labour' was derived from this, both to indicate opposition and proximity.
I remember thinking that Blond’s 2009 book, Red Tory, was actually surprisingly well written and persuasive in terms of arguing for a return to the policies of the Labour Party right of the early 1950s, but carried out through the left of the Tory party.
The slight missing factors were how we got there from here, and also how likely (not very) any of it was to either happen or stick…
For the same reasons I found it unconvincing. It was never clear how he envisaged that 1950s economic ideas would be implemented in a different political economy and one which was significantly more financialised. Similarly it was left unsaid exactly how the middle classes would be encouraged to return to an earlier set of values (his ideal world being one in which the social changes of the 60s wouldn't have happened). I also suspected that had he got the 50s industrial policy he hankered after he'd have been complaining that it didn't leave enough space for the 'little platoons' ...
The financial crisis provided space for such ideas to emerge, but the reality is that at best they were used to provide cover for austerity. Similarly, Blue Labour don't have much of an industrial policy beyond closing half the universities and wishing that the industrials jobs re-appear (completely unchanged - I doubt if Carden et al have even seen a modern factory).
They represent only a handful of MPs with Glasman and Rutherford as intellectuals. That they are getting a lot of press currently is a choice on the part of the media to frame certain ideas as alternatives and not others.
I think we're in total agreement actually - I did find it surprisingly well-written and persuasive, but I wasn't actually persuad*ed* - my final sentence is basically your post! Red Tory - the book - is an elegant (really) fantasy. I imagine Blue Labour is of the same ilk.
I think the commonality is that they both owe a heavy debt to very conservative readings of Catholic Social Teaching
Having said that, the tradition of elegant fantasies is a long one in British politics - I think here immediately of Disraeli's 'Sybil, or the Two Nations' - that actually can do more good than harm, as long as everyone involved remembers that it is fiction and uses it for inspiration rather than as a handbook.
Off the top of my head, I suppose the example from the left is probably something like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists, but starting with the disadvantage that Tressell/Noonan/Croker wasn't in a position to lead the country, unlike Disraeli.
In other news and being very careful what I say, I have just stood against Reform in a local council by-election brought about by an otherwise laudable Labour councillor's dismissal for non-attendance.
Get your act together, Labour!
Reform won by a convincing margin. Voters don't appear to see the discrepancy in voting for a candidate whose stated aim is to axe council services which benefit some of the most vulnerable members of our community.
The victorious candidate is very capable but certainly won't be able to fulfil their cloud-cuckoo land promises about reducing the precept and putting more money in people's pockets.
There is some consolation in the fact that there are sufficient sensible councillors to absorb and minimise the impact.
I bear them no ill will on a personal level but deplore the party they represent and the bottomless promises touted in their campaign.
I don't see the wheels falling off the Farage-mobile just yet but eventually people may realise that the Emperor has no clothes.
In other news and being very careful what I say, I have just stood against Reform in a local council by-election brought about by an otherwise laudable Labour councillor's dismissal for non-attendance.
Get your act together, Labour!
Reform won by a convincing margin. Voters don't appear to see the discrepancy in voting for a candidate whose stated aim is to axe council services which benefit some of the most vulnerable members of our community.
The victorious candidate is very capable but certainly won't be able to fulfil their cloud-cuckoo land promises about reducing the precept and putting more money in people's pockets.
There is some consolation in the fact that there are sufficient sensible councillors to absorb and minimise the impact.
I bear them no ill will on a personal level but deplore the party they represent and the bottomless promises touted in their campaign.
I don't see the wheels falling off the Farage-mobile just yet but eventually people may realise that the Emperor has no clothes.
Reform ran a very ugly campaign, including blatant racism, in our by-election but failed to achieve their stated aim of second place - but by a narrower margin than I would like. Not helped by an abysmally low turn out of just 44%, with lots of people who would previously have voted for other parties not bothering to vote.
Longer term, it's difficult to forecast (especially from by-election results which are always a bit anomalous), but I hope that the poor performance of councillors (both in Reform councillors failing to even take their seats, and with not getting work done) and the chaos at the top with executive resignations will erode any pretence they can make of being a viable vote for actually getting anything happen. If Reform poll similar proportions next year then there may be some constituencies that go that way (I expect that won't happen), but there will be a significant number of regional Reform MSPs, I'm hoping that we've seen the peak of the Reform wave, and by next year that support will be declining.
The biggest issue is that Reform squeeze support from smaller parties. The media cast this by-election as "will Reform make a break through?" and I suspect that lead to many voters who would naturally vote for one of the smaller parties voting SNP or Labour, not through agreement with their policies but to keep out Reform. Certainly on the doorstep there was a strong binary split caused by Reform, a significant number of people saying they were voting Reform before closing the door on us and a significant number who were concerned about Reform and considering who best to vote for to keep them out. I don't see that changing over the next year, unless Reform totally implode before the election (I can dream).
On first inspection the Hamilton results suggest that the Reform vote came largely at the SNP's expense, as well as consuming the remaining Tory support, with the Labour % holding roughly steady. Does that make sense?
On first inspection the Hamilton results suggest that the Reform vote came largely at the SNP's expense, as well as consuming the remaining Tory support, with the Labour % holding roughly steady. Does that make sense?
I suspect the number of SNP-Reform switchers is tiny. Some SNP to Labour, some Labour to Reform, and a lot of tory to Reform.
On first inspection the Hamilton results suggest that the Reform vote came largely at the SNP's expense, as well as consuming the remaining Tory support, with the Labour % holding roughly steady. Does that make sense?
I suspect the number of SNP-Reform switchers is tiny. Some SNP to Labour, some Labour to Reform, and a lot of tory to Reform.
Anecdotally, both from our canvassing and I have a friend in the LibDems who related some of their impressions from canvassing (in between fuming at the amount of abuse they were getting from Reform-inclined voters about standing a female, Muslim candidate of South Asian ancestry), the SNP to Reform switch was significant. That may have been in part the absence of Alba, as the SNP is a very broad coalition united only about independence with a lot of voters currently aware that Independence has been stalled - take away Independence from realistic consideration in this by-election (and, add in a desire to send a message to the SNP for not doing more to work towards that goal) and Reform appealed to the Alba-leaning end of the pro-Indy support. Whether pro-Indy voters will continue to lend an ultra-Unionist party like Reform their protest vote when electing people to serve 5 years rather than 11 months is another question that's very difficult to answer. I suspect the hope of progress towards Independence will be more significant next year, and quite a few of those protest votes will return to the SNP.
Thanks for the correction and additional info. I should learn never to underestimate the cognitive dissonance/incoherence of the electorate, particularly swing voters.
A different vibe, certainly. But the cognitive dissonance/incoherence of a large portion of the electorate seems to be a universal feature of democracy. That portion of the electorate that would vote for someone with whom they hold very little in common to "send a message" to the government and/or the party they usually vote for seems to be present everywhere; Reform have benefitted in England, as did Johnson and Trump, and the vote to leave the EU falls into a similar category. Often evidenced by people saying "that's not what I voted for" when they vote someone into power who proceeds to do exactly what they said they would.
He's also said that he'd probably vote to ban the burqa if he was in Parliament for such a vote, but:
"Philosophically I am always a bit uneasy about banning things which, for example, would be unconstitutional in the United States, which such a ban no doubt would be"
I thought Reform was all for British sovereignty (whatever that means) and not being ruled by other nations. Why does he consider the US Constitution to be relevant to UK legislation?
I thought Reform was all for British sovereignty (whatever that means) and not being ruled by other nations. Why does he consider the US Constitution to be relevant to UK legislation?
Likes the idea of Nazi salutes being protected, I assume.
I don't know much, but as far as I can tell most of the Welsh pitheads have been removed and some built on. Certainly the ones in England I know a bit better are now mostly housing.
There's also infrastructure, trains, tracks and ports. Unless Nigel has some magic way to get coal out from underneath housing and to move it around the country when there isn't the equipment to shift it then he's talking out of his arse. One would have thought that sensible people in Merthyr Tydfil would be aware that this promise is impossible.
I don't know much, but as far as I can tell most of the Welsh pitheads have been removed and some built on. Certainly the ones in England I know a bit better are now mostly housing.
There's also infrastructure, trains, tracks and ports. Unless Nigel has some magic way to get coal out from underneath housing and to move it around the country when there isn't the equipment to shift it then he's talking out of his arse. One would have thought that sensible people in Merthyr Tydfil would be aware that this promise is impossible.
I suspect the difficulty is that most of the people in Merthyr who actually knew how mines operate are dead. 50 year old pub bores banging on about it were likely still in school when their local pit closed.
I don't know much, but as far as I can tell most of the Welsh pitheads have been removed and some built on. Certainly the ones in England I know a bit better are now mostly housing.
There's also infrastructure, trains, tracks and ports. Unless Nigel has some magic way to get coal out from underneath housing and to move it around the country when there isn't the equipment to shift it then he's talking out of his arse. One would have thought that sensible people in Merthyr Tydfil would be aware that this promise is impossible.
I suspect the difficulty is that most of the people in Merthyr who actually knew how mines operate are dead. 50 year old pub bores banging on about it were likely still in school when their local pit closed.
I'm pretty sure miners are still alive. The last pit in England closed after 2000, the one I know near Coventry closed in the 1990s. I'm not sure about Wales but I think they were likely still open in the 1990s.
I suspect the main target for Reform are older voters. People over 50 in South Wales must surely have lived through the decommissioning of the coal mines and infrastructure.
I imagine modern mines involve a lot more machines and are probably safer - but surely the immense amount of money it would take to reopen the deep mines and make them usable would be better invested in renewables.
I don't know much, but as far as I can tell most of the Welsh pitheads have been removed and some built on. Certainly the ones in England I know a bit better are now mostly housing.
There's also infrastructure, trains, tracks and ports. Unless Nigel has some magic way to get coal out from underneath housing and to move it around the country when there isn't the equipment to shift it then he's talking out of his arse. One would have thought that sensible people in Merthyr Tydfil would be aware that this promise is impossible.
I suspect the difficulty is that most of the people in Merthyr who actually knew how mines operate are dead. 50 year old pub bores banging on about it were likely still in school when their local pit closed.
I'm pretty sure miners are still alive. The last pit in England closed after 2000, the one I know near Coventry closed in the 1990s. I'm not sure about Wales but I think they were likely still open in the 1990s.
Merthyr's last coal mine closed on Good Friday 1991. A 50 year old today *might* have started work aged 16 the previous summer, and won't have known much about the requirements for a mine in any case. Most of the miners will have been older than that and most, between industrial illness and diseases of poverty, will now be dead.
The managers and the senior technical people, the ones with the real know-how, will be long retired or underground themselves.
That sounds like you're talking about experts. It would be a remarkable change in approach for Reform to start listening to experts, rather than rejoice in their ignorance of whatever subject they are discussing.
The managers and the senior technical people, the ones with the real know-how, will be long retired or underground themselves.
That sounds like you're talking about experts. It would be a remarkable change in approach for Reform to start listening to experts, rather than rejoice in their ignorance of whatever subject they are discussing.
True - I guess I'm thinking like someone who might be serious about something, as opposed to just a gobshite.
Can you imagine Reform suggesting that we actually 'import' technicians and mining engineers from overseas to replace those we have lost?
No, like everything else they come up with it's pure populist bloviating with no substance behind it.
I've engaged in discussion and debate with a few Reform voters recently and it's rather like discussing something with a Flat Earther or someone from a fundamentalist sect. I'd cite the JWs only I don't want to insult the JWs ...
Whatever you say, whatever evidence you present they cover their ears and go 'La la la la la ... I'm not listening!'
We have a byelection here due to the elected Reform candidate changing his mind when he was elected. Looking at the posts on Facebook, people who think the new Reform led county council (who have cancelled all council meetings for this month) are doing a good job have no idea what councillors actually do. The actual councillors appear to be waiting for a steer from Farage as to what their policies will be.
I imagine modern mines involve a lot more machines and are probably safer - but surely the immense amount of money it would take to reopen the deep mines and make them usable would be better invested in renewables.
If I remember correctly a lot of mines were closed because they were worked out. ie it wasn't worth the effort of going after whatever coal might be left. So the massive investment would realise not a lot.
If I remember correctly a lot of mines were closed because they were worked out. ie it wasn't worth the effort of going after whatever coal might be left. So the massive investment would realise not a lot.
Technology has moved on and the relative cost of UK coal compared to coal from other nations has changed, so what didn't pay then may pay now. But as Doublethink says the additional cost of reopening a closed mine may be prohibitive.
I don't know much, but as far as I can tell most of the Welsh pitheads have been removed and some built on. Certainly the ones in England I know a bit better are now mostly housing.
There's also infrastructure, trains, tracks and ports. Unless Nigel has some magic way to get coal out from underneath housing and to move it around the country when there isn't the equipment to shift it then he's talking out of his arse. One would have thought that sensible people in Merthyr Tydfil would be aware that this promise is impossible.
So what he usually talks out of then. Certain Tories wanted to bring back Imperial Measures. Didn’t work and they were in power in a Brexit high. Farage can say what he wants. He is not in central government. He is almost never in his constituency. He is all dead cats to detract from his less liked policies.
If I remember correctly a lot of mines were closed because they were worked out. ie it wasn't worth the effort of going after whatever coal might be left. So the massive investment would realise not a lot.
Technology has moved on and the relative cost of UK coal compared to coal from other nations has changed, so what didn't pay then may pay now. But as Doublethink says the additional cost of reopening a closed mine may be prohibitive.
I doubt anyone has seriously considered the economics of British deep coal mines since EF Schumacher, and of course everything has changed since then.
It is highly unlikely that if British coal was uneconomic in 1991 or 2004 it would suddenly be economic in 2025.
We have a byelection here due to the elected Reform candidate changing his mind when he was elected. Looking at the posts on Facebook, people who think the new Reform led county council (who have cancelled all council meetings for this month) are doing a good job have no idea what councillors actually do. The actual councillors appear to be waiting for a steer from Farage as to what their policies will be.
Indeed.
In my experience as a former Councillor, the Conservatives used to be the worst for exploiting people's lack of knowledge or insight into what councils actually do.
Reform have since exceeded that by a country mile and then some. And then some more.
It's partly because they don't actually know themselves but also far more insidious than that. And then some. And then some more.
PS There are still former miners showing visitors round at the Big Pit Museum and, I think, Rhondda Heritage Park.
PPS What I believe was the last mine in Wales (Ffos-y-Fran) - opencast not a pit - closed about 18 months ago. There is an ongoing row about restoring the land.
Technology has moved on and the relative cost of UK coal compared to coal from other nations has changed, so what didn't pay then may pay now. But as Doublethink says the additional cost of reopening a closed mine may be prohibitive.
I doubt anyone has seriously considered the economics of British deep coal mines since EF Schumacher, and of course everything has changed since then.
It is highly unlikely that if British coal was uneconomic in 1991 or 2004 it would suddenly be economic in 2025.
I had it from an academic economist reflecting on the short-sightedness of Thatcher's industrial policy. It was a couple of decades ago, but more recent than E F Schumacher. He didn't expect coal from Eastern Europe that was cheaper in the 80s to stay cheaper indefinitely.
As noted, whether or not UK coal would be cheaper now if the mines had been maintained, they were not maintained. Reopening a mine that has not been maintained was prohibitively difficult back then and probably still is.
Some former mines now have housing built on top of them, giving a whole new meaning to the phrase 'sink estate.'
The problem wasn't that the mines were closed. The problem was that they were closed with no consideration of what other jobs could be made available in the area and no long-term industrial strategy.
I think the people who are working on using abandoned mines for generating geothermal energy might have a few things to say about the lunacy of trying to resume mining, too.
Some former mines now have housing built on top of them, giving a whole new meaning to the phrase 'sink estate.'
The problem wasn't that the mines were closed. The problem was that they were closed with no consideration of what other jobs could be made available in the area and no long-term industrial strategy.
I think the people who are working on using abandoned mines for generating geothermal energy might have a few things to say about the lunacy of trying to resume mining, too.
And of course, the people who closed the mines were also the people closing down/harming job sectors that could have buoyed mining areas after the mine closures.
If Farage's money is from fossil fuel, someone needs to tell Wales that he's working with the spiritual succesors of the bastards who stole the relief fund money from the dead kiddies at Aberfan.
If Farage's money is from fossil fuel, someone needs to tell Wales that he's working with the spiritual succesors of the bastards who stole the relief fund money from the dead kiddies at Aberfan.
To be honest that strikes me as a bit of a reach.
Anyway, if Wales really cared about not working with the spiritual successors of George Thomas (minister of state and then Secretary of State for Wales), and Lord Robens (the ex minister who chaired the National Coal Board), and Harold Wilson who signed off on it, and Roy Jenkins who devised the ‘solution’ of using the relief fund money on the tip removal….
….they probably wouldn’t have spent the last 59 years mostly voting Labour.
If Farage's money is from fossil fuel, someone needs to tell Wales that he's working with the spiritual succesors of the bastards who stole the relief fund money from the dead kiddies at Aberfan.
To be honest that strikes me as a bit of a reach.
Anyway, if Wales really cared about not working with the spiritual successors of George Thomas (minister of state and then Secretary of State for Wales), and Lord Robens (the ex minister who chaired the National Coal Board), and Harold Wilson who signed off on it, and Roy Jenkins who devised the ‘solution’ of using the relief fund money on the tip removal….
….they probably wouldn’t have spent the last 59 years mostly voting Labour.
Hey, if Farage can be economical with the facts, so can I! But I'd plumb any depths to screw that bastard.
If Farage's money is from fossil fuel, someone needs to tell Wales that he's working with the spiritual succesors of the bastards who stole the relief fund money from the dead kiddies at Aberfan.
Anyway, if Wales really cared about not working with the spiritual successors of George Thomas (minister of state and then Secretary of State for Wales), and Lord Robens (the ex minister who chaired the National Coal Board), and Harold Wilson who signed off on it, and Roy Jenkins who devised the ‘solution’ of using the relief fund money on the tip removal….
I'm sure Reeves has been taking notes. It's right up there with deducting room and board from compensation awarded to people wrongly imprisoned.
Hey, if Farage can be economical with the facts, so can I! But I'd plumb any depths to screw that bastard.
Calling his attitude "economical with the facts" is, itself, a statement that's economical with the facts. The Reform relationship with facts is homeopathic.
Comments
I think we're in total agreement actually - I did find it surprisingly well-written and persuasive, but I wasn't actually persuad*ed* - my final sentence is basically your post! Red Tory - the book - is an elegant (really) fantasy. I imagine Blue Labour is of the same ilk.
I think the commonality is that they both owe a heavy debt to very conservative readings of Catholic Social Teaching
Off the top of my head, I suppose the example from the left is probably something like the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists, but starting with the disadvantage that Tressell/Noonan/Croker wasn't in a position to lead the country, unlike Disraeli.
My apologies to the late Lord Sutch - of course I meant Monster Raving Loony Party.
Fat fingers or damned auto-correct!
Get your act together, Labour!
Reform won by a convincing margin. Voters don't appear to see the discrepancy in voting for a candidate whose stated aim is to axe council services which benefit some of the most vulnerable members of our community.
The victorious candidate is very capable but certainly won't be able to fulfil their cloud-cuckoo land promises about reducing the precept and putting more money in people's pockets.
There is some consolation in the fact that there are sufficient sensible councillors to absorb and minimise the impact.
I bear them no ill will on a personal level but deplore the party they represent and the bottomless promises touted in their campaign.
I don't see the wheels falling off the Farage-mobile just yet but eventually people may realise that the Emperor has no clothes.
Brain bleach needed now
Longer term, it's difficult to forecast (especially from by-election results which are always a bit anomalous), but I hope that the poor performance of councillors (both in Reform councillors failing to even take their seats, and with not getting work done) and the chaos at the top with executive resignations will erode any pretence they can make of being a viable vote for actually getting anything happen. If Reform poll similar proportions next year then there may be some constituencies that go that way (I expect that won't happen), but there will be a significant number of regional Reform MSPs, I'm hoping that we've seen the peak of the Reform wave, and by next year that support will be declining.
The biggest issue is that Reform squeeze support from smaller parties. The media cast this by-election as "will Reform make a break through?" and I suspect that lead to many voters who would naturally vote for one of the smaller parties voting SNP or Labour, not through agreement with their policies but to keep out Reform. Certainly on the doorstep there was a strong binary split caused by Reform, a significant number of people saying they were voting Reform before closing the door on us and a significant number who were concerned about Reform and considering who best to vote for to keep them out. I don't see that changing over the next year, unless Reform totally implode before the election (I can dream).
I suspect the number of SNP-Reform switchers is tiny. Some SNP to Labour, some Labour to Reform, and a lot of tory to Reform.
"Philosophically I am always a bit uneasy about banning things which, for example, would be unconstitutional in the United States, which such a ban no doubt would be"
So, as clear as mud.
Likes the idea of Nazi salutes being protected, I assume.
Like a doddery old fool I took this to be a plausible policy. Turns out Farage has today been talking about opening coal mines.
Who is the doddery old fool now, Nigel?
There's also infrastructure, trains, tracks and ports. Unless Nigel has some magic way to get coal out from underneath housing and to move it around the country when there isn't the equipment to shift it then he's talking out of his arse. One would have thought that sensible people in Merthyr Tydfil would be aware that this promise is impossible.
I suspect the difficulty is that most of the people in Merthyr who actually knew how mines operate are dead. 50 year old pub bores banging on about it were likely still in school when their local pit closed.
Declaration of interest: my grandfather was a miner, until he lost a leg in a pit accident.
I'm pretty sure miners are still alive. The last pit in England closed after 2000, the one I know near Coventry closed in the 1990s. I'm not sure about Wales but I think they were likely still open in the 1990s.
I suspect the main target for Reform are older voters. People over 50 in South Wales must surely have lived through the decommissioning of the coal mines and infrastructure.
Merthyr's last coal mine closed on Good Friday 1991. A 50 year old today *might* have started work aged 16 the previous summer, and won't have known much about the requirements for a mine in any case. Most of the miners will have been older than that and most, between industrial illness and diseases of poverty, will now be dead.
True - I guess I'm thinking like someone who might be serious about something, as opposed to just a gobshite.
No, like everything else they come up with it's pure populist bloviating with no substance behind it.
I've engaged in discussion and debate with a few Reform voters recently and it's rather like discussing something with a Flat Earther or someone from a fundamentalist sect. I'd cite the JWs only I don't want to insult the JWs ...
Whatever you say, whatever evidence you present they cover their ears and go 'La la la la la ... I'm not listening!'
Will people actually listen to Farage?
You bet they will!
If I remember correctly a lot of mines were closed because they were worked out. ie it wasn't worth the effort of going after whatever coal might be left. So the massive investment would realise not a lot.
So what he usually talks out of then. Certain Tories wanted to bring back Imperial Measures. Didn’t work and they were in power in a Brexit high. Farage can say what he wants. He is not in central government. He is almost never in his constituency. He is all dead cats to detract from his less liked policies.
I doubt anyone has seriously considered the economics of British deep coal mines since EF Schumacher, and of course everything has changed since then.
It is highly unlikely that if British coal was uneconomic in 1991 or 2004 it would suddenly be economic in 2025.
Indeed.
In my experience as a former Councillor, the Conservatives used to be the worst for exploiting people's lack of knowledge or insight into what councils actually do.
Reform have since exceeded that by a country mile and then some. And then some more.
It's partly because they don't actually know themselves but also far more insidious than that. And then some. And then some more.
https://nation.cymru/opinion/farage-wants-your-rage-not-your-future/
PS There are still former miners showing visitors round at the Big Pit Museum and, I think, Rhondda Heritage Park.
PPS What I believe was the last mine in Wales (Ffos-y-Fran) - opencast not a pit - closed about 18 months ago. There is an ongoing row about restoring the land.
As noted, whether or not UK coal would be cheaper now if the mines had been maintained, they were not maintained. Reopening a mine that has not been maintained was prohibitively difficult back then and probably still is.
The problem wasn't that the mines were closed. The problem was that they were closed with no consideration of what other jobs could be made available in the area and no long-term industrial strategy.
I think the people who are working on using abandoned mines for generating geothermal energy might have a few things to say about the lunacy of trying to resume mining, too.
And of course, the people who closed the mines were also the people closing down/harming job sectors that could have buoyed mining areas after the mine closures.
To be honest that strikes me as a bit of a reach.
Anyway, if Wales really cared about not working with the spiritual successors of George Thomas (minister of state and then Secretary of State for Wales), and Lord Robens (the ex minister who chaired the National Coal Board), and Harold Wilson who signed off on it, and Roy Jenkins who devised the ‘solution’ of using the relief fund money on the tip removal….
….they probably wouldn’t have spent the last 59 years mostly voting Labour.
Hey, if Farage can be economical with the facts, so can I! But I'd plumb any depths to screw that bastard.
I'm sure Reeves has been taking notes. It's right up there with deducting room and board from compensation awarded to people wrongly imprisoned.