It works best if it slowly speeds up, verse by verse.
Gets it over with I suppose.
I knew a chap who refused to play it many years ago. He played all the other songs that Sunday...
The faux hebraic songs that were in fashion in the 70s and 80s do seem to have died a death.
It works best if it slowly speeds up, verse by verse.
Gets it over with I suppose.
I knew a chap who refused to play it many years ago. He played all the other songs that Sunday...
The faux hebraic songs that were in fashion in the 70s and 80s do seem to have died a death.
One of the verses of the spoof version goes "They often have a somewhat Jewish melody"
@Piglet Am I missing something, would you not need the full music version for the choir and leave the melody only (or even words only) for the congregation?
The "choir", such as it is, is just a few people who sit at the back* of the church and sing the melody. None of them claims to be able to read music, and while they can hold the melody if there's someone singing it strongly enough, I don't think any of the ladies could really make much sense of an alto part. The guitarist's wife, who is also one of the volunteer organists, sometimes adds a bit of harmony the chorusy type songs, which is nice, but she's not always available.
As I maybe mentioned above, the gentlemen** sometimes add tenor or bass, but in a rather approximate fashion. From that perspective, I don't reckon full score books would be of much value.
* There's no space at the front, and no choir stalls; the most sensible place for the singers is at the back, where we can drive the singing from behind, as it were!
** sadly, one of our two gentlemen is unwell and not coming to church just now. He's also 93, and although still not a bad singer, I suspect we may not have his company again.
The difference between the American assumption that the congregation can read music and benefit from a full score while in the UK we can't even expect the choir to be able to read music is striking.
We teach this stuff in school so I don't understand why.
I honestly can't remember whether I was taught to read music in school, or when I started having piano lessons (at about age 7). It may have been a bit of both.
The difference between the American assumption that the congregation can read music and benefit from a full score . . . .
I don’t know that the American assumption is quite that the congregation as a whole can read music. I think it’s more an assumption that a reasonable percentage of people in a congregation can read music, and that them having the music will help the congregation as a whole. I think there’s also an assumption that among those who can’t read music, they can still see that notes go up or down and can see things like when syllables are spread over more than one note. I’ve heard people in our congregation say that they don’t like it when just the words are printed in the bulletin (unless the tune is familiar) because even though they don’t read music as such, having the music is helpful to them for those reasons.
I would be surprised if anyone in the last 30 years has learned to read music in non-specialist UK state schools.
*waves*
I did. Bog standard comp with a socioeconomically mixed intake.
I would, however, point out that there is a huge gap between learning how to read music and being able to sight read or to hold a harmony line with confidence. I do sometimes wonder whether teaching choral singing would be a more productive use of mainstream school music lessons than trying to half-arse teaching composition and musical analysis.
I would, however, point out that there is a huge gap between learning how to read music and being able to sight read or to hold a harmony line with confidence.
To be clear, I’d say it’s very rare here that an average person in the congregation sings harmony. But it’s there (unless the hymn is intended to be sung in unison) for those who want it.
And historically at least, buying a hymnal to have at home was pretty common. There was a reasonable segment of people who wouldn’t sing the harmony lines, but who’d play hymns on the piano at home.
I do sometimes wonder whether teaching choral singing would be a more productive use of mainstream school music lessons than trying to half-arse teaching composition and musical analysis.
Here it’s singing (not necessarily choral singing) and playing recorders in elementary school. (Second grade, around age 7, is when our kids did recorders.). “Hot Cross Buns” seems to be the universally-learned song for recorders.
Here it’s singing (not necessarily choral singing) and playing recorders in elementary school. (Second grade, around age 7, is when our kids did recorders.). “Hot Cross Buns” seems to be the universally-learned song for recorders.
An aside to UK people who may be scratching their heads here...our tune for 'Hot Cross Buns' is completely different to the American one (which is on just 3 notes) in fact it includes octave leaps, not suitable material for a beginner on the recorder!
Here it’s singing (not necessarily choral singing) and playing recorders in elementary school. (Second grade, around age 7, is when our kids did recorders.). “Hot Cross Buns” seems to be the universally-learned song for recorders.
An aside to UK people who may be scratching their heads here...our tune for 'Hot Cross Buns' is completely different to the American one (which is on just 3 notes) in fact it includes octave leaps, not suitable material for a beginner on the recorder!
Thanks, @Gracious Rebel. I didn’t know that. Yes, the tune here is about easy as it gets.
"use staff and other relevant notations appropriately and accurately in a range of
musical styles, genres and traditions"
That's Key Stage 3, so before students choose their GCSE options.
That is, of course, the curriculum in England. In Scotland the relevant Experiences and Outcomes make notation optional (this one is 2nd level, i.e. upper primary, but the and/or for musical notation remains all the way up to 4th level): I can sing and play music
from a range of styles and
cultures, showing skill and
using performance
directions, and/or musical
notation.
Oh wow, I had no idea. There you go. Certainly didn't happen in my day (1980s mostly), though I suppose it might have done through learning the recorder, for those who went through that right of passage. I'd already learned via the piano - my great-aunt might have taught me, or I might have more or less taught myself, since I don't think I started piano lessons until I was 7, though it may have been younger than that.
Sadly, the music education I have seen in a few schools in the last couple of years is very limited. Yes it does show a range of styles, but very limited in teaching notation.
I remember when we were considering the new Lutheran hymnal, the then pastor of the congregation asked the question, why restrict ourselves to 700+ hymns when there is upward of 600,000 hymns available online with more being produced every year.
If you sing three or four hymns per service, times 52 services per year plus a few extras for Christmas and Easter, you'll be dead long before you can sing your way through 600,000 hymns, most of which are bad.
There is real value in having a list that someone else has curated, of hymns that are reasonably singable, sound in theology, and either familiar or likely to become familiar to others of your denomination.
I remember when we were considering the new Lutheran hymnal, the then pastor of the congregation asked the question, why restrict ourselves to 700+ hymns when there is upward of 600,000 hymns available online with more being produced every year.
If you sing three or four hymns per service, times 52 services per year plus a few extras for Christmas and Easter, you'll be dead long before you can sing your way through 600,000 hymns, most of which are bad.
There is real value in having a list that someone else has curated, of hymns that are reasonably singable, sound in theology, and either familiar or likely to become familiar to others of your denomination.
As I said, we did end up purchasing the new hymnal when it came out, but we are not restricted to it. We do like the familiar, but it is good to add a little bit of spice or other type of flavoring to keep it fresh.
As someone who works in music education sadly those curriculum aims are a tad fanciful. Some schools seem to have the arts on a rotation basis in KS3 - a term of art, followed by a term of drama, followed by a term of music.
Handing out hymn books with the melody in would be quite a class related statement in much of the UK. But a genuine help to some to be fair.
Many folk can pick songs and hymns up well by ear if well led. But many can't or perhaps believe they can't.
Yes, I can pick up a tune really easily by ear; I doubt if having the melody would be of any use to me.
I agree with you about the class issue (as a working class Lutonian living in a very middle class Cambridge). I have previously said on here that I see the ability to read music as a potential class indicator (obviously not always, schools vary).
That is also very much my experience as a working-class person who sings by ear. That said, music lessons at my secondary school weren't too bad and my own neurodiversities were the main things preventing me from learning how to read music.
Here it’s singing (not necessarily choral singing) and playing recorders in elementary school. (Second grade, around age 7, is when our kids did recorders.). “Hot Cross Buns” seems to be the universally-learned song for recorders.
An aside to UK people who may be scratching their heads here...our tune for 'Hot Cross Buns' is completely different to the American one (which is on just 3 notes) in fact it includes octave leaps, not suitable material for a beginner on the recorder!
I have definitely heard beginners playing Hot Cross Buns on the recorder in the UK. It's not *that* complicated. I just looked up the US tune though - wow, why is it so funereal??
As someone who works in music education sadly those curriculum aims are a tad fanciful. Some schools seem to have the arts on a rotation basis in KS3 - a term of art, followed by a term of drama, followed by a term of music.
Handing out hymn books with the melody in would be quite a class related statement in much of the UK. But a genuine help to some to be fair.
Many folk can pick songs and hymns up well by ear if well led. But many can't or perhaps believe they can't.
For me it's very helpful. Imagine the scene. First time at an unfamiliar church; sung Eucharist. A setting I'm not familiar with. But gods be praised! They've printed the dots in a handout or in the service sheet. I can join in properly rather than mumbling my best guess as to where the tune will go next or keeping mum. Ditto the unfamiliar hymn. It's very welcoming for me as a music reader to have those dots.
Here it’s singing (not necessarily choral singing) and playing recorders in elementary school. (Second grade, around age 7, is when our kids did recorders.). “Hot Cross Buns” seems to be the universally-learned song for recorders.
An aside to UK people who may be scratching their heads here...our tune for 'Hot Cross Buns' is completely different to the American one (which is on just 3 notes) in fact it includes octave leaps, not suitable material for a beginner on the recorder!
I have definitely heard beginners playing Hot Cross Buns on the recorder in the UK. It's not *that* complicated. I just looked up the US tune though - wow, why is it so funereal??
My goodness! Just looked it up - did Morrissey write it?
My goodness! Just looked it up - did Morrissey write it?
What are y’all listening to? I mean, it’s ridiculously simple and boring, especially when played by a beginner on the recorder, but I’m struggling to imagine how it’s funereal or Morrissey-esque.
I agree Gramps - much as I dislike the happy-clappy stuff, it looks like it's going to be part of the repertoire, so all I can do is try and make sure it doesn't take over completely!
I am with you about happy clappy, but I think GIA and OCP have some decent music that is not necessarily that type of stuff.
Here in Chicago, the RC parishes with the better choirs and organists tend to use GIA's Worship IV hymnal; others like the one in my neighborhood with the long-dormant organ replaced by a Casio keyboard are more likely OCP shacks. Just my utterly unscientific observation.
My goodness! Just looked it up - did Morrissey write it?
What are y’all listening to? I mean, it’s ridiculously simple and boring, especially when played by a beginner on the recorder, but I’m struggling to imagine how it’s funereal or Morrissey-esque.
This is the UK version, which is a lot jauntier. The US version sounds very monotone in comparison.
My goodness! Just looked it up - did Morrissey write it?
What are y’all listening to? I mean, it’s ridiculously simple and boring, especially when played by a beginner on the recorder, but I’m struggling to imagine how it’s funereal or Morrissey-esque.
This is the UK version, which is a lot jauntier. The US version sounds very monotone in comparison.
Monotone I’d agree with; I’ve said the American version is boring.
But boring isn’t the same as “funereal.” It was that word and the comparison to Morrissey that weren’t really registering as apt descriptors of how I’ve ever heard the American version, and that led me to ask what recording of the American version led you to describe the American tune that way.
Sadly, the music education I have seen in a few schools in the last couple of years is very limited. Yes it does show a range of styles, but very limited in teaching notation.
A few years ago I read an article by John Rutter about the lack of singing in schools. He said something to the effect that in the past, most primary schools had at least one teacher who was reasonably competent on the piano to accompany some hymns or simple folk songs.
I'm a Governor at a state primary school in a deprived part of Cardiff. I don't know if musical notation is taught, but there is certainly a choir and at least one competent pianist among the staff.
Young people by and large do not listen to the kind of music that involves using notation. Much of it is constructed electronically. So there is little impetus to buy instruments and learn the required notation to play them.
25 years ago our church had a music group that contained teenage competent violinists, flautists and a clarinet. All were taught in state schools by peripatetic teachers. Then it was all cut back in schools and we now have a single beginner guitarist among a bunch of men in their 60s and 70s.
The ability to have access to musical instruments and people to teach learners has become the preserve of those who can afford to pay.
How many organs do you know that sit slowly rotting in churches because there is nobody to play them and no money to keep them in playing order?
Preacher son learned to play saxophone. 2nd son learned xylophone. 3rd son drums. All started around 11 years old. Daughter sang in choir while in grade school. Three of them still actively involved in music.
Music is so important in developing better cognition; learning discipline; and social cooperation. Once schools drop it, overall test scores drop. Very hard to bring music back into curriculum when it is gone.
I've probably mentioned this elsewhere before, but when I was growing up in Orkney in the 1970s, every child in the county had at least one class music lesson a week (even in the small outer islands; those in the towns had more). This was in large part due to my dad, who was the director of education and regarded music as an essential element of the curriculum.
Any child who wanted to could learn an orchestral instrument, and instruments were provided by the Council to those who couldn't afford to buy their own. (Piano lessons were taken privately).
The schools had choirs, orchestras, wind bands, brass bands ...
The idea of music being on a rotation with art and drama would fill me with horror!
When Dad retired, his successor cut the music staff drastically, which didn't endear him to the staff (or probably the children).
My apologies - that was a rather nostalgic, self-indulgent tangent!
Nostalgic, yes. My school, in Fife, was the same. Orchestra, wind band, fantastic brass band, choir etc. And children for ever being excused classes for their musical instrument lesson. And weekly class lessons. And schools were bigger then, at the end of the baby boom, so there were many more children than now to accommodate. My secondary school had 3000 pupils! And was by no means unusual.
Preacher son learned to play saxophone. 2nd son learned xylophone. 3rd son drums. All started around 11 years old. Daughter sang in choir while in grade school. Three of them still actively involved in music.
Music is so important in developing better cognition; learning discipline; and social cooperation. Once schools drop it, overall test scores drop. Very hard to bring music back into curriculum when it is gone.
I remember someone saying once that music is team sport for people who don’t do sport. I totally get that.
Preacher son learned to play saxophone. 2nd son learned xylophone. 3rd son drums. All started around 11 years old. Daughter sang in choir while in grade school. Three of them still actively involved in music.
Music is so important in developing better cognition; learning discipline; and social cooperation. Once schools drop it, overall test scores drop. Very hard to bring music back into curriculum when it is gone.
I remember someone saying once that music is team sport for people who don’t do sport. I totally get that.
We were able to get awards similar to an athletic award in my day.
I think the concentration on core academic subjects is pushing other subjects to the margins.
Well it is exam results in core subjects that dictate the all important place on the league tables. That really matters to schools.
We don't have league tables in Scotland, and even the classic "5 good Highers" beloved of the tory unionist press includes any and all subjects. Expressive arts, and technologies, are still seen as nice-to-haves rather than essential parts of the curriculum.
I would passionately contend against the idea of music in particular and the arts in general as being "non-academic".
Me too. Our local orchestra the Liverpool Phil have for several years been giving instrumental and singing lessons in one of the most socially deprived local primary schools. Attainment across the board has rocketed.
Comments
Gets it over with I suppose.
I knew a chap who refused to play it many years ago. He played all the other songs that Sunday...
The faux hebraic songs that were in fashion in the 70s and 80s do seem to have died a death.
One of the verses of the spoof version goes "They often have a somewhat Jewish melody"
As I maybe mentioned above, the gentlemen** sometimes add tenor or bass, but in a rather approximate fashion. From that perspective, I don't reckon full score books would be of much value.
* There's no space at the front, and no choir stalls; the most sensible place for the singers is at the back, where we can drive the singing from behind, as it were!
** sadly, one of our two gentlemen is unwell and not coming to church just now. He's also 93, and although still not a bad singer, I suspect we may not have his company again.
We teach this stuff in school so I don't understand why.
*waves*
I did. Bog standard comp with a socioeconomically mixed intake.
I would, however, point out that there is a huge gap between learning how to read music and being able to sight read or to hold a harmony line with confidence. I do sometimes wonder whether teaching choral singing would be a more productive use of mainstream school music lessons than trying to half-arse teaching composition and musical analysis.
And historically at least, buying a hymnal to have at home was pretty common. There was a reasonable segment of people who wouldn’t sing the harmony lines, but who’d play hymns on the piano at home.
Here it’s singing (not necessarily choral singing) and playing recorders in elementary school. (Second grade, around age 7, is when our kids did recorders.). “Hot Cross Buns” seems to be the universally-learned song for recorders.
All three of mine did.
If kids aren't, the schools are failing to deliver the curriculum:
Source: GOV.UK https://share.google/CXot4jbkyzIEv4VkO
"use staff and other relevant notations appropriately and accurately in a range of
musical styles, genres and traditions"
That's Key Stage 3, so before students choose their GCSE options.
That is, of course, the curriculum in England. In Scotland the relevant Experiences and Outcomes make notation optional (this one is 2nd level, i.e. upper primary, but the and/or for musical notation remains all the way up to 4th level):
I can sing and play music
from a range of styles and
cultures, showing skill and
using performance
directions, and/or musical
notation.
https://education.gov.scot/media/ogyjyehk/expressive-arts-eo.pdf
Thats fine if the school can recruit specialist music teachers.
If you sing three or four hymns per service, times 52 services per year plus a few extras for Christmas and Easter, you'll be dead long before you can sing your way through 600,000 hymns, most of which are bad.
There is real value in having a list that someone else has curated, of hymns that are reasonably singable, sound in theology, and either familiar or likely to become familiar to others of your denomination.
As I said, we did end up purchasing the new hymnal when it came out, but we are not restricted to it. We do like the familiar, but it is good to add a little bit of spice or other type of flavoring to keep it fresh.
Handing out hymn books with the melody in would be quite a class related statement in much of the UK. But a genuine help to some to be fair.
Many folk can pick songs and hymns up well by ear if well led. But many can't or perhaps believe they can't.
I agree with you about the class issue (as a working class Lutonian living in a very middle class Cambridge). I have previously said on here that I see the ability to read music as a potential class indicator (obviously not always, schools vary).
I have definitely heard beginners playing Hot Cross Buns on the recorder in the UK. It's not *that* complicated. I just looked up the US tune though - wow, why is it so funereal??
For me it's very helpful. Imagine the scene. First time at an unfamiliar church; sung Eucharist. A setting I'm not familiar with. But gods be praised! They've printed the dots in a handout or in the service sheet. I can join in properly rather than mumbling my best guess as to where the tune will go next or keeping mum. Ditto the unfamiliar hymn. It's very welcoming for me as a music reader to have those dots.
My goodness! Just looked it up - did Morrissey write it?
Here in Chicago, the RC parishes with the better choirs and organists tend to use GIA's Worship IV hymnal; others like the one in my neighborhood with the long-dormant organ replaced by a Casio keyboard are more likely OCP shacks. Just my utterly unscientific observation.
This is the UK version, which is a lot jauntier. The US version sounds very monotone in comparison.
But boring isn’t the same as “funereal.” It was that word and the comparison to Morrissey that weren’t really registering as apt descriptors of how I’ve ever heard the American version, and that led me to ask what recording of the American version led you to describe the American tune that way.
A few years ago I read an article by John Rutter about the lack of singing in schools. He said something to the effect that in the past, most primary schools had at least one teacher who was reasonably competent on the piano to accompany some hymns or simple folk songs.
Curriculum link: https://tinyurl.com/4tmm3wed
25 years ago our church had a music group that contained teenage competent violinists, flautists and a clarinet. All were taught in state schools by peripatetic teachers. Then it was all cut back in schools and we now have a single beginner guitarist among a bunch of men in their 60s and 70s.
The ability to have access to musical instruments and people to teach learners has become the preserve of those who can afford to pay.
How many organs do you know that sit slowly rotting in churches because there is nobody to play them and no money to keep them in playing order?
Music is so important in developing better cognition; learning discipline; and social cooperation. Once schools drop it, overall test scores drop. Very hard to bring music back into curriculum when it is gone.
I've probably mentioned this elsewhere before, but when I was growing up in Orkney in the 1970s, every child in the county had at least one class music lesson a week (even in the small outer islands; those in the towns had more). This was in large part due to my dad, who was the director of education and regarded music as an essential element of the curriculum.
Any child who wanted to could learn an orchestral instrument, and instruments were provided by the Council to those who couldn't afford to buy their own. (Piano lessons were taken privately).
The schools had choirs, orchestras, wind bands, brass bands ...
The idea of music being on a rotation with art and drama would fill me with horror!
When Dad retired, his successor cut the music staff drastically, which didn't endear him to the staff (or probably the children).
My apologies - that was a rather nostalgic, self-indulgent tangent!
I remember someone saying once that music is team sport for people who don’t do sport. I totally get that.
We were able to get awards similar to an athletic award in my day.
Well it is exam results in core subjects that dictate the all important place on the league tables. That really matters to schools.
STEM fundamentalism and the Ebac
We don't have league tables in Scotland, and even the classic "5 good Highers" beloved of the tory unionist press includes any and all subjects. Expressive arts, and technologies, are still seen as nice-to-haves rather than essential parts of the curriculum.
Me too. Our local orchestra the Liverpool Phil have for several years been giving instrumental and singing lessons in one of the most socially deprived local primary schools. Attainment across the board has rocketed.