Becoming tasteless in Matthew 5:13

LeafLeaf Shipmate
I fell into a nerdhole while reading Matthew 5:13. The NRSV translation:

"You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot."

The word translated as "has lost its taste" is μωρανθῇ .

I had notes indicating that 'tasteless' has a similar connotation in koine Greek as it does in modern English: 'crude, foolish.' My good old Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich lexicon backs me up on this.

The root word is... "moron." If you can pick out the first five letters in the Greek word above, you can see it.

Even the salt of the earth can be broken down and become tasteless, crude, foolish. I can't think of a convenient word to translate this, but it's effectively "moronized." It seems to me to be the human behaviour equivalent of what Cory Doctorow refers to, when discussing products and services, as "enshittified."

TikTok pranks seem to me an example of moronization, with the capacity to break down what is good and useful and wise into what is tasteless and foolish.

I haven't yet tackled the word ἁλισθήσεται - "resalinated"? Idk. I welcome your comments!

Comments

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I use 'moronicity' to describe habits of thought that alas are all too prevalent in public life. Perhaps habitual lack of thought might be a better description.

  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Leaf wrote: »
    Even the salt of the earth can be broken down and become tasteless, crude, foolish. I can't think of a convenient word to translate this, but it's effectively "moronized."

    Or "Not Mortonized!

    Yes, okay, a silly joke, but used only because my knowledge of Koine Greek is virtually nonexistent.

    Still, I get the underlying sense that the salt that loses taste is worthless, and to be thrown away. The "how can the saltiness be restored" is presented as an impossibility. It can't be. Just toss it out.

    From that, perspective, though, the analogy does not quite work with human beings: a worthless person can potentially become worthy. It is not an impossibility. St. Paul, for example.

    Actually, a LOT of the saints, when I stop to think about it...

    Still, I don't think that is what Jesus is aiming for in this sermon. He is not trying to suggest the worthless are irredeemable, but rather he is encouraging the faithful to stay faithful, to remain the light on the hill, etc.


  • Leaf wrote: »
    Even the salt of the earth can be broken down and become tasteless, crude, foolish. I can't think of a convenient word to translate this, but it's effectively "moronized." It seems to me to be the human behaviour equivalent of what Cory Doctorow refers to, when discussing products and services, as "enshittified."
    Insipid? The Etymology Online Dictionary gives this etymology:
    1610s, “without taste or perceptible flavor,” from French insipide “insipid” (16c.), from Late Latin inspidus “tasteless,” from in- “not” (see in- (1)) + Latin sapidus “tasty,” from sapere “have a taste” (also “be wise;” see sapient). Figurative meaning “uninteresting, dull” first recorded in English 1640s, probably from Medieval Latin or the Romance languages, where it was a secondary sense.
    The connection between insipid and sapience is interesting in this context, I think, as it etymologically combines ideas of lack of taste with lack of wisdom or discernment in the word.


  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    One of my friends shared this with me

    Pure salt, sodium chloride, can’t become unsalty; but the sodium chloride of impure salt can be leached out, especially in humid weather, and the remaining substance can be tasteless. This “salt” cannot become salty again. When the purity of our faith is adulterated, the pure “salt” may slowly slip away leaving us with a “tasteless” faith and it may be impossible to restore the pure one.

    Salt that isn’t salty is foolish or moronic or useless salt, which could be the similar to saying Christians who aren’t seeking the virtues of the last five beatitudes (or, in other words, “to fulfill all righteousness”) are foolish or moronic or useless Christians. They are good for nothing except being trampled on by others.

    Why “salt”? There are numerous references to salt and its different uses in the Old Testament. Beyond these, perhaps like the mustard seed and light, salt, though very small, can be quite powerful. One tiny crystal of salt can be tasted. It doesn’t take too much extra salt to ruin a recipe.

    Perhaps, to stretch the salt analogy, as salt can make food taste better, so we are to “add spice to life” – helping others improve their lives; but as too much salt can ruin the good food, sometimes too much help or pushing our faith too much, can destroy the good we are trying to accomplish. Helpers can become enablers. One’s self can be lost in co-dependent relationships.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    The connection between insipid and sapience is interesting in this context, I think, as it etymologically combines ideas of lack of taste with lack of wisdom or discernment in the word.

    Ooh another lovely rabbit hole! Thank you so much!
  • Merry VoleMerry Vole Shipmate
    edited February 7
    I know The Message paraphrase is like Marmite (ie love it or hate it!) but here goes:

    "Let me tell you why you are here. You're here to be salt-seasoning that brings out the God-flavors of this earth. If you lose your saltiness, how will people taste godliness? You've lost your usefulness and will end up in the garbage."

    I don't think we should use this to induce guilt in anyone. It's up to God to judge 'usefulness'.
    People who try and live faithfully , generously ,charitably etc are 'salt' and Jesus encourages us that this flows from Him and will be part of how 'all are saved'.

  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    Merry Vole wrote: »
    I don't think we should use this to induce guilt in anyone. It's up to God to judge 'usefulness'.

    I agree with this, but disagree with the following, based on the text:
    People who try and live faithfully , generously ,charitably etc are 'salt' and Jesus encourages us that this flows from Him and will be part of how 'all are saved'.

    Jesus declared to a bunch of random people in a crowd, "You are the salt of the earth." Nobody said anything about whether they had tried to live faithfully etc (although obviously they should.) There is no indication from the text that the crowd were any more or less worthy than any other random people. Yet Jesus called them the salt of the earth.

    Even more amazing: it's pretty common to hear Jesus referred to as "the light of the world." Here he turns again to the random crowd and says "No, YOU. You are the light of the world." Which is a pretty amazing thing to say to an ordinary crowd.

  • Not random people--he went up a hill, and "his disciples came to him there" (Matthew 5:1). Which makes a bit more sense. They are the salt of the earth, the light of the world, even though all too often they don't live up to that. Nevertheless, they are on the Way.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    @Lamb Chopped , we are definitely reading that differently.

    Matthew 5:1: When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him.

    [Sermon on the Mount]

    Matthew 7:28: Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at his teaching
    Matthew 8:1: When Jesus had come down from the mountain, great crowds followed him

    I read that as the crowds having been present to hear the Sermon on the Mount. Why would the crowds have been astonished at his teaching if they had not heard it?
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    The rabbit holes in this thread are irresistible. Via the American poet Elizabeth Willis (who was raised in a Mormon family from Utah although she left the church as an adult), I came across a conversation about salt that has intrigued me for a couple of years.

    The Mormon elder Boyd C Packer was on a plane flight and sitting next to an atheist who asked him to describe the Holy Spirit. Packer countered this by asking the atheist how he would describe the taste of salt to somebody who had never tasted salt. The atheist was stumped, could only say, well, it is not sweet or sour. Packer turned to him and said, "My friend, in a spiritual sense, I have tasted salt."
  • @Leaf . Thanks for pointing this out.
  • Leaf wrote: »
    @Lamb Chopped , we are definitely reading that differently.

    Matthew 5:1: When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him.

    [Sermon on the Mount]

    Matthew 7:28: Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at his teaching
    Matthew 8:1: When Jesus had come down from the mountain, great crowds followed him

    I read that as the crowds having been present to hear the Sermon on the Mount. Why would the crowds have been astonished at his teaching if they had not heard it?
    Leaf wrote: »
    @Lamb Chopped , we are definitely reading that differently.

    Matthew 5:1: When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him.

    [Sermon on the Mount]

    Matthew 7:28: Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at his teaching
    Matthew 8:1: When Jesus had come down from the mountain, great crowds followed him

    I read that as the crowds having been present to hear the Sermon on the Mount. Why would the crowds have been astonished at his teaching if they had not heard it?

    I take it that the disciples came to him first and gathered around him --closest in and the ones he was primarily addressing--and the crowds very naturally followed and filled up whatever space remained. I suspect that happened a lot, any time in fact when Jesus chose to address his disciples in public. And of course "disciples" most likely means more than the twelve here.
  • Leaf wrote: »
    @Lamb Chopped , we are definitely reading that differently.

    Matthew 5:1: When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him.

    [Sermon on the Mount]

    Matthew 7:28: Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at his teaching
    Matthew 8:1: When Jesus had come down from the mountain, great crowds followed him

    I read that as the crowds having been present to hear the Sermon on the Mount. Why would the crowds have been astonished at his teaching if they had not heard it?
    I take it that the disciples came to him first and gathered around him --closest in and the ones he was primarily addressing--and the crowds very naturally followed and filled up whatever space remained.
    Interesting. I read it the other way, like @Leaf does, I think—the crowd gathered, Jesus moved to where they could hear him when he spoke, and the disciples gathered around him, sort of like his entourage, as he started speaking to the crowd.

    To be honest, my mental picture is of the disciples standing with him, facing the crowd while he addresses the crowd. I definitely read it as the crowd is the primary audience.


  • I take it that the disciples came to him first and gathered around him --closest in and the ones he was primarily addressing--and the crowds very naturally followed and filled up whatever space remained. I suspect that happened a lot, any time in fact when Jesus chose to address his disciples in public.
    That seems to be the clear reading of 5:1-2.

  • I take it that the disciples came to him first and gathered around him --closest in and the ones he was primarily addressing--and the crowds very naturally followed and filled up whatever space remained. I suspect that happened a lot, any time in fact when Jesus chose to address his disciples in public.
    That seems to be the clear reading of 5:1-2.
    But then you have Matthew 7:28–29:
    Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astounded at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

    It’s clear there he was teaching the crowd, not that they were overhearing or listening in on what he taught the disciples.


  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited February 8
    I have done a very quick check, from what I can tell the Greek seems to imply:
    • Jesus sees the crowds
    • Jesus goes up the mountain
    • Jesus' disciples gather around Jesus
    • he teaches "them"

    What is not clear is who "them" is. Jesus' seeing the crowds seems to take place before he climbs the mountain. In English, it would refer to the nearest group of people mentioned, so the disciples, but Koine Greek ain't English. I have been caught out by that, which is how I know that rule.

    I have always seen it as Jesus teaching his disciples with a sort of Chinese whispers system going on as well! That could be my English bias.

    What intrigues me is that I realise the structure may imply that this is teaching given to the disciples in response to the crowd, rather than directed at the crowd. Does someone who climbs a high mountain to hear Jesus teach automatically get classed as a disciple? I am learning that in the Gospels, disciples do not equate to Apostles, but to a wider group who were more committed than the crowds.
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