A boy in a dress

LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
edited March 1 in Epiphanies
I feel like I cant speak to this in Purgatory without getting into Epiphanies issues

Risk of person who thinks nobody who isnt a woman should wear a dress getting beat up for that - basically zero. If they bring it up they might get disapproved of or told that's bigoted but nobody will physically beat them up or spit on them for their gendered dressing habits and they can go about their ordinary business wearing their preferred garments without harm.

Risk of man or non binary person or other person not read as a woman getting beaten up or otherwise nastily accosted in public for wearing a dress- a significant risk and I know and am close to people who are closeted because of it - and I am angry when I think of the increased risk of violence to my loved ones caused by those who stoked the anti-transgender moral panic which helps legitimise this kind of violence.

People who disapprove of a boy in a dress are not at anything like the same risk as he is and thanks to the recent wave of anti-trans propaganda, he is at much greater risk.

So while yes people have a right to not dress in a dress or to disapprove of those they read as male wearing a dress, in practice the way many of them have gone about it has endangered people and does real harm - it's very far from harmless

So those who go about trying to make out a boy in a dress is harming people while ignoring the harm these attitudes cause are in my book overlooking the 'power' and bullying side of the question. Anti-trans attitudes are often expressed this way and they have powerful political and media interests behind them. Those making a fuss about a boy in a dress are siding with the bullies and moral panickers against people who yes are in practice harmless and not coming for anyone else's right to dress as they see fit. This isnt a ' both sides' question, it's one of asymmetrical damage - gender nonconforming people are at far greater risk.

Comments

  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    So... um... other than "yep, I agree," what's the discussion possibility here? It kind of feels more like a Hell call regarding people who think otherwise (I agree with you here--I'm just wondering where exactly this can go as a thread).
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    There are folk in Purgatory that dont agree or seem like they dont - that's why I posted it as there seem to be people who genuinely want to talk about a boy wearing a dress as something harmful.
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    edited March 1
    Pardon me while I sarcastically lay my cards on the table. This is my experience and I am very angry on behalf of people I know personally, and am protective of because I am a good friend and a good ally and I don't let my friends down...

    I've also seen the same. People seem to have a problem with queer folks existing.

    I don't get it. I grew up in a moderately homophobic environment. And even when I was a lesser homophobe myself, I could not get my head around why people were so upset by the notion of two men engaging in coitus. If a crime, it's a victimless crime that only harms the perpetrators. And God knows I knew lots of mean straight cis people who'd happily slander a faggot while slaking their own heterosexual lust.

    And it has been a long time since you could persuade this straight white boy that gay sex was a crime.

    Trans folks are, to me, much the same. Let people conduct their lives in peace. They'll happily return the favor. I got lots of friends who are trans and NB and whatnot, wonderful folks. Never gave me any trouble in spite of my being a Christian straight cis white guy. Don't get what all the fuss is about. Or maybe I do, but...

    I could provide some sarcastic attempts to describe the rationalizations I think I hear from conservatives in their "defense," but that would be underhanded.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    My church defines itself as an ally of oppressed people. We have one very active trans member who organized a service on Transgender Day of Remembrance on November 20 honoring and memorializing trans people who have been murdered. They started with verbally naming people in the US who have suffered and died, and then the church walls were covered with the names and likenesses of people who have suffered around the world. The images and spoken words of these folks hit me across the skull! What is with people who are so threatened by people who need to exist as themselves!? This is an important thread.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    When Mrs. Gramps and I first moved to this community there was a male cross dresser who was widely accepted in the community, but then we live in a college town. The person has now gone on, though.

    The University of Idaho Marching Band's Tuba Section also has long used long dresses, regardless of the sex/gender of the player. The story is several years ago band members were cleaning out some old costumes from the early 1900s when they came across these long cheerleading dresses--like down to mid-calf. On a lark, the Tuba players used them at a game, and it took off from there. Something to see husky men with these long dresses.
  • LatchKeyKidLatchKeyKid Shipmate
    My country town has a history since the dawning of the Age Of Aquarius of people being comfortable with people who dress differently. For many years our monthly market had a coffee/cake stall with a pretty unkempt bloke who wore dresses. I think he used the name Beauty - or at least that was what people called him, without a hint of irony. And he would have dressed the same at the other villages/towns the market went to. But I suspect boys might get a different treatment.

    But we have other people in town who stand out because of their unconventional dress.

    When we hosted a Syrian Sunni Moslem family in our guest accommodation for 10 weeks we were concerned how people would react to the women wearing hijabs. We needn't have worried, because people in the street just said "Hi" and maybe asked them how they were going.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Over the last decade I've been privileged to watch a few of my friends doing gender-neutral child-rearing, raising their children without imposing gender stereotypes, roles or expectations. The hardest kind of parenting IMO but many other parents at their children's schools and playgroups have adopted the same practices because they've seen how confident and uninhibited the children have become growing up without gender-bound restrictions and limits.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited March 2
    A boy in a dress is not a trans person, and I think it is probably important to be clear about this. There are trans people, and there are cis people who don’t perform their gender traditionally.
  • Whilst it is obviously true that not everyone in a dress is transsexual, there's certainly a link in that there's a moral panic about trans people that unfortunately also impacts others.

    It unfortunately is not impossible to imagine someone dressing up in a certain way in order to make fun of them because they are an easy target for ridicule.

    It is a very hard life for many transsexual people. A life filled with hurt and rejection and ridicule.

    On a personal note, a member of my family lost a close friend recently who was trans. They were loved.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Yeah, a friend of mine killed themselves when abuse in the street left them too scared to fully transition - can’t believe it’s been seven years now.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    A boy in a dress is not a trans person, and I think it is probably important to be clear about this. There are trans people, and there are cis people who don’t perform their gender traditionally.

    When he was about eight, my son wanted to try out wearing skirts. I suggested he wear a skirt to his piano lessons, as I knew his piano teacher wouldn't care. He concluded fairly quickly that playing piano in a skirt was less comfortable than playing piano in trousers. My daughter has always preferred trousers, I don't think she ever wore a skirt to piano.

    ISTM that when my kids were little (they're now 32 and 29) that it wasn't too difficult to find fairly gender-neutral clothes, but that just after that two things happened - 1)supermarkets started selling cheap children's clothes, b) those cheap clothes were heavily gendered. I assumed that it was financial - if clothes are gendered then a family with a son and a daughter have to buy twice as much, and if they're cheap and disposable, the hand-me-down factor is eliminated.

    My son often wore plain self-coloured joggers or T-shirts which were hand-me-downs from his older female cousin. My daughter wore her brother's hand-me-downs. ISTM that we hit a sweet spot before the wave of pink, sparkly, unicorn clothes for small girls and trucks and dinosaur clothes for small boys. Things like wellie boots used to be gender-neutral in a cheerful red or yellow, and hand-me-downable and are now often bizarrely gendered.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Whilst it is obviously true that not everyone in a dress is transsexual, there's certainly a link in that there's a moral panic about trans people that unfortunately also impacts others.

    It unfortunately is not impossible to imagine someone dressing up in a certain way in order to make fun of them because they are an easy target for ridicule.

    It is a very hard life for many transsexual people. A life filled with hurt and rejection and ridicule.

    On a personal note, a member of my family lost a close friend recently who was trans. They were loved.
    Yeah, a friend of mine killed themselves when abuse in the street left them too scared to fully transition - can’t believe it’s been seven years now.

    Sending hugs and prayers and love. 😢🕯❤️
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