Using Musical Elements of Requiems in Regular Worship?

Heron

I've recently found myself listening to a number of requiems - chiefly Faure, Mozart and ....er...Rutter...

Our Place does not have any requiems (part or whole) in the usual repertoire. It seems to me that around All Souls they might be suitably offered in worship.

Are there churches that do this?

Thanks

Heron

(The Sanctus in Rutter's Requiem suggests 'Star Trek' to me....I have wondered if his father - to whom the requiem is dedicated - was a fan)

Truron

Many cathedrals and churches with good choirs do so here in England around All Soulstide and on Remembrance Sunday when some have requiems for the war dead. I imagine it is very likely in most places with a decent choral tradition.

Marsupial

I’ve come across several churches that have requiem services with music… I remember St Paul’s K Street in Washington did annual requiem for the victims of AIDS back in the 90s when I attended that parish - they used the Faure the two years I was living in Washington. I’ve sung the Victoria (generally only parts of it) for All Souls and our place is doing Lassus this year.

Nick Tamen

Heron wrote: »

I've recently found myself listening to a number of requiems - chiefly Faure, Mozart and ....er...Rutter...

Our Place does not have any requiems (part or whole) in the usual repertoire. It seems to me that around All Souls they might be suitably offered in worship.

Are there churches that do this?

I’ve known numerous (American) Presbyterian churches that do—though for not for All Souls, as that isn’t a day we observe. But perhaps for All Saints.

More often than not, it’s a movement or two rather than whole thing. Many requiems were composed more as or are more suited as concert pieces rather than as true liturgical works; doing the whole thing can overwhelm the actual service, depending on which requiem it is.

ThunderBunk

The Offerrtorium from the Faure is one of the most beautiful things in existence. Not sure where it fits into a standard celebration of the Eucharist.

Nick Tamen

ThunderBunk wrote: »

The Offerrtorium from the Faure is one of the most beautiful things in existence. Not sure where it fits into a standard celebration of the Eucharist.

Either at the offertory/preparation of the gifts, or during Communion perhaps?

Heron

Thanks. Yes, 'bits' perhaps fit best into regular worship in a church with a strong choral tradition.

I take @Nick Tamen point that requiems are not 'true liturgical works'.

I think that the texts and the music offer something not found elsewhere - but I also feel that way about the 'lost' Mattins canticles.

Perhaps putting our toe in the water with one movement during communion.

Cheers

Heron

Alan29

It's common in RC places with decent choirs. But there are some parts of the Mass where the rubrics expect the congregation to sing, (Sanctus and Agnus Dei) so some places leave them out. When I sang in the Liverpool Met Choir we sang Faure and Durufle on alternate years. Both are lovely in different ways.

Heron

Thanks @Alan29, thinking about it I can imagine our local RC shack doing full requiems.

Alan29

Heron wrote: »

Thanks @Alan29, thinking about it I can imagine our local RC shack doing full requiems.

My wife was in London and popped into Westminster Abbey for the Eucharist. It was All Souls and they did the Faure.

Heron

Our Place spends more time on All Saints than All Souls, and istm that elements of the requiem are perhaps more suitable for the latter.

Spike

Nick Tamen wrote: »

More often than not, it’s a movement or two rather than whole thing. Many requiems were composed more as or are more suited as concert pieces rather than as true liturgical works; doing the whole thing can overwhelm the actual service, depending on which requiem it is.

Yes and no. Something like the Mozart Requiem is more of a concert piece that wouldn’t really work liturgically, but I have heard, and sung, Faure and Durufle (for instance) as the main settings for a Requiem Mass, usually for All Souls or at a funeral.

TheOrganist

My friend's church near Chichester has an annual Requiem Mass using the entirety of the setting by Faure (with organ, not orchestra) to mark All Souls - this in a very small village. It may not be the most polished performance but it is a very moving act of worship.

Nick Tamen

Spike wrote: »

Nick Tamen wrote: »

More often than not, it’s a movement or two rather than whole thing. Many requiems were composed more as or are more suited as concert pieces rather than as true liturgical works; doing the whole thing can overwhelm the actual service, depending on which requiem it is.

Yes and no. Something like the Mozart Requiem is more of a concert piece that wouldn’t really work liturgically, but I have heard, and sung, Faure and Durufle (for instance) as the main settings for a Requiem Mass, usually for All Souls or at a funeral.

Sure, which is why I said many rather than most or all. I could see using the Faure or the Duruflé or the Rutter liturgically. (Though as @Alan29 notes, in a Catholic context, that could run afoul of rubrics that direct that all should sing the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei.)

But I’d class the Mozart, the Berlioz and the Verdi, for example, as concert pieces, and I’d lean toward that with the Lloyd Webber as well. And, while not a traditional requiem, I’d include the Brahms Deutsche Requiem in the concert category as well. (I have heard Wie lieblich sind deine Wohnungen/“How Lovely Are Thy Dwellings” at funerals.)

Forthview

Mozart's Requiem Mass has been sung liturgically at least twice this year in Salzburg cathedral (youtube Pontifikalrequiem fuer Papst Franziskus). The Dies Irae and the Offertorium are no longer parts of the standard Roman Requiem Mass but other parts were sung and most impressive (to me at least) was the entrance Antiphon and Kyrie
This Mass was arranged quickly just a few days after the death of Pope Francis and was celebrated in a cathedral which was filled to capacity

A few months before the cathedral had seen the funeral of a former Auxiliary Bishop Dr Andreas Laun. He had requested for his funeral the complete Mozart Requiem and so all of it was sung including the Dies Irae and the Offertorium. Salzburg cathedral lends itself to such events with the Cardinal Archbishop of Budapest as the preacher and a dozen other bishops present. The former Domkapellmeister came back to oversee the music and the present Domkapellmeisterin was there as Kantorin.
Although the Mass was celebrated in pre Vatican 2 black vestments it was a normal standard Roman Requiem Mass.( It can be seen on youtube Pontifikalrequiem fuer Weihbischof em. Dr Andreas Laun) but it lasts over two hours.

Pomona

As an aside, I thought that Hallowtide included All Souls?

I have known churches which hold non-liturgical performances of requiems (especially Mozart's) on Holy Saturday as a kind of adjunct to the Easter Triduum.

Oblatus

I have a bit of a personal problem with trying to do a full classical Requiem during a BCP Burial Office. The two don't fit together well, IMHO. There ends up being a whole lot of time waiting for music to complete and people wondering why it's going on so long. There are settings that work better, though, typically with a not-too-long Benedictus qui venit, for instance. And maybe not using all of the interstitial chants between lessons and definitely not the Dies irae if it's in the setting. There's a YouTube from COVID days of the Trinity College Cambridge Choir superbly singing the Duruflé Requiem in the context of a 1662 Burial Office for those who had died of the disease, and while the music itself was transporting, it did put that liturgy all out of proportion (I'm sure it was valid and efficacious, just really distorted). Some musical items in a Requiem are meant to cover a lot of liturgical action that just isn't done that way anymore. Like going ahead with the Eucharistic Prayer during the Benedictus.