Arrests of street preachers in the UK
Gamma Gamaliel
Shipmate
in Purgatory
I've heard a number of young people involved with church claim that street preachers - and not just nutty and ranty ones - are being arrested here in the UK.
They 'follow' some of these folk online.
Is there any truth in this? Are these Tommy Robinson (sic) style right-wing activists using street preaching to promote division?
Or are they simply going about 'preaching the gospel' as street preachers have for some considerable time?
Can anyone shed any light on these alleged arrests and incidents?
They 'follow' some of these folk online.
Is there any truth in this? Are these Tommy Robinson (sic) style right-wing activists using street preaching to promote division?
Or are they simply going about 'preaching the gospel' as street preachers have for some considerable time?
Can anyone shed any light on these alleged arrests and incidents?
Comments
Why haven't you asked them to show you some of these incidences, seeing as the implication is that they are getting this information online.
I don't know whether or not these events are linked to far-right extremism. It's not the sort of subject I personally care to pursue, having due regard to my hypertension...
There's also a rise in certain far-right and alt-right groups (including the rump of UK and Turning Point UK making use of Christian language and imagery).
Sorry, but how does Tommy Robinson's tour of middle-east Christian sites connect with @KarlLB's skeptical take on the claims of preachers being arrested?
Which news channels specifically? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm merely curious.
Do you know the names of any of these people that they follow? What crimes are they being charged with?
It appears that there have been about 14 arrests of street preachers over the last 5 years and in most instances charges have been dropped and in one or two cases compensation has been made for wrongful arrest.
There may be more instances than those 14 cases. A popular street preacher than some of these young people follow online was recently arrested and appears to be making a big deal about it. I can't remember the guy's name but can find out.
My suspicion is that Yaxley-Lennon and the far right are stoking much of this stuff up. I have had long and highly frustrating conversations with some converts and enquirers in my own Church circles who are coming in as a result of encountering right-wing stuff online. They are picking up the impression that more traditional or conservative forms of Christianity are the antidote to 'woke' and the perceived Islamification of our once great Christian nation - yadda yadda yadda.
I've heard two young people cite these arrests within the last week, seeing it as evidence of godless liberalism playing into the hands of Islamists and atheists etc.
To be fair, I have known young converts who've quickly dropped this sort of rhetoric once they've realised that church is about Christ and not some kind of 'anti-woke' crusade. I even know some who have done a 360-degree turn and are campaigning against misogyny and loopy-doopy Christian nationalism.
But even so, I remain concerned.
Also, there does appear to be a 'nuisance' issue in some town and city centres with preachers and entire worship bands setting up and getting in everyone's way - often with competing groups in close proximity. I know several town mayor's and town centre managers concerned about this.
If these groups are constrained or moved on they immediately bleat about persecution or their civil rights.
It's an issue.
Most arrests have been for alleged 'hate-speech' and it must be a tough judgement call for police to assess when a street preacher crosses the line and potentially causes a disturbance of the peace by haranguing passers-byby. I'v known of instancces where aggressive preachers denounce passers-by for their beliefs, life-style, sexual orientation and so on.
There are various public order offences you might commit such as blocking the public highway ( even in pedestrianised areas), harassment, affray, breach of the peace, hawking without a licence etc.. Police would probably explain why you're potentially breaking the law, and give advice on how you could continue to lawfully express yourself.
If anyone is arrested it's certainly not for preaching, and almost certainly because they want to be arrested to fulfil some sort of martyrdom complex
The nice people at Christian Concern provide details of a number of incidents involving street preaching, some involving arrests (and even a trial).
Christian Concern are According to their statement of faith, "Christian Concern has also adopted the Nashville Statement, which expresses a Biblical view of sexuality and gender." This statement links the issue with sin.
Obstruction and nuisance aside, I think the question of sin is one way of looking at the wider issue. To what extent are street preachers still free to proclaim a "Biblical" "Christian" message about sin? About the consequences of sin? About what they see as specific expressions of sin? At what point does this become incitement to hatred?
As your post suggests, the cases covered by Christian Concern mostly result in what are seen as "wins" for the street preachers.
Quite apart from anything else, I'm not convinced that street preaching and open-air 'witness' are particularly effective methods of evangelism.
Back in the day, though, I can remember seeing some street and beach preachers (remember 'beach missions'?) who had an engaging style and presentation that was by no means ranty and provocative.
I'm not saying that Christians should be all nicey-nicey and I think there's scope for street preaching for street protest and demos etc providing they keep within the bounds of the law and aren't too jerkish.
The definition of what constitutes jerkism is going to vary of course.
I do think that these preachers are out to court 'martyrdom' as they see it and can think of plenty of other things they could be doing in their communities to bring the love of Christ to people rather than hectoring shoppers and making a noise with over-amplified gunk music.
Are these converts switching from other sorts of Christianity?
@Gamma Gamaliel it strikes me that Orthodox clergy and Muslim clergy look awfully similar to each other in comparison to how most secular men look in the UK - I'm sure you've pointed out to these kids in question that Greek or Romanian culture is just as "foreign" to the UK as eg South Asian or Saudi culture is, but it does strike me as being especially odd that Orthodox kids are decrying "the Islamisation of society" - I wonder if it's at least in part a reaction to being mistaken for Muslims by others.
The short answer is, it varies. I'm hearing reports of lots of young men rocking up at large evangelical churches such as St Aldgates in Oxford and various HTB outlets.
Equally, we're seeing young men turning up at Orthodox parishes as potential converts or enquiries. Not all of them are right-wing reactionaries but many appear to have come across Orthodoxy online, either through the 'Interdox' types - various popular or maverick figures - or through 'influencers'.
There are folk out there promoting Orthodoxy and other traditional or more conservative forms of Christianity as something particularly 'masculine'. There's a big 'Ortho-bro' thing in the States and its ripples have touched our shores.
We have had some very right-wing conspiracy-theory type folk come along to our parish but they've stopped coming. That said, most of the young uns I talk to are far more to the right than I am and appear to be reacting against liberalism in its various forms.
My general observations are as follows:
- Some are from completely unchurched backgrounds. The minority.
- Others come from nominally RC backgrounds and want something more 'definite.'
- A number have been through all sorts of esoteric and sometimes cultic groups, but again this is only a small segment.
- Others have done the rounds of evangelical and charismatic churches and either felt patronised by them or that the worship style wasn't to their taste.
@Pomona - I'm surprised you're surprised. There are tensions between Eastern European migrant communities and British Asian communities in many cities.
Don't forget the Serbian/Kosovo thing and also the view of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans as an oppressive and 'anti-Christian' regime.
As for indigenous British kids who are investigating Orthodoxy, I don't think the visual similarity between the dress of imams and Orthodox clergy comes into it.
If they are influenced by Yaxley-Lennon and anti-Islamic rhetoric online then that's where they'll get their views from. In which case they might consider Christian migrants to be OK, but not Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs or other non-Christian religions.
Not all of them are like that of course.
Don't misunderstand me. We are not seeing hundreds of young people flocking through our doors but we are getting them. So are the RCs but most are turning up in evangelical settings I'd suggest.
I'm assuming you mean St Aldate's here, seeing as we have one of those (nice bells), and no St Aldgate's .
I must have been thinking of 'Aldersgate' in London.
For a lot of young men historically, church was a way to meet girls so I'm curious as to why the lack of young women joining them is seemingly not a problem for them. Where do they think they're going to meet the tradwife that influencers have told them to expect?
There seems to be a universal tendency for conservative groups especially to prefer to get the highest ring they can on the hierarchy rather than try to overthrow the hierarchy altogether.
Our parish priest knows the local imam but that's as far as it goes. Perhaps in future there might be more connections.
As for tensions between different migrant groups, of various faith backgrounds, there's nothing new in that. There are often tensions between different waves of migrants. There have been tensions between Indian and Pakistani communities at various times and also tensions between Eastern Europeans and Asian communities which were already here and established before the influx of migrants from Eastern Europe.
These things have been going on for a long time and are more complicated than 'these people are Christians, those people are Muslims' or whatever else.
I'm afraid I find many Eastern Europeans quite racist in their attitudes and yes, white working-class British people very often too. Although neither of these groups are entirely monolithic of course and there are folk out there trying to exploit and stir up community tensions for their own nefarious ends.
As for the young lads, well at one time there were lots of single young women in evangelical and evangelical charismatic churches. That was certainly the case in the 1980s and '90s.
These days, for whatever reason, I'd say that situation is reversed.
In the Orthodox parishes and evangelical churches I know where there has been an influx of young male enquirers and converts, they outnumber single young women by a wide margin.
Most single women I'm aware of in the Orthodox parishes I know are a decade or so older and generally divorcees, so not necessarily the kind of wives these lads would be looking for, if indeed they are.
It's unrealistic to expect any coherent or thought-through position from the online influencers. There's a nastily misogynistic note about some of them and the brighter and more savvy young lads can 'see through' that.
I know a few who've told me that they came in riding that particular wave only to jump off it when they realised it would crash them onto the beach.
I suspect the initial influx of Internet influenced enquirers is over now anyway. We are also getting young families with small children along, mostly from nominal adherence to mainstream Protestant denominations.
That's an interesting development too and I'm not sure what's triggered that.
Ish I think, it's expressed differently, and tends to be a lot more anti-Black in practice, which I assume is partially a legacy of cold war coverage. It can - alternatively - be somewhat more harmonious.
But yeah, first generation South Asians voting for Brexit because they didn't like Eastern Europeans moving to the UK and 'taking jobs' was a phenomena, which is why some of the Leave outlets were pushing messaging around leaving the EU being the ticket to more immigration from the Commonwealth:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/22/migrant-parents-vote-brexit-british-vote-leave
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/inside-the-british-asian-brexit-vote-and-why-it-contains-a-few-surprises/
As an aside, the Greek Orthodox Church can be very supportive of Palestinians, verbally at least. That doesn't extend to allowing them to have Palestinian pastors. I may be wrong but I'm told that within the Greek jurisdictions in the Middle-East they still insist on having Greek priests rather than Arab ones.
Messy things all ways round. There weren't any senior Slavic clergy for 500 years after Cyrill and Methodius.
At least that Greek Bishop joined Dr Martin Luther King on that civil rights march - just as some Orthodox clergy sheltered Jewish people from the pogroms as others were leading and inciting the mobs.
We have to acknowledge these things. Is there racism in Orthodox communities? Yes.
The RCs have also been welcoming people from Poland, the Philippines, Portugal and various parts of Africa for some time now. If there are tensions I've not heard of any.
Oh come on, if you know it’s a “gross generalisation” then don’t bloody post it ! Repeating racist crap because some random said it, is neither necessary nor helpful.
It's not racist to point out the existence of racism, which is what Black people in particular unfortunately DO face in Greece and across the Balkans. This is a widely-shared experience amongst Black people who go on holiday in the area. Greek people aren't a racialised group in any case.
It is generally accepted that there are significant problems with racism in Greece. I'm not being racist against the Greeks in saying so. Would I be racist if I said there were issues around racism here in the UK?
No, I wouldn't.
I can't comment on how black people fare on holiday in Greece but there have certainly been violent attacks on migrants, as well, of course, instances of people helping and supporting asylum seekers.
Are churches in Greek jurisdictions being racist when not allowing Palestinians to become clergy and restricting offices in the church to those of Greek origin only? I'd say so.
I imagine my Orthodox parish may be a lot more ethnically diverse than your Quaker Meeting House. Please do me the courtesy of reading what I actually write than what you think I've written.
Or is that something for The Styx?
Also, I doubt this absolute statement - see here, for a different perspective.
But "Greeks can be quite racist towards black people" isn't saying "Greeks are racist" as a blanket statement. Pointing out that anti-Blackness is more common in the Balkans than in other places isn't racist, neither is it racist when Black people highlight that a holiday destination might not be safe for them when it is safe for their white friends.
I also think it's a bit odd for a non-Orthodox person to lecture an Orthodox person who is talking about problems within their own community.
I found the linked blog article astonishingly tone-deaf and not even trying to understand why Blackface is different to stereotypes about Greek people. Greek people have certainly suffered throughout history, eg at the hands of the Ottomans, but they're also white people who have benefited as a society from white supremacy - particularly when it comes to portraying Greek civilisation as the birth of "white culture". That doesn't mean that stereotypes can't be hurtful, but it's not the same as racism in the same way that calling a white person a gammon isn't racist.
@Pomona is on the money. I'm highlighting instances of racism within my own faith community not accusing an entire nationality of racism.
I would be happy to rephrase my original comment if that helps to clear the air.
Things have changed a lot in the last 20-30 years.
Patriarchate of Antioch: as far as I am aware all bishops are Arab speakers (Syrian or Lebanese).
Patriarchate of Alexandria (covering the whole of Africa): the church has grown considerably outside its historic area of Egypt and Libya. Many new dioceses have been created, some with Greek bishops and some with indigenous bishops and all with mostly indigenous clergy.
Patriarchate of Jerusalem (covering the whole of what used to be called Palestine plus the Kingdom of Jordan): there have been Arab clergy in parishes for a long time, but until comparatively recently they were prevented from becoming bishops. That has changed. Initially there were a few assistant bishops who were Arabs, but served under a Greek diocesan bishop. Now there are also a few Arab diocesan bishops (currently seems to be three Arabs out of twenty diocesan bishops).
I am pleased to hear this is no longer the case.
I am also willing to put more caveats in my comments about racism in various Orthodox communities. Perhaps I would muddy the waters further if I related that an Orthodox friend claims to have been disturbed by what he took to racist comments in a sermon by a Romanian priest?
The point I'm making is that there can be racism, xenophobia and phyletism across the Orthodox spectrum and we ought to be aware of that and try to deal with it.
That's the only point I'm making really and perhaps I should have made it more clearly in the first place.
My observation is that the primary driver for street preachers/evangelists is the Great Commission - specifically the command to "go into all the world and proclaim the Good News". Differences start to emerge in how those doing the preaching assess what they are doing - is it sufficient that they are doing it at all, being faithful? Is there a concern to be effective, to work towards increasing positive and/or engaged responses?
My guess would be that some were out to be provocative and almost 'court' arrest whereas others were acting in good faith and being obedient to The Great Commission as it were but ended up getting arrested through a number of circumstances and factors, some of them unforeseen or beyond their control.
My guess is that anyone backed by "Christian" "Concern" is far more likely to be in the former group than the latter.
Think of every stupid legal case there has been in the last couple of decades making out Christians are being persecuted because they can't use their job to prosyletise or whatever; behind pretty much every case you'll find this crowd and the Christian Legal Centre.
They are very closely aligned with FIEC and con-evo Anglican churches (and the occasional oddball conservative Anglo-Catholic).
I think they are a niche sport even in conservative circles.