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Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • I always use a knife and fork to eat. I certainly wouldn't eat pizza in any other way. It has always seemed uncouth and bad manners not to eat properly with a knife and fork unless the person is a very young child.
  • So you eat Chinese food with a knife and fork, because eating with chopsticks would be uncouth and bad manners?
  • I remember many years ago my parents invited some American grad students for an impromptu supper. There was cake. We passed slices around on plates and then realised that our guests were not eating and were giving us strange looks. Much later, when they had become good friends of the family, they admitted they had been expecting forks, and thought us uncouth,

    And talking of forks, @Gramps49 called the pointy bits “tangs”. We would say “tines”.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Cathscats--

    So cakes are eaten by hand there? Even heavily frosted/decorated ones, or anything with chocolate frosting?

    Normally, IME in the US, cake is eaten with a fork. Sometimes, it can be informally eaten by hand; but mostly if you're home alone, or improvising because you don't have forks. (Like buying a slice of cake at a deli, and they're out of forks. Or someone brings cake to school or work for an informal party, and there aren't enough forks.)

    Thx.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Kittyville wrote: »
    So you eat Chinese food with a knife and fork, because eating with chopsticks would be uncouth and bad manners?
    Personally, I think chopsticks are a brilliant invention. I'm not sure which culture first made them; but I've figured it was China. Anyway, AIUI, there's often been a great deal of poverty there. But, if you can get two sticks of a food-safe wood, you have instant utensils--and you can carry them around with you!
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    I would say it rather depends on the consistency and size of the piece of cake. If the cake is firm like a fruit cake, or at least not too soft, or too covered in buttercream or soft icing then it will quite often be eaten by hand.

    If it is too soft, moist, or messy to eat because of cream, jam, icing etc., or if the slices are too large to be decently held in the hand then forks are called for.
  • We inherited a set of cake forks - a sort of miniature combined fork and knife. I've not seen another set for years, though they were quite often seen in my younger days. We do use them occasionally for eating particularly crumbly or creamy cakes.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL, jedijudy!

    I visited Europe briefly when I was a kid. Strange and fascinating manners: the knife/fork thing, as mentioned; eating *everything* with knife and fork (pizza, apples, even peeling a banana with knife and fork); etc.

    I have never seen anyone eat a banana with a knife and fork. Some people might use a knife to peel and cut an apple or peel an orange, but by hand would be normal.

    Pizza it depends. If it's from a takeaway in a cardboard box, then by hand. If in an Italian restaurant, utensils. If in a pizzeria, depends on what everyone else is doing, which will depend how much it resembles a takeaway versus a restaurants.
  • My grandmother taught me how to eat all sorts of fruits with a knife and fork - she was that sort of person. Quite fascinating in an engineering sort of way. I sometimes use a small fruit knife to eat apples and pears.

    American friends are usually intrigued by the knife and fork thing generally finding that eating from the back of the fork really fancy.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    In the Netherlands, I believe, it’s normal good manners to eat sandwiches with knife and fork.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I defy anyone to eat mussels with a knife and fork. (Anytime we have moules frites it's all finger food, with just a spoon to finish up the broth.)
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    I perhaps should have said I'm both left-handed and Australian. Meaning that there at least 2 reasons why this conversation is an utterly confusing combination of things I've never heard of and things I vaguely recognise but have trouble mentally translating when people talk about doing things with their left or right hand.

    Though I happen to know of one Australian culinary habit that's likely to bamboozle you all: serving alternating plates at a sit-down meal such as a wedding reception or conference dinner. Two dishes, every second person gets served the same dish.
  • Whaaaaat?! Are you allowed to negotiate swaps with your neighbours if you have food envy?
  • Cathscats wrote: »
    And talking of forks, @Gramps49 called the pointy bits “tangs”. We would say “tines”.
    They’re called “tines” here, at least in my experience. I’ve never heard “tangs.”

    As for cake, my experience is more like that of @BroJames. There are some kinds of cake and some occasions where eating with the hands can be appropriate. But layer cake always needs a fork.

    And here, cakes have icing, not frosting. :wink:

  • I never say frosting either. My family never used or owned cake forks for any kind of cake. Uncouth, just as our American friends thought!
  • john holdingjohn holding Host Emeritus
    A much regretted former host on the old ship used to speak from time to time of his set of ice cream forks, de riguer in the old south of the US as I understand, among persons of a certain social class. Rumour has it that he had donated them to the Hosts' Lounge, but, alas, I've never been able to find them.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited January 2020
    I’ll admit—we have ice cream forks, inherited as part of Ms. Tamen’s grandmother’s silver. I’m trying to think whether we’ve ever used them. If we did, it would have a been with tongue slightly in cheek.

    On the other hand, we use that truly important Southern serving dish—a deviled egg plate—with regularity.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    <snip>I’m trying to think whether we’ve ever used them. If we did, it would have a been with tongue slightly in cheek.<snip>
    Presumably to avoid stabbing it with the fork.
  • A much regretted former host on the old ship used to speak from time to time of his set of ice cream forks, de riguer in the old south of the US as I understand, among persons of a certain social class. Rumour has it that he had donated them to the Hosts' Lounge, but, alas, I've never been able to find them.

    I do miss him.
    :cry:
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    A much regretted former host on the old ship used to speak from time to time of his set of ice cream forks, de riguer in the old south of the US as I understand, among persons of a certain social class. Rumour has it that he had donated them to the Hosts' Lounge, but, alas, I've never been able to find them.

    I do miss him.
    :cry:

    A fine lad. Member of the Nashville Mafia, a trio of fine shipmates from that fair city.

    I figure that eating from the convex side of the fork is why Brits make their peas mushy. How else could you convey them to your mouth with an upside-down fork?

    Single-layer cakes can be eaten by hand, just barely. Multi-layer cakes, never, at least while Mom is looking.

    Pizza only if it's too gooey to pick up. Chicago-style stuffed pizza is impossible to eat by hand, at least at first. Once you get down closer to the outer edge you cross a point at which it is feasible to pick it up.

    Here cakes have frosting. That may be regional.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    A much regretted former host on the old ship used to speak from time to time of his set of ice cream forks, de riguer in the old south of the US as I understand, among persons of a certain social class. Rumour has it that he had donated them to the Hosts' Lounge, but, alas, I've never been able to find them.

    I do miss him.
    :cry:

    A fine lad. Member of the Nashville Mafia, a trio of fine shipmates from that fair city.

    I seem to remember there being a quartet...

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I had pizza this evening. I ate it with a knife and fork.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Though I happen to know of one Australian culinary habit that's likely to bamboozle you all: serving alternating plates at a sit-down meal such as a wedding reception or conference dinner. Two dishes, every second person gets served the same dish.

    Consider me bamboozled. Would you expect to seat men and women alternating round the table at such a meal, and serve different meals to men and women? 'cause I could, I suppose, see that arising form a desire to serve women delicate little meals, and men large manly hunks of meat or something.

    How did this custom originate?
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    Aside from the aforementioned Chicago-style stuffed pizza (food of the gods!), I fail to see why one would attempt to consume pizza with a knife and fork. For thin-crust pizzas, it would be very difficult. I can see it for regular think-crust, but New York-style would be hard, and for St. Louis-style - which closely resembles a saltine with ketchup and hot glue atop it - there would be even less point than there usually is.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2020
    CJCfarwest wrote: »
    Whaaaaat?! Are you allowed to negotiate swaps with your neighbours if you have food envy?

    Negotiating swaps is standard behaviour, yes. If you're part of a couple, best to do with that with your other half though it's also okay with others.
    Consider me bamboozled. Would you expect to seat men and women alternating round the table at such a meal, and serve different meals to men and women? 'cause I could, I suppose, see that arising form a desire to serve women delicate little meals, and men large manly hunks of meat or something.

    How did this custom originate?

    It's not a male/female thing, no. Usually more a beef/chicken thing... but I'm not conscious of any gender association.

    I've honestly no idea how it originated. Maybe so that you don't force everyone to have exactly the same menu?

    I had no idea it was Australia-specific until my boss was responsible for organising a conference in Edinburgh (because he was, at the time, head of an international organisation), and arranged it and then found out from the caterers it was basically unheard of.

    So he explained to the delegates how the conference dinner was going to work on the afternoon before. It was hilarious. You had every other nationality grabbing the nearest Australian and saying "Seriously, is this real? He's not joking? Does this mean if I don't like my meal I might have to talk to the person next to me about a swap?!!".

    Whereas every Australian was grabbing the nearest New Zealander and saying "Seriously, even you haven't heard of this?"

    In Australia, I would be surprised if I went to either a wedding reception or a conference dinner and this DIDN'T happen.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    We inherited a set of cake forks - a sort of miniature combined fork and knife. I've not seen another set for years, though they were quite often seen in my younger days. We do use them occasionally for eating particularly crumbly or creamy cakes.

    Used be pretty common as wedding presents here.
  • That alternating thing is bizarre. I can just imagine the fun with allergies and/or religious prohibitions!
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2020
    That alternating thing is bizarre. I can just imagine the fun with allergies and/or religious prohibitions!

    Well these days people with particular requirements will usually say so beforehand (eg vegetarian), or just tell the person next to them they need to swap. No big deal.

    You can just about bet your house one of the main courses will be chicken. I actually remember in Edinburgh, we were giving chicken and beef as examples, and lo and behold.

    Surely a set menu with no variation is worse for these issues? Or do you just do buffets all the time for such events?
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Hmm...for US conferences, post-wedding dinners, etc., people choose ahead of time from a short list of entrees--e.g., maybe chicken, vegan/vegetarian, and beef.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    I had pizza this evening. I ate it with a knife and fork.
    Why? :wink:

    Seriously though, eating pizza with a knife and fork—except for the aforementioned Chicago deep dish (yes @Rossweisse, food of the gods indeed)—would lead to very puzzled and amused looks around here.

  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Dare I say it, this doesn't surprise me. The US is very choice-focused.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    That alternating thing is bizarre. I can just imagine the fun with allergies and/or religious prohibitions!

    Well these days people with particular requirements will usually say so beforehand (eg vegetarian), or just tell the person next to them they need to swap. No big deal.

    You can just about bet your house one of the main courses will be chicken. I actually remember in Edinburgh, we were giving chicken and beef as examples, and lo and behold.

    Surely a set menu with no variation is worse for these issues? Or do you just do buffets all the time for such events?

    I thought you were saying that people didn't have the opportunity to say anything ahead of time – which would be rather problematic. But of course if you can say ahead of time, "I'm allergic to chicken," or something similar, then there's no problem.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    That alternating thing is bizarre. I can just imagine the fun with allergies and/or religious prohibitions!

    Well these days people with particular requirements will usually say so beforehand (eg vegetarian), or just tell the person next to them they need to swap. No big deal.

    You can just about bet your house one of the main courses will be chicken. I actually remember in Edinburgh, we were giving chicken and beef as examples, and lo and behold.

    Surely a set menu with no variation is worse for these issues? Or do you just do buffets all the time for such events?

    I thought you were saying that people didn't have the opportunity to say anything ahead of time – which would be rather problematic. But of course if you can say ahead of time, "I'm allergic to chicken," or something similar, then there's no problem.

    People can definitely request a vegetarian meal. I mean, any conference will ask about dietary requirements.

    But if someone couldn't eat chicken, or even really doesn't like chicken, then the usual behaviour would simply be to say to the person next to them "if I get the chicken can we swap".

    Non-Australians at the Edinburgh conference did seem slightly terrified at the social risks of such conversations. For me as a general omnivore I'm thoroughly used to such requests.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    orfeo wrote: »
    ... In Australia, I would be surprised if I went to either a wedding reception or a conference dinner and this DIDN'T happen.
    Yet another reason to be grateful that I didn't act on my early-20s urge to go to Australia... This is a "Not only no, but HELL no" issue, as far as I'm concerned.

  • I'm not sure why, but I think most Americans would find themselves mildly unnerved at the idea of having to turn to the person next to them, who might be a complete stranger, and say, "would you like to swap dinners?" There's something about the idea of being in my best clothes and on my best behavior and then suggesting we do the equivalent of swapping sandwiches in the primary school cafeteria – well, I guess I'm more of a prude (? that's not the right word, sorry) then I thought I was!

    Now I could totally see this at a picnic or take-out place.
  • I'm not sure why, but I think most Americans would find themselves mildly unnerved at the idea of having to turn to the person next to them, who might be a complete stranger, and say, "would you like to swap dinners?" There's something about the idea of being in my best clothes and on my best behavior and then suggesting we do the equivalent of swapping sandwiches in the primary school cafeteria – well, I guess I'm more of a prude (? that's not the right word, sorry) then I thought I was!

    Now I could totally see this at a picnic or take-out place.

    If you're a prude then so am I. It's the sort of thing that happens so very infrequently—that one is at a fixed-plate convention-style meal—that one's instincts about what is or isn't unseemly have to come from somewhere else, since one hasn't generally had a lot of practice at being in such straits. Something in our upbringing as Americans outside of that context predisposes us to find the idea of swapping plates with a total stranger as abhorrent. I can't imagine what about an Australian's upbringing would make them tend the other way.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    And what if you truly can't eat what's before you, but you *could* eat what either table neighbor is eating, and they don't want to switch?

    As to how the Australian swapping protocol started:

    I wonder if someone (a mom, grandma, ranch cook, school cook) got tired of personalized requests (and maybe didn't have the resources to provide them), and said "All right, listen up, you {insert mild insult here}: There are going to be TWO--yes, just TWO--options. If you don't like what you get, swap with your neighbor. If that doesn't work for you, well, suck it up, Buttercup! I'm not your personal servant. You'll get what I serve, and you'll eat it--or just not eat. Sort it out among yourselves!"{Storms back into kitchen.}
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    mousethief wrote: »
    I can't imagine what about an Australian's upbringing would make them tend the other way.

    We're a lot less formal than you. I didn't understand this until the first time I went to the USA, but there's a lot less formal politeness here. We aren't exactly devoid of class structure the way we'd like to believe, but fundamentally talking to strangers doesn't require much in the way of introductions.
    Golden Key wrote: »
    And what if you truly can't eat what's before you, but you *could* eat what either table neighbor is eating, and they don't want to switch?

    Does not arise. In Australian etiquette refusing to switch would most definitely lose you marks unless you also couldn't eat the other meal.

    We're usually talking a circular table of 8 or 10 people. The idea that no-one at all could trade meals with a person in need... does not compute.

  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2020
    ECraigR wrote: »
    I like this system and will implement it at my next function. I think it’s a good way to get people talking to each other. Perhaps it’s just me, but I think us millennials may not be bothered by the idea as much. But also could just be me and my lack of knowledge of social etiquette (asperger’s), which the ex-wife pointed out often.

    Given how almost all non-Australians freak out at the alternating meals idea, I wish you luck...

    I don't know if I mentioned this is usually in the context of a 3-course meal. So any food envy tends to even out in most cases. lol
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited January 2020
    ECraigR wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I had pizza this evening. I ate it with a knife and fork.

    Barbarian, stabbing a helpless flat pizza with a fork and dissecting it with a knife.

    :wink:

    In America, I’ve been to very swanky (high end) Italian restaurants that serve pizza and it’s always eaten with hands. Chicago style, knife and fork sometimes, but those of us who are brave still attempt to manhandle the delicious goodness to our mouths.

    Seems like I remember a picture of the 45 eating a New York style Pizza (flat and very greasy) with a fork. I remember Stever Colbert making fun of it. In New York, youz take th' pizza, den youz fold it and eatz it dat way.
  • I didn’t realise it was peculiarly Australian, either, but as there aren’t many things I absolutely refuse to eat, it’s never really been an issue. And as Orfeo says, it’s very unlikely that absolutely no one would be willing to help someone else out by swapping.
  • I've always hated the alternating meals at dinners. I always seem to end up with something I either loathe or am allergic to. Some people are happy to swap, but others cling to their plates. Once I had to tell the waitress that I would be unable to eat what she had served due to seafood allergy and she was most unhappy with me as she had to go back to the kitchen and ask for a replacement.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Surely a set menu with no variation is worse for these issues? Or do you just do buffets all the time for such events?

    If one has particular dietary necessities, one notifies the host in advance. My experience of conference dinners is about an equal three-way split between buffet service, select your choice from 3-4 options when you book, and a single set meal (with an alternative provided for anyone who has asked for their dietary needs to be accommodated).

    I can't help but think that the Australian thing would invariably result in bad feeling - either because I'd get the meal that looked less good, and I'd be disappointed, of I'd get the one that looked best, and my neighbour would oblige me to swap because they didn't like to eat whatever they had been given, or I'd refuse to swap and have to endure the reproachful gaze of my neighbour.

    Then again, I must be weird with food. IMO, people who ask you "beef or chicken" are asking the wrong question. The thing that will make me chose between them is what the dish has been flavoured with, not what kind of meat is in it.

    (I usually eat pizza from a plate with a knife and fork. You can't just pick it up because you can't do that with a whole pizza. Pizza that has been pre-sliced for you is street food, designed to be eaten standing up with the hands.)
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »

    We're a lot less formal than you. I didn't understand this until the first time I went to the USA, but there's a lot less formal politeness here. We aren't exactly devoid of class structure the way we'd like to believe, but fundamentally talking to strangers doesn't require much in the way of introductions.

    And as it normally happens with the main course only, you should be on some sort of speaking terms with your table neighbours by then. If there's been no first course, and so no idle chat, not a bad way to start.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Leorning Cniht--

    Re not picking up a whole pizza:

    Is this a very small pizza for one person? Or one of the various larger sizes for multiple people (or one hungry/pizza-craving person)?

    We usually have our round pizzas cut in multiple pie-slice-shaped pieces. So they're cut in quarters, then in quarters again. (Depending on the size of the pizza and the number of eaters.)

    Then we eat a slice with our hands, get delightfully messy, then use up a bunch of paper napkins!
    :)
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Gee D wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »

    We're a lot less formal than you. I didn't understand this until the first time I went to the USA, but there's a lot less formal politeness here. We aren't exactly devoid of class structure the way we'd like to believe, but fundamentally talking to strangers doesn't require much in the way of introductions.

    And as it normally happens with the main course only, you should be on some sort of speaking terms with your table neighbours by then. If there's been no first course, and so no idle chat, not a bad way to start.

    Wait, what dinners are you going to? I'm used to it happening for all 3 courses.

    I think even in Sydney. So there.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Leorning Cniht--

    Re not picking up a whole pizza:

    Is this a very small pizza for one person? Or one of the various larger sizes for multiple people (or one hungry/pizza-craving person)?

    A plate-sized pizza for one person. I'd hardly call it "very small" - I'm invariably replete after eating one. I suppose it's about a foot in diameter or so, although I usually eat my dinner rather than measure it.
  • I was eating at a pizza restaurant in German quite a few years ago and was glad that I remembered enough German to read a note to parents on the menu to the effect that it was permissible for children to eat their pizza with their hands. I took the hint -- adults were to use forks.
  • I wouldn't expect the alternate thing to cause bad feeling--food is just food, after all, and not worth a fuss. But it seems odd to me in a formal settinfg to be doing swaps and deals, and physically exchanging plates. (Does it ever happen that someone wants half, and then you get the joy of cutting bits off and scraping them off the plate????
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