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Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Um, that last bit would strictly be couples. Who do that in restaurants anyway.

  • I can't help but think that the Australian thing would invariably result in bad feeling - either because I'd get the meal that looked less good, and I'd be disappointed, of I'd get the one that looked best, and my neighbour would oblige me to swap because they didn't like to eat whatever they had been given, or I'd refuse to swap and have to endure the reproachful gaze of my neighbour.

    That would be my take on it, too! If you enjoy your food and you like what's been put in front of you, you wouldn't feel happy about feeling compelled to swap with a neighbour who claims they can't eat their given dinner. And similarly if you didn't like what was given to you, how would you have the gall to ask someone to give up what they might have preferred to legitimately keep for their own enjoyment, just to make you feel better?

    Irish weddings do this thing of having three standard options on the menu and people simply choose from that. It's reasonably unwasteful because they'll be fairly popular choices and ready for dishing up, and more to the point everyone gets what they want without having to make sad eyes at their neighbour, or guilt them into giving them their dinner!
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Apparently, if we import this practice into other cultures, there will be a rash of people lying about their dietary needs in order to get their neighbour's meals?

    And you thought you sent your criminals over here...
  • I once gave up my first choice of meal on a flight in the US, to help a fellow passenger who didn’t want the only option left to him (he had upgraded, so got last choice). He then promptly asked the cabin crew to serve his meal as late as possible, as he’d had a late lunch and wasn’t hungry yet...

    (I got exemplary service for the rest of the flight. He was lucky not to end up wearing the roast beef).
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »

    We're a lot less formal than you. I didn't understand this until the first time I went to the USA, but there's a lot less formal politeness here. We aren't exactly devoid of class structure the way we'd like to believe, but fundamentally talking to strangers doesn't require much in the way of introductions.

    And as it normally happens with the main course only, you should be on some sort of speaking terms with your table neighbours by then. If there's been no first course, and so no idle chat, not a bad way to start.

    Wait, what dinners are you going to? I'm used to it happening for all 3 courses.

    I think even in Sydney. So there.

    You must lead a fancier life than we do. I can't remember one where there was a choice in other than the main.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    I spent three years in Australia and never came across this plate swapping, even on formal occasions. Is it a regional thing?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    edited January 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    <snip>
    And you thought you sent your criminals over here...
    Only the ones who got caught…
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    If I get a take away pizza I eat it with my hands. At a restaurant I always use a knife and fork.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Apparently, if we import this practice into other cultures, there will be a rash of people lying about their dietary needs in order to get their neighbour's meals?

    And you thought you sent your criminals over here...

    I didn't pick up on anyone saying that others would lie as a matter of course to get a better meal than the one presented with? I thought we were just talking about when the person next to you says 'can we swap, I can't eat this!' Is there an etiquette surrounding any explanations given; whether someone may say 'no, I don't want to swap' etc? But now that you mention it, yes, maybe someone would simply just prefer the chicken to the beef or vice versa! I'm usually one of those people who often fancies what other people have on their plate, and wonder why I didn't order what they ordered!

  • But if both prefer the chicken - or the beef . . . .
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Leorning Cniht--

    Re not picking up a whole pizza:

    Is this a very small pizza for one person? Or one of the various larger sizes for multiple people (or one hungry/pizza-craving person)?

    A plate-sized pizza for one person. I'd hardly call it "very small" - I'm invariably replete after eating one. I suppose it's about a foot in diameter or so, although I usually eat my dinner rather than measure it.
    Hmmm. Anywhere around here, I would expect a pizza that size to be sliced into quarters, at least. At one of my favorite pizza places, that’s the size of the pizzas. They’re sliced into quarters before being served; I use a knife to “finish” the slicing if the pizza cutter didn’t quite go all the way through the crust or if there’s some stubborn cheese. It’s hands only from then on out.

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    ... I had no idea it was Australia-specific until my boss was responsible for organising a conference in Edinburgh (because he was, at the time, head of an international organisation), and arranged it and then found out from the caterers it was basically unheard of.

    So he explained to the delegates how the conference dinner was going to work on the afternoon before. It was hilarious. You had every other nationality grabbing the nearest Australian and saying "Seriously, is this real? He's not joking? Does this mean if I don't like my meal I might have to talk to the person next to me about a swap?!!".

    Whereas every Australian was grabbing the nearest New Zealander and saying "Seriously, even you haven't heard of this?"

    In Australia, I would be surprised if I went to either a wedding reception or a conference dinner and this DIDN'T happen.
    Seriously, that is really weird. I'm not surprised the Scottish caterers had never heard of it.

    Why? Even the argument that some might like beef and some might like chicken is no excuse. If there are two option, let the diners choose which one they are given. Ask them. Let them choose. Don't impose the choice on them.

    If I went to a conference dinner and was told there was a choice of dishes, but that the boss was going to decide which dish I had, not me, I'd be really annoyed. It would have a major effect on how I felt about the rest of the conference and the people running it.

    If your boss had had any sense at all, he would have accepted that as the meal was in Scotland, it would be Scottish food served in a Scottish way. Scotland isn't some remote and backward country without its cuisine, customs and practices or caterers who know how things should be done.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    If I went to a conference dinner and was told there was a choice of dishes, but that the boss was going to decide which dish I had, not me, I'd be really annoyed. It would have a major effect on how I felt about the rest of the conference and the people running it.
    I think our Diocesan Convention meals are now buffet style (not sure, I haven't been for quite a while). However, they used to offer a choice of three main dishes for the major dinner. The Rector at the church where I used to work couldn't be bothered to ask all the delegates before sending in the registration, so he would decide for the whole group. He usually chose the beef, but one year he was trying out vegetarianism (actually, I think it was his wife's idea not his, but every diet she went on he was forced to go along with), so all of the delegates had the vegetarian dish that year.
    :angry:
  • rhubarb wrote: »
    I've always hated the alternating meals at dinners. I always seem to end up with something I either loathe or am allergic to. Some people are happy to swap, but others cling to their plates. Once I had to tell the waitress that I would be unable to eat what she had served due to seafood allergy and she was most unhappy with me as she had to go back to the kitchen and ask for a replacement.
    I am sorry to tell you that the practice of alternating dishes has already spread to the UK.

    I was at a wedding reception where it also seemed to mean the hosts did not need to ask guests in advance if they had food allergies and the caterers took the view that it did not matter, since guests could always swap.
  • I think this sounds pretty appalling. Suppose you preferred what you had been given, but your neighbour was very pressing in trying to get you to swap, but you really dislike what he had? Do you absolutely refuse and cause bad feeling, or what?
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited January 2020
    I'm finding this hilarious. Surely one meal isn't such a huge freaking deal? Unless there are medical reasons, of course.

    I mean, even with the annoying vegeterian boss, the bother only lasts for a couple hours or so, and then you've got a funny story to tell for the rest of your life. Might be worth it.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I spent three years in Australia and never came across this plate swapping, even on formal occasions. Is it a regional thing?

    Not as far as I know. It's only at wedding receptions, conference dinners and so forth.
  • I've had the alternating plates with puddings only at a summer evening group dinner in the UK. On 2 of the 3 occasions I've had to swap with Mr Dragon as it's strawberries or fruit salad and I'm mildly allergic to kiwi fruit.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Leorning Cniht--

    Then we eat a slice with our hands, get delightfully messy, then use up a bunch of paper napkins!
    :)

    All I can say is don't ask for paper napkins in Quebec...
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2020
    I'm finding this hilarious. Surely one meal isn't such a huge freaking deal? Unless there are medical reasons, of course.

    I'm finding it hilarious as well. I mean, here's a situation that people in this country have navigated perfectly successfully for I don't know how long (several decades at least), and various Shipmates seem to think it would cause the world to end.

    As to why do it rather than give people a choice, the simple answer is that it's simpler. Organising a wedding dinner or conference dinner is a nightmare as it is. Keeping track of who is coming, who isn't, where they're sitting, last minute changes to all of the above.

    Also recording what each one of those people wants for each course of a 3-course meal (and expecting them to know what their tastebuds are going to be inclined towards that far in advance) is an extra layer of complexity that some Australian somewhere decided was a complete fucking waste of time. I sure as hell couldn't guarantee you months in advance when answering an invitation/registering for a conference what I'm going to want for dinner. So what's the point of asking?

    Or maybe around here there's enough of us who aren't so damn precious that we can't get through a single meal that's not the best culinary experience of our lives (when the meal isn't even the main reason for being there). I mean, sure, it's considered notable if both options are enjoyable. If not, so long as they're edible, everyone copes. We got fed. And quicker.

  • @orfeo you seem to be misunderstanding how American catering works. When someone here gives a banquet dinner, they generally don't ask you what you want. You're going to get the chicken unless you have special dietary needs and make them known early. (Chicken, or whatever it is they have planned.) Much easier and cheaper to cook one dish than two.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    mousethief wrote: »
    @orfeo you seem to be misunderstanding how American catering works. When someone here gives a banquet dinner, they generally don't ask you what you want. You're going to get the chicken unless you have special dietary needs and make them known early. (Chicken, or whatever it is they have planned.) Much easier and cheaper to cook one dish than two.

    It was more the UK folk I was referring to.

    They're upset enough about us whacking 2 dishes down on the table. Wait until they figure out you only offer one...
  • Actually, we throw open the doors of the hall and make you go hunt down your dinner. With icecream forks.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    *Googles icecream fork*

    Oh right. Kind of like a splade.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    It is a simple system that works well. And as for talking to a stranger - aren't you going to be sitting next to that person for 3 course meal before a whole series of speeches?
  • Gee D wrote: »
    It is a simple system that works well. And as for talking to a stranger - aren't you going to be sitting next to that person for 3 course meal before a whole series of speeches?

    They let you eat without blabbing at you? You guys really ARE civilized.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I have been to more conference dinners than you've had, er, hot dinners in both Britain and a fair number of other European countries. Where it's not been a buffet, then it's been the same dishes for all (bar dietary exceptions).

    I think what is startling is the idea that the food should be the subject of social interaction, rather than something that simply appears before you while you continue to discuss probabilistic seismic hazard or whatever it is you're conferencing about.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Hmm. This sounds like an absolute nightmare if you're on the Autistic spectrum. Having to negotiate that there will be two dishes, one of which you may not be able to eat (intolerances, allergies and aversions seem to be more common in people on the AS) and that the solution will be to negotiate with people who may be total strangers on either side of you in the hope they want to swap... I can feel my heart rate increasing just thinking about it.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    I don't know. You'll have to ask some autistic Australians how much of your reaction is just cultural.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    I don't know. You'll have to ask some autistic Australians how much of your reaction is just cultural.

    Which is what I'm currently doing.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I'm amazed that a simple local custom could have sparked so many comments.
  • If you're providing two dishes surely the easiest thing to do is to ask people which they would prefer. Sure, it means having available more of each dish than a straight half of the numbers attending, but then kitchen and waiting staff need to eat too.

    Speaking as someone with a pretty severe food intolerance the insousiant throwaway line of how bad can it be needs to be addressed: the answer is bad enough to need a trip to A&E. For those who'd advise asking for a list of allergens, that isn't an answer because the list in the UK tends to stick to only 10 of the most common things that set people off - my intolerance isn't covered.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Speaking as someone with a pretty severe food intolerance the insousiant throwaway line of how bad can it be needs to be addressed: the answer is bad enough to need a trip to A&E. For those who'd advise asking for a list of allergens, that isn't an answer because the list in the UK tends to stick to only 10 of the most common things that set people off - my intolerance isn't covered.

    As said somewhere above, you'd let the hosts know beforehand if you had an allergy or some other reason for a particular style of dish. I suppose that with vegetarianism becoming more common these days, you'd let your host know that.

  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited January 2020
    If you're providing two dishes surely the easiest thing to do is to ask people which they would prefer. Sure, it means having available more of each dish than a straight half of the numbers attending, but then kitchen and waiting staff need to eat too.

    Speaking as someone with a pretty severe food intolerance the insousiant throwaway line of how bad can it be needs to be addressed: the answer is bad enough to need a trip to A&E. For those who'd advise asking for a list of allergens, that isn't an answer because the list in the UK tends to stick to only 10 of the most common things that set people off - my intolerance isn't covered.

    Absolutely.

    My allergy is to melon - so very easy to avoid, unlike some allergens.

    But, if I do eat it by mistake, I go into anaphylactic shock. Then I have to use my epipen and call an ambulance.

    So I like to know the ingredients of my meals - especially the starters, sweets and cocktails where melon can lurk undetected until it’s too late.

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    @orfeo you seem to be misunderstanding how American catering works. When someone here gives a banquet dinner, they generally don't ask you what you want. You're going to get the chicken unless you have special dietary needs and make them known early. (Chicken, or whatever it is they have planned.) Much easier and cheaper to cook one dish than two.
    That's what usually happens here. There's the standard meal + a vegetarian option. The person organising the event is expected to ask people to warn them beforehand if they are vegetarians or have any dietary restrictions, allergies etc. and these days expects to do so. If a guest doesn't response, they get the standard meal and hard luck.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    No choice unless you're vegetarian!!!!!
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited January 2020
    I'm bewildered by the idea that at a function where you are a guest you expect a choice?

    Does this happen at private dinner parties?

    (On a side note, suppose you've already sloshed out your glass of Chardonnay to drink with your Chicken Marengo, and then feel obliged to swap it for your neighbour's Boeuf en Daube - do you get to swop glasses as well?)
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    People, there is usually a menu. It's not as if we strap people with allergies into their seats and declare that they must play Russian Roulette with whatever lands in front of them without any preparation.

    Honestly, some of the comments completely mystify me given we've established that in some other parts of the world, 2 dishes would represent an increase in options.

    It's one of those all-too-common situations where half the concerns that have zero to do with the actual circumstances and just come about because folks are hearing about something new.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    It's one of those all-too-common situations where half the concerns that have zero to do with the actual circumstances and just come about because folks are hearing about something new.

    Nice Bulverism. How dare people have reasons for what they think or feel. They must be doing it because I know something they don't.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2020
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    It's one of those all-too-common situations where half the concerns that have zero to do with the actual circumstances and just come about because folks are hearing about something new.

    Nice Bulverism. How dare people have reasons for what they think or feel. They must be doing it because I know something they don't.

    No, I'm saying that because if an objection would be equally applicable to a different dinner format, it's not a valid complaint about this dinner format.

    This happens all the time. Like the Australian same-sex marriage debate, where almost all of the things people claimed SSM would bring about where things that already existed without SSM. Or at work I sometimes get people worrying about something "new" in the legislation I'm writing which has actually been there in the previous version of the legislation for many years.

    People just don't tend to think about existing circumstances until they're presented with new circumstances. But then half the things they worry about in the new circumstances were already present in the existing circumstances. That's the logical fallacy.
  • They're not arguing about the half that already exists. Swapping plates with the person next to you doesn't already exist in American or Scottish catering. I am sure of the former, and have good authority from this thread on the latter. You seem to be dividing the case in half, berating people for one half, and by so doing denigrating or dismissing their concerns in the other.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    It just seems an odd way of allocating the two options. Asking people which they'd like would seem, well, more efficient.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Yes I know swapping plates doesn't otherwise exist. But we've gone on to a range of other issues besides swapping plates. Like allergies.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    KarlLB wrote: »
    It just seems an odd way of allocating the two options. Asking people which they'd like would seem, well, more efficient.

    Not giving an option would be even more efficient.
  • Only having one plate is the most.
  • Asking people to indicate ahead of time isn’t as efficient as you might hope—so many won’t RSVP and you have to freaking hunt them down with a butterfly net.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Asking people to indicate ahead of time isn’t as efficient as you might hope—so many won’t RSVP and you have to freaking hunt them down with a butterfly net.

    Yes.

    Also, I can foresee any number of people on the day saying "oh, is it too late to change my order?". Because in my very limited experience being within earshot of conference dinner organisation, who is coming and who isn't ends up being fluid right up until the day, so I would expect people to have second thoughts about what they want to eat as well.

    Forward planning is only efficient if you can somehow force people to stick to it!
  • Australian conference attendees are just used to the alternate-drop method of serving. Wait staff will often ask if the recipient has a preference, so that the negotiation with a neighbour is not necessary.

    Mrs BA has multiple uncommon food allergies, and over the last decade has attended at least two state or national conferences per year in my company. We have found that advance notification of her issues is treated highly professionally, and her needs well-catered for. Where we do have issues is with airline travel where, despite advance notice, even the most highly-rated companies struggle to provide an adequate service.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Australian conference attendees are just used to the alternate-drop method of serving. Wait staff will often ask if the recipient has a preference, so that the negotiation with a neighbour is not necessary.

    TBF, the last conference dinner (December past, in France) the waiter offered a choice of two dishes. But that was fairly small gathering of c. 40 people.

    Of far more impact on these occasions is not whether there's a choice, but how efficiently it's served. Number of times it's Start Time + 1 or more hours, and you're still nibbling on the last of the bread are all too frequent.
  • Vietnamese weddings were so well known for this some years ago that it was a hard rule not to turn up to the reception until at least two hours past the stated time.
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