Please see Styx thread on the Registered Shipmates consultation for the main discussion forums - your views are important, continues until April 4th.

Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

13536384041131

Comments

  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    Gee D wrote: »
    I'm amazed that a simple local custom could have sparked so many comments.
    It's a horrible local custom. People should be able to have choices without having to launch into negotiations with someone they don't know. I have several food allergies and sensitivities, and I have enough problems getting a dinner I can eat without that crap.

  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    So, otherwise... you would sit there with your chosen meal, staring down rigidly at your plate and not making eye contact with the strangers on either side of you?

    Sounds like a fun dinner.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    So, otherwise... you would sit there with your chosen meal, staring down rigidly at your plate and not making eye contact with the strangers on either side of you?

    There is a considerable difference between negotiating with your neighbour to exchange meals and engaging in small talk over a pleasant meal. At least for non-Australians.

    The claim being made by you and the other Australians here is that to you, it's not so different, which I'll take as an example of Australian cultural informality or something. I wonder whether introverted and anxious Australians find it equally as comfortable to do one as the other - I'm prepared to believe that they do, but curious to know.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    orfeo wrote: »
    So, otherwise... you would sit there with your chosen meal, staring down rigidly at your plate and not making eye contact with the strangers on either side of you?

    There is a considerable difference between negotiating with your neighbour to exchange meals and engaging in small talk over a pleasant meal. At least for non-Australians.

    The claim being made by you and the other Australians here is that to you, it's not so different, which I'll take as an example of Australian cultural informality or something. I wonder whether introverted and anxious Australians find it equally as comfortable to do one as the other - I'm prepared to believe that they do, but curious to know.

    Well in fact I nearly said in my last post, the menu actually gives you something to talk about. It creates a conversation for small talk.

    I also hesitate to agree with the notion that it's a question of dealing with "total strangers" in that there's invariably a context. Either you're all guests at a wedding, in which case you know that there's some social connection there however distant and you've all just been to a wedding ceremony together, or you're all attending a conference in which case you have something in common there (such as the field you work in) and most likely you've seen each other in the room during the day/previous days.

    Truth be told, one time at a conference I deliberately sat down next to a guy who I'd seen during the conference and I was pretty sure he was gay... I don't recall swapping meals but we did swap phone numbers...

    I don't imagine I'd be completely comfortable doing it in a completely random setting with people I've simply never laid eyes on before. But that's not how it happens.

    Ironically, at the dinner in Edinburgh, the whole novelty of the situation was itself part of the recipe for small talk. Everyone had been through the announcement in the afternoon about how the dinner was going to work, so everyone's small talk consisted of discussing how weird and strange it was to contemplate swapping plates... either with the person who was agreeing it was weird and strange or whichever Australian happened to be at the table.

    So by the time the plates arrived, no-one was sitting next to a "total stranger" they'd never exchanged a word with.
  • In some ways sharing one's meal with someone else is not much different than going to a Chinese, Thai, or Indian restaurant, everyone ordering different dishes than sharing portions of those dishes with everyone else at the table, is it not?
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    In some ways sharing one's meal with someone else is not much different than going to a Chinese, Thai, or Indian restaurant, everyone ordering different dishes than sharing portions of those dishes with everyone else at the table, is it not?
    A custom I despise. I like to choose and eat what I want from a menu -- not dig in to what everyone else has chosen. (Even worse -- at an Ethiopian where I once ate, not only were everyone's choices dumped in the middle of the table, but there was no flatware, just hands. The only good thing was that I was with my mother and sister, not strangers or casual acquaintances.)

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    And as for negotiations - pretty minimal. You turn top one of your neighbours and say that you've got the beef, would they like to swap their chicken. All very simple and it works.

    Rossweisse, with that sort of particular requirement you'd let you hosts know well beforehand, they tell the caterers and you get a meal you can eat. Probably much as you do now.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Another factor in attending American events:

    IME, attendees tend to have mixed feelings at best about going.

    You'll probably have to listen to speeches, lectures, or other presentations. If it's a work or professional event, the boss will likely be there, plus lots of people you may or may not know, who you may or may not like (and vice versa). You may worry about your dining manners--or theirs. If alcohol is involved, people's negative traits may come out. If it's a wedding reception/dinner, there may well be people there who *absolutely don't get along with each other*--and if they don't get into a verbal/fist fight, it will only be because there will be witnesses, and someone might call the cops.

    Similar cautions apply to other sorts of events. Not to mention probably dressing up to an uncomfortable degree, and knowing it'll probably be a few hours before you can get home (or to your hotel room), switch those clothes for a bathrobe, and collapse.

    When it comes to food, you may think "If I have to go to this **** thing, they **** well better feed me well". You may worry about choices, or not having any; whether your neighbor's food is better than yours; whether the food's been sitting out too long, and may be a little unsafe, and you remember that news story you heard; you wonder if the caterers will run out of food, especially *your* chosen food. And if you're the other way around, expecting great food and a delightful time, you may be disappointed.

    Then there's always the problem of trying to stay/appear awake.

    A situation that affords many opportunities for fraughtness.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited January 2020
    You'r right, this sort of dinner is rarely all that enjoyable. But the "negotiation" is not that involved or difficult. You turn to the guest on one side and introduce yourself and the conversation goes like this

    Hello, I don't think we've met before. I'm Wotan.
    Hello, I'm Sally. Wotan's a pretty unusual name.
    Yes, isn't it. My parents were in Europe one year and went to Bayreuth (you've learnt not to say that they were on a Woman's Weekly tour that gave 10 countries in 7 days). When they got back here, they found that I was on the way and so the name just followed
    Mine is just the name of my mother's best friend at school. Nowhere near as interesting a story as yours. Ah, here's the food.
    Oh, I've got the beef - would you like to swap it for the chicken?

    And with a bit of luck, she suggests that you give her a lift home and the rest falls into place.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    I'm finding this hilarious. Surely one meal isn't such a huge freaking deal? Unless there are medical reasons, of course.

    I'm finding it hilarious as well. I mean, here's a situation that people in this country have navigated perfectly successfully for I don't know how long (several decades at least), and various Shipmates seem to think it would cause the world to end.

    As to why do it rather than give people a choice, the simple answer is that it's simpler. Organising a wedding dinner or conference dinner is a nightmare as it is. Keeping track of who is coming, who isn't, where they're sitting, last minute changes to all of the above.

    Also recording what each one of those people wants for each course of a 3-course meal (and expecting them to know what their tastebuds are going to be inclined towards that far in advance) is an extra layer of complexity that some Australian somewhere decided was a complete fucking waste of time. I sure as hell couldn't guarantee you months in advance when answering an invitation/registering for a conference what I'm going to want for dinner. So what's the point of asking?

    Or maybe around here there's enough of us who aren't so damn precious that we can't get through a single meal that's not the best culinary experience of our lives (when the meal isn't even the main reason for being there). I mean, sure, it's considered notable if both options are enjoyable. If not, so long as they're edible, everyone copes. We got fed. And quicker.

    It's certainly not the end of the world! But it must be mainly about cultural expectations. So it's not entirely fair to accuse people of being 'precious' in response to a practice that might seem to them perplexing, unnecessary and almost like a type of rudeness. Most people in the UK throwing (usually quite large amounts of) money at a caterers (or at a conference facility) for a special meal would expect them to be thoroughly capable of providing two or three set options, note the order at time of seating and deliver the food within a reasonable time-frame. Bog standard expectation the British Isles over, I'd say.

    In polite and semi-formal company, it might even be a bit rude to comment too much on another person's food, let alone ask them to swap it with you for yours! But clearly expectations and practice vary in other parts of the globe. So what may seem to one side of the world like a needless and impertinent haggling over one's dinner with one's neighbour, will seem like a simple and efficient way of feeding faces to the other!

    It has to be said, of course, that especially at Christmas time one is used to one choice only for catered dinners, so the possibility of a 'set dinner' having two choices where the diners can swap if they'd prefer to, is not perhaps such an oddity as it might seem! Though these tend to be in slightly less formal settings. But again that rather underlines that cultural expectation is very important when it comes to things like these.



  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    *Here in the US*, it really would be weird and/or rude. If you were asking a *friend* to swap, it *might* be barely acceptable.

    (Painting with a somewhat broad brush.)
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Anselmina wrote: »

    It's certainly not the end of the world! But it must be mainly about cultural expectations. So it's not entirely fair to accuse people of being 'precious' in response to a practice that might seem to them perplexing, unnecessary and almost like a type of rudeness. Most people in the UK throwing (usually quite large amounts of) money at a caterers (or at a conference facility) for a special meal would expect them to be thoroughly capable of providing two or three set options, note the order at time of seating and deliver the food within a reasonable time-frame. Bog standard expectation the British Isles over, I'd say.
    [/quote]

    But how many times does someone here have to say that it is a standard practice before posts such as yours And Golden Key's (not picking on you, but these are the 2 most recent} accept that is is accepted here and works well?
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2020
    Maybe we can move on...

    How about we discuss the roasting temperature inside European buildings (or the freezing temperature inside Australian ones)?

    I remember THAT coming up in the Edinburgh conference actually...

    Or to keep it with language, we can discuss what kind of food "chips" are in different places. That's a classic where Australia borrowed from the UK and the USA in exactly the wrong kind of way.
  • I’m glad it works well for you. I am objecting to the export of the practice to places where it is not customary. When table companions choose not to swap but the caterers/waiting staff take no responsibility because they have provided an alternative - just not to you - is to sit and make polite conversation and watch your neighbours eat. Leaving a conference dinner may be acceptable; leaving a wedding reception I feel is less so.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory

    Gee D--
    Gee D wrote: »

    But how many times does someone here have to say that it is a standard practice before posts such as yours And Golden Key's (not picking on you, but these are the 2 most recent} accept that is is accepted here and works well?

    Respectfully: And did you notice I emphasized that I was speaking only of the US?

    It's a matter of culture shock. Never occurred to many/most non-Aussie Shipmates that anyone would do that. And it's hard to believe that anyone *does*--it's that much of a culture shock.

    And the shock also applies to (some) Australian Shipmates, who think the rest of us are weird, stand-offish, and "precious".

    FYI, FWIW, etc.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Certainly, your last 2 posts are directed to the US (have not checked further back) and withdraw what I said.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    And as for negotiations - pretty minimal. You turn top one of your neighbours and say that you've got the beef, would they like to swap their chicken. All very simple and it works.
    And if they say no? Now you're still stuck with a meal you don't want while you watch your neighbors on both sides eating the meal you would prefer, with a bit of resentment thrown in. Doesn't sound like a way to make new friends.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited January 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    Maybe we can move on...

    How about we discuss the roasting temperature inside European buildings (or the freezing temperature inside Australian ones)?

    We could discuss the way that American buildings seem to be many degrees colder in summer than in winter, and roll our eyes at the seeming reluctance of people to wear a jumper / sweater / pullover / whatever you call a warm wool or similar garment that you wear over a shirt for warmth.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Years ago I remember someone saying that in America a scarf was a fashion accessory, but in Britain it was a life saver.
  • Years ago I remember someone saying that in America a scarf was a fashion accessory, but in Britain it was a life saver.
    That all depends on where in the US one is experiencing winter.

  • orfeo wrote: »
    Maybe we can move on...

    How about we discuss the roasting temperature inside European buildings (or the freezing temperature inside Australian ones)?

    We could discuss the way that American buildings seem to be many degrees colder in summer than in winter, and roll our eyes at the seeming reluctance of people to wear a jumper / sweater / pullover / whatever you call a warm wool or similar garment that you wear over a shirt for warmth.

    ... Or alternately the ... density... of people who think that "throw a sweater on!" will solve the problem of hands too cold to type! (frozen nose, frozen toes, etc.)
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited January 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    I also hesitate to agree with the notion that it's a question of dealing with "total strangers" in that there's invariably a context. Either you're all guests at a wedding, in which case you know that there's some social connection there however distant and you've all just been to a wedding ceremony together

    In which case you don't need a bizarre plate-swapping ritual to have something to talk about.
    , or you're all attending a conference in which case you have something in common there (such as the field you work in) and most likely you've seen each other in the room during the day/previous days.

    In which case you don't need a bizarre plate-swapping ritual to have something to talk about.
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    In some ways sharing one's meal with someone else is not much different than going to a Chinese, Thai, or Indian restaurant, everyone ordering different dishes than sharing portions of those dishes with everyone else at the table, is it not?
    A custom I despise. I like to choose and eat what I want from a menu -- not dig in to what everyone else has chosen. (Even worse -- at an Ethiopian where I once ate, not only were everyone's choices dumped in the middle of the table, but there was no flatware, just hands. The only good thing was that I was with my mother and sister, not strangers or casual acquaintances.)

    There's a great deal more choice involved -- both in companions and in level of meal-sharing by restaurant type -- in going out with a few comrades and going to a conference.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    And as for negotiations - pretty minimal. You turn top one of your neighbours and say that you've got the beef, would they like to swap their chicken. All very simple and it works.
    And if they say no? Now you're still stuck with a meal you don't want while you watch your neighbors on both sides eating the meal you would prefer, with a bit of resentment thrown in. Doesn't sound like a way to make new friends.

    Resentment? I give up.

  • ... Or alternately the ... density... of people who think that "throw a sweater on!" will solve the problem of hands too cold to type! (frozen nose, frozen toes, etc.)

    Funnily enough, "hands too cold to type" is a problem I only have in the summer, because of the aggressive air conditioning that is inflicted on us.

    Besides, density is definitely not my problem. I'm not dense at all. I have rather too much volume, and my density is rather less than it should be. These are not unconnected.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    And as for negotiations - pretty minimal. You turn top one of your neighbours and say that you've got the beef, would they like to swap their chicken. All very simple and it works.
    And if they say no?

    They won't.

    I'm quite interested in the idea that in these other, more formally polite cultures, they MIGHT.

  • Making a living in stone boxes with minimal heating for only part of the week I've become expert in layering clothes :grimace:

    It always amazes me that we get brides turning up in November in a strapless dress - gooseflesh is not a good look.
  • My comment about density referred to the mentally "dense" in offices worldwide, who turn the thermostat down to some ungodly number (usually in summer) and to all complaints, retort that the complainer "should just throw a sweater on!" The complainer is usually female, probably iron-deficient, often smaller than the (usually male) controller-of-the-thermostat, and most likely working on a keyboard which does not take kindly to gloves. A fucking sweater isn't going to cut it. Try a whole body snowsuit with gloves and a tongue controller for the computer.
  • Maybe you *should* try that. It might get the message across! If nothing else, the resulting photo could be stuck under the air con remote, as a dire warning to others.

    I have long been of the opinion that males should never be allowed to set church air conditioning ( apologies to half the world’s population) because it looks stupid to be wearing half your wardrobe to church when it’s 40 + degrees outside.
  • .

    orfeo wrote: »
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    And as for negotiations - pretty minimal. You turn top one of your neighbours and say that you've got the beef, would they like to swap their chicken. All very simple and it works.
    And if they say no?

    They won't.

    I'm quite interested in the idea that in these other, more formally polite cultures, they MIGHT.

    So you're forcing them to give up what they want to make you happy. And they won't resent that.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Athrawes wrote: »
    Maybe you *should* try that. It might get the message across! If nothing else, the resulting photo could be stuck under the air con remote, as a dire warning to others.

    I have long been of the opinion that males should never be allowed to set church air conditioning ( apologies to half the world’s population) because it looks stupid to be wearing half your wardrobe to church when it’s 40 + degrees outside.

    Although it might mean you putting up with us in sleeveless vests and shorts.

  • That will not be a problem.
  • Nope. Go naked for all I care.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I had a flatmate worked in a very big library. Some visiting high heid yin found the meeting room too hot and decreed a maximum temperature for the whole building - fine for south-facing rooms with windows, bloody Siberia in the stacks.
  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host
    I'm hoping things have moved on naturally, but this is just a gentle Hostly note that the discussion of swapping plates at Australian dinners has several times veered over the line from "Wow, aren't our different customs interesting!" to "People are idiots for liking/disliking my cultural thing." Please remember to keep things civil and Heavenly as we compare our different cultures, and also, let's stop talking about Australian dinner-swapping. That topic has officially run its course.

    Trudy, Heavenly Host
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Re Aircon - it's very odd really how some people (e.g. me) can be sweating in a shirt while other people are shivering in a fleece. I'm not sure how we can accommodate everyone.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Re Aircon - it's very odd really how some people (e.g. me) can be sweating in a shirt while other people are shivering in a fleece. I'm not sure how we can accommodate everyone.

    I think at a minimum, you can expect people who are hot to strip down to shirt sleeves, and people who are cold to wear an extra layer. That helps - it allows the cold people to tolerate a somewhat colder room, and the hot people to tolerate a hotter room. It can only work so far, though - if your hands are too cold to comfortably type, a sweater doesn't do much. In my experience, it's drafts that are more of a problem for hands than temperature per se - if you sit by the door, or in the airflow from an AC vent, you'll have cold hands. You can do better by paying attention to airflow (but nobody ever does), and you can sometimes mitigate things like AC vents by putting diverters on them to direct the flow away from your keyboard.


  • with regard to cold hands, I find wrist warmers are really helpful. The company I had mine from - made from recycled cashmere jumpers! - reckons that if your wrists are warm, you feel a lot warmer generally.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Re Aircon - it's very odd really how some people (e.g. me) can be sweating in a shirt while other people are shivering in a fleece. I'm not sure how we can accommodate everyone.

    I think at a minimum, you can expect people who are hot to strip down to shirt sleeves, and people who are cold to wear an extra layer. That helps - it allows the cold people to tolerate a somewhat colder room, and the hot people to tolerate a hotter room. It can only work so far, though - if your hands are too cold to comfortably type, a sweater doesn't do much. In my experience, it's drafts that are more of a problem for hands than temperature per se - if you sit by the door, or in the airflow from an AC vent, you'll have cold hands. You can do better by paying attention to airflow (but nobody ever does), and you can sometimes mitigate things like AC vents by putting diverters on them to direct the flow away from your keyboard.


    I'm in shirt sleeves all year round. I would very seldom want to wear a jumper or jacket indoors.
  • It's probably much too invasive, but having a company-wide optional screening for iron deficiency would go a long way. And DON'T focus it only on the women.
  • My hands are always cold in the winter (I had every medical test known to man, and 94% known to woman; I just have cold hands). I found stretchy gloves for needleworkers really help. They're thin enough to allow full motion. They don't cover the fingers but having the back of the hands covered really helps.
  • CAPSICUM.

    In the US it means the pepper family in general, from the bland to the oh-my-god-make-it-stop. In other places I am given to understand that it means a certain kind of plant in the pepper family, and its pod (what we call "bell peppers"). Seeking enlightenment from English-speakers of other regions of the world.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited January 2020
    mousethief wrote: »
    CAPSICUM.

    In the US it means the pepper family in general, from the bland to the oh-my-god-make-it-stop. In other places I am given to understand that it means a certain kind of plant in the pepper family, and its pod (what we call "bell peppers"). Seeking enlightenment from English-speakers of other regions of the world.

    In my neck of the woods we don't use the word, although if pressed we'd define it as what you call a bell pepper.

    Bell peppers we just call peppers.

    The hot ones we call chillis.

    They are thought of as rather different things; the bland ones are vegetables (I did some with onions and mushrooms in the griddle pan with the toad in the hole tonight) whereas the hot ones are more a cooking ingredient for spicy dishes, usually curry or chilli. To confuse things we call the beef and kidney bean spicy thing chilli as well. Chilli con carne is the Sunday Best name but I'm told the name is nearly as inauthentic as the recipes we use for it.

    But I digress.
  • Down here, it's "capsicum" for bell peppers and "chilli peppers" or just "chillis" for the other sort. Usage much as KarlLB suggests.

    As an aside, Australians seem to struggle with the pronunciation of Spanish words in the context of food - so you hear "chilly con carn" and "halapeeno", in an odd sort of halfway house.
  • My wife works at the Washington State University Library. Turns out the lights in the building generate so much heat they have the air conditioning system on year around. Her desk is right under the air duct. Consequently, she has to wear a sweater year-round.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Time they switched to LEDs. Save on energy cost of lighting, save on air conditioning.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Kittyville wrote: »
    Down here, it's "capsicum" for bell peppers and "chilli peppers" or just "chillis" for the other sort. Usage much as KarlLB suggests.

    As an aside, Australians seem to struggle with the pronunciation of Spanish words in the context of food - so you hear "chilly con carn" and "halapeeno", in an odd sort of halfway house.

    Add "Choritso" to that. We quite often hear an English J on Jalapeño. English speakers seem to find the idea that diacritics aren't purely ornamental quite difficult. Another halfway house popular in the UK is getting the "z" right in Ibiza but pronouncing the initial vowel like English "eye".
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Us ones have had the Spanish holiday say 'coreetho' and 'yallapaino'.
  • Priscilla wrote: »
    with regard to cold hands, I find wrist warmers are really helpful. The company I had mine from - made from recycled cashmere jumpers! - reckons that if your wrists are warm, you feel a lot warmer generally.
    I have a pair of silk fingerless gloves by my computer as my home office can get cold.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I agree with @KarlLB. Word 'capsicum' is not used here.

    'Red' or 'Green Peppers' = the vegetable.
    'Pepper' = the powder one sprinkles on food and adds to a lot of dishes, preferably little black corns that one grinds in a mill at the table but also available as a powder.
    'Chilli' usually though plural = the little hot fiery red berries, usually sold dried which are also the main ingredient of a lot of hot sauces.

    Chilli con carne is pronounced as @Kittyville classes as the Australian pronunciation, "chilly con carn". I'm not sure how else one might say it. Pronouncing the 'carn' as two syllables, which is the only other option I can think of, would sound as affected as Paree or Madreeth.

    The usual Brenglish pronunciation of Ibiza is Eye-beetha. I think it's fair to say that any other way of pronouncing it proclaims either ignorance or affectation. Likewise Majorca is Mǝ-yorka. Pronouncing the 'j' as a 'j' proclaims one's ignorance. Pronouncing it as a throttled guttural sound proclaims affectation.


    Where a place name differs between two languages or has a different pronunciation in one language from the other, one should take its form or pronunciation from the language one is speaking at the time. So, in an English sentence, Swansea. In a Welsh one Abertawe (four syllables). Antwerp is Antwerp in English, pronounced as spelt, irrespective of whatever it is in the various languages spoken in the area. There are some oddities and irregularities about this. Bratislava hasn't really got a specifically English name. It's usually Bratislava, but I think if you were actually speaking German at the time, it would be Pressburg.

    Seville, where the barber and the oranges come from, is Sǝvill with the stress on the second syllable. It is not Seveeyǝ. However, I think the oranges themselves are suppose to be pronounced Sevǝl with the stress on the first syllable.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Surprised to hear you think car-ney would sound affected. I've never heard it pronounced any other way since I was first introduced to the dish in the late 70s.
Sign In or Register to comment.