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Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    I used to read that ravens were not found east of a line from the Isle of Wight to either the Wash or the Humber. Nice to hear of some at Dover - wish they'd gone there when I lived there!
    Also nice mythologically. Malory possibly plagiarised the Mabinogion when he told of Gawaine's head being placed in the castle at Dover as a magical defence of the realm - this head being on display when he visited the place*. Since there is a connection between Bran whose head was similarly placed at the Tower of London, and the Tower's ravens, to have ravens close by Gawaine would be interesting!
    I once saw a mob of jays in the chalk pit by the Bluewater mall, gathered around the body of one which had obviously fallen foul of the traffic. They were looking bothered, not as if they were considering it as carrion.
    *I used to fantasise of having a visitor to Dover waving Malory about and demanding to see Gawaine's head - not in evidence recently. This imaginary visitor was always, in my mind, for some reason, American.
  • There are ravens in the South Downs - I saw some a few years ago when walking near Chanctonbury Ring.
  • I often see bunches of crows at our local bird reserve, probably 100. But in rural areas the solitary corvid = crow formula tends to work.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Gee D wrote: »
    Cows do behave like that from time to time, a protest against milking conditions.

    I now have in my head a fabulous poem (turned into a song by American composer Samuel Barber) called "A Green Lowland of Pianos".

    Text here: https://www.oxfordlieder.co.uk/song/4748
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    This raven information is useful.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Orfeo thanks, a new discovery for us and we liked it.
  • MarthaMartha Shipmate
    A Shadow Above by Joe Shute is a good book about ravens. It explores some of the mythology and history, and he visits nests and meets a lady who keeps them.
  • They don't so much fly as plummet.

    Cows can be catapulted...
    :wink:

  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    A murder of crows I'd use, but I've never seen one - crows are usually solitary.
    David used to reckon that the way to tell the difference between rooks and crows was that if there were several, they were rooks, and if there was only one it was a crow.
  • Wrong.
  • Piglet wrote: »
    A murder of crows I'd use, but I've never seen one - crows are usually solitary.
    David used to reckon that the way to tell the difference between rooks and crows was that if there were several, they were rooks, and if there was only one it was a crow.

    Apparently rooks are European and Asian, not in the Americas. All are in the same family of birds: https://www.animalwised.com/differences-between-crows-ravens-and-rooks-1196.html
  • Rooks if you see them properly, have grey beaks and are smaller than crows, which are completely black, until you get into hoodie country.
  • What is "hoodie country"?
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    Crows come in "murders" in SoCal. We sometimes get groups of a dozen or more to cool off in our sprinklers. And they work in concert to protect their territories. You should see them roughing up a red tailed hawk!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    What is "hoodie country"?

    Thanks for asking. I don't know either, but I was afraid to ask.
  • Enoch wrote: »

    On mainland Britain, Hoodies are mostly north and west of the Great Glen. The crows in Wales are black ones, as they are in England and southern Scotland. The crows in Ireland and on the Isle of Man are usually Hoodies. Hoodies and Carrion Crows are different versions of the same species and hybridise

    Hoodies - Hooded crow (wikipedia)
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Having not seen any crows in years, there were two on the lawn this evening.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Wet Kipper wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »

    On mainland Britain, Hoodies are mostly north and west of the Great Glen. The crows in Wales are black ones, as they are in England and southern Scotland. The crows in Ireland and on the Isle of Man are usually Hoodies. Hoodies and Carrion Crows are different versions of the same species and hybridise

    Hoodies - Hooded crow (wikipedia)

    Not allowed in certain shopping centres.
  • Uncle on the crow tangent.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Lyda wrote: »
    Crows come in "murders" in SoCal. We sometimes get groups of a dozen or more to cool off in our sprinklers. And they work in concert to protect their territories. You should see them roughing up a red tailed hawk!
    Yebbut, @Lyda do people commonly refer to them as grouped in "murders" in ordinary speech in SoCal? That's the real question here. What would be the normal word a local person would use to describe them in a group?

  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    Nah. They are just a bunch of crows. Hawks would probably call them a murder, though. :wink:
  • We saw a dozen deer grazing in the middle of a wheat field while we were out walking last night and did describe them as a proper herd.

    One of the words for quantity that's lapsed and could be the origin of the use of bunch is bushel
  • But bushel is a volume measurement for thing like peas.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    But bushel is a volume measurement for thing like peas.
    Quite. When I was a child, it was in one of the tables that were printed on the back of exercise books.

    @Curiosity killed that's quite interesting. Do you know which sort of deer? Round here, the ones you're very likely to see in fields are Roe Deer, but not usually as many as a dozen together. They're quite small and more usually in groups of 2-5. But in different parts of the country, different species seem to be more prevalent.

  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    I've spotted two differences recently.

    Moot. In the UK it means "debatable", in the USA "irrelevant". On this occasion I'm guessing the UK version is the original meaning, as I can see the change going in that direction more easily than the other.

    Quotation marks. In the UK if someone is speaking for more than one paragraph, each new paragraph begins with quotation marks. In the USA these seem to be omitted (which looks really weird to me, but I'm presuming is correct).
  • We get fallow and muntjac deer hereabouts. These were fallow (link to British Deer Society site), like the picture at the top of the page linked, not much in the way of antlers to be seen, but that's the time of year. One of the group was very dark, melanistic, and stood out in the herd. But apparently those dark variants are common locally and there is a deer sanctuary to conserve them. One of the joys of cycling home from work in the dark was occasionally coming across a herd of deer wanting to cross a road on my path, becoming aware of the gleam of many eyes and the sound of breathing next to my ear, rustling in the hedge as I moved past.

    I do see and hear muntjac (link to information), but I have never seen more than one.

    I used to live in Dorset and regularly saw (and ate) roe deer there, but haven't seen any consciously around here, although they are supposed to be countrywide.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    I've spotted two differences recently.

    Moot. In the UK it means "debatable", in the USA "irrelevant". On this occasion I'm guessing the UK version is the original meaning, as I can see the change going in that direction more easily than the other.

    Quotation marks. In the UK if someone is speaking for more than one paragraph, each new paragraph begins with quotation marks. In the USA these seem to be omitted (which looks really weird to me, but I'm presuming is correct).

    Moot was originally an assembly held for debate or a mock trial of an issue or person. Both meanings derive from that.

    Personally, in my idiolect, I would distinguish ‘moot’=debatable from ‘merely/purely moot’=having no practical implications.
  • Moot. In the UK it means "debatable", in the USA "irrelevant". On this occasion I'm guessing the UK version is the original meaning, as I can see the change going in that direction more easily than the other.
    Not quite “irrelevant.” More like “having lost any practical significance it may have had.” If a question or issue is or has become “moot,” it means that the answer has somehow been rendered unnecessary except as a purely speculative matter. So the question of whether younger child can have more pie becomes moot if it turns out older child has already finished the pie. We can debate it or argue about it, but the resolution of that debate only has abstract significance because the pie is gone. At least, that’s how lawyers use it.

    The older sense of “argue” or “debate” survives in terms like “moot the issue” or “moot court.”

    Quotation marks. In the UK if someone is speaking for more than one paragraph, each new paragraph begins with quotation marks. In the USA these seem to be omitted (which looks really weird to me, but I'm presuming is correct).
    I never see quotation marks at the beginning of each new paragraph omitted, at least not that I can recall. I was taught that for multi-paragraph quotes, quotation marks should be used at the beginning of each paragraph, but only at the end of the last paragraph.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Quotation marks. In the UK if someone is speaking for more than one paragraph, each new paragraph begins with quotation marks. In the USA these seem to be omitted (which looks really weird to me, but I'm presuming is correct).

    That used be the practice here, at least in a fairly formal document. I can't remember the last time I saw it done, certainly not yesterday.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    @Nick Tamen: "I never see quotation marks at the beginning of each new paragraph omitted, at least not that I can recall. I was taught that for multi-paragraph quotes, quotation marks should be used at the beginning of each paragraph, but only at the end of the last paragraph."

    One of my reasons for raising this is that I've seen it a lot, but only in bad fiction. So it could easily be incorrect by American standards too.

    @Gee D, without knowing where "here" is for you, your comment doesn't help me much, I'm afraid.
  • SparrowSparrow Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    But bushel is a volume measurement for thing like peas.
    Quite. When I was a child, it was in one of the tables that were printed on the back of exercise books.

    I remember those tables! They had all the old distance measurements like rod, pole and perch, and furlong. Which is still used of course in horse racing.


  • SparrowSparrow Shipmate
    They don't so much fly as plummet.

    That's sheep isn't it?
  • In American usage, you do use " marks at the beginning of each new paragraph of the same person's long speech. The final paragraph also ends with ".

    However (and this is a big however, that might have caused what you saw), if the whole quotation is being treated as a block quote by the publisher, it gets no "" whatsoever. The extra-wide indentation and occasional extra treatment (different font, different spacing, colored background, whatever) are considered enough to let you know that the whole thing is a continuation of that person's speech. This also applies to quoted material from another written source.

    The cut-off point for where we treat something as a block quote (as opposed to using "" and no special treatment) is usually about 5 lines of text, though each publisher will have its own guidelines. On rare occasions you'll have a single block quote treatment for a whole bunch of mini-quotations in a row, such as 7 short Bible verses, or 10 short survey responses from different people.

    I don't think I've ever seen block quotes used in fiction. They are usually in nonfiction, especially of the sociological or "let's quote the Bible" type. It's a publisher's choice thing, what we call "house style."
  • Sparrow wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    But bushel is a volume measurement for thing like peas.
    Quite. When I was a child, it was in one of the tables that were printed on the back of exercise books.

    I remember those tables! They had all the old distance measurements like rod, pole and perch, and furlong. Which is still used of course in horse racing.

    I had to learn them all and to do sums using them. This was not normal, it was my headteacher/class teacher giving me extension work, as decimalisation came in and although we did learn to use and manipulate sums in £sd, it was known it wasn't going to be around for much longer. Also all the times tables to 20x which were far more useful and of which I retain far more.

    Allotments are measured in rods, which if I remember correctly are the same length as a pole or perch. And cricket pitches are measured in chains. (I had to go and check to find that a rod is 16½ ft and a chain is 22ft). I do remember 8 furlongs to a mile and a nice round number of chains (30) to a furlong. So I don't bother remembering the number of yards to a furlong, just divide from a mile. I have lost all volume measures in the mists of time.

    This little mnemonic is less useful than it once was:
    1760 yards to a mile, George the Third said with a smile
    his reign being from 1760 to 1820
  • One of the words for quantity that's lapsed and could be the origin of the use of bunch is bushel

    A colleague was telling me only the other day how many bushels of apples he usually gets from his trees. A pick-your-own apple orchard near us sells apples by the peck.
  • @Gee D, without knowing where "here" is for you, your comment doesn't help me much, I'm afraid.
    @Gee D is in Australia. (Sydney, I think.)

  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Many thanks @Lamb Chopped for your information, which I'm not going to quote again. What I've seen is characters in novels talking for several paragraphs, without quotation marks or any of the other details you describe. However, these are badly written novels, and I'm reading them on Kindle. I suspect the former is more relevant than the latter. (The last time I saw this, the same book used "of" rather than "have".)
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    @Curiosity killed chains were actual chains, of a standard length, divided into links of a standard size. They were not just used for measuring. It was also possible to mark out right angles, as for a football pitch, with them.

  • @Curiosity killed there are 10 chains to a furling, 80 to a mile (1 chain = 22 yards, 1,760 yards = mile).
  • That's what I had in my head, but it wasn't what I found when I looked it up. That those were reasonably logical and linked together.

    And then you add nautical miles and fathoms - and fathoms are measured on a weighted knotted rope, because that one I've done, checking how much water we had under us on a falling tide.
  • Yes, testing for depth is where we get the expression swinging the lead.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    @Gee D, without knowing where "here" is for you, your comment doesn't help me much, I'm afraid.
    @Gee D is in Australia. (Sydney, I think.)

    Thanks - yes to both
  • Many thanks @Lamb Chopped for your information, which I'm not going to quote again. What I've seen is characters in novels talking for several paragraphs, without quotation marks or any of the other details you describe. However, these are badly written novels, and I'm reading them on Kindle. I suspect the former is more relevant than the latter. (The last time I saw this, the same book used "of" rather than "have".)

    I suspect you are right, and the books are simply bad. Nowadays you can self-publish almost anything to Kindle, and many people do--without the least attempt at editing or proofreading. Sucky sucky sucky.

    But there are also a number of books which come out of traditional publishing and still use no quotation marks for anything--long quote, short quote, internal mental voice, nothing. I think they think they're being avant-garde. I believe they're being pains in the butt.
  • But there are also a number of books which come out of traditional publishing and still use no quotation marks for anything--long quote, short quote, internal mental voice, nothing. I think they think they're being avant-garde. I believe they're being pains in the butt.
    Wasn’t Cry, the Beloved Country written that way, with no quotation marks?

  • I've spotted two differences recently.

    Moot. In the UK it means "debatable", in the USA "irrelevant". On this occasion I'm guessing the UK version is the original meaning, as I can see the change going in that direction more easily than the other.

    Quotation marks. In the UK if someone is speaking for more than one paragraph, each new paragraph begins with quotation marks. In the USA these seem to be omitted (which looks really weird to me, but I'm presuming is correct).

    I've never seen what you refer to as the American method. Every paragraph starts with quotes but doesn't end so. That's all I've ever seen from authors British or American or whatever.
  • Yes, testing for depth is where we get the expression swinging the lead.

    I was today years old when I first heard that expression.

    Sounding for depth is where we get the expression "plumbing the depths."
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Yes, testing for depth is where we get the expression swinging the lead.

    I was today years old when I first heard that expression.

    Sounding for depth is where we get the expression "plumbing the depths."
    Yes, “swinging the lead” was a new one to me as well.

  • Sounding for depth is also where Samuel Langhorne Clemens got the name "Mark Twain."
  • The weight at the bottom is called a lead, and you have to swing it. Not something I've done, but that weight also has a hollow that can be filled with soft wax that can be used to check the underwater bed - it will pick up sand, mud, etc. That bit is a possible derivation of plumbing the depths with the plumb line.

    Swinging the lead means trying it on, being a bit of a chancer. I knew the expression but haven't used or heard it for years, but it was definitely around in the not so distant past. I'm hearing it in a London accent in my memory.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    I thought it was that one had got oneself the easy job, while everyone else was hauling on the bowline, or up the rigging, or whatever else energetic was going on.
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