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Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    "Steak frites" is a pretty common menu item in Canada. The "frites" are always the slim French variety. I've noticed in the UK some places will give you the choice of frites or chips (the larger, wedge-type) with your steak. One pub gave me the choice of frites or "proper chips". I inferred their feelings on Brexit.

    Never seen them described as frites in all my years living here. Fries yes, frites no.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    orfeo wrote: »
    Nope, scone is pronounced s-con with a short o around here, although I know people who say sc-own.

    I suggest you re-read what was said about the difference between a scone and Scone.

    Let's not resurrect the Scone Wars. We need to agree that the word is pronounced differently.

    (But it's "scon" - "scown" is just pretentious)

    And again, the whole point was that there's a town called Scone, which is not edible.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    EDIT: We do a similar thing with "chips". Only in that case we use it to mean 2 completely different things, one in common with Brits and the other in common with Americans.

    Americans will use "chips" to mean pommes frites when in context of a dish containing fried fish: fish and chips. Some restaurants have alternative versions which will keep the word, such as clam and chips or shrimp and chips. Once you leave that context, and especially if preceded with the word "potato", "chips" refers to what the Brits call "crisps".

    We use chips for all of that, all the time. British crisps are chips. Pommes frites are chips. They become (French) fries at McDonald's and that's about it.

    Brits have chips and crisps. Americans have pommes frites and chips. But Australians decided to have chips and chips.

    Actually only effete snobs say "pommes frites". Primarily we have chips and fries.

    Well if you want to call yourself an effete snob... I only used the term because you did.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2021
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Here's one

    If GH can stand for P as in HICCOUGH;
    If OUGH can stand for O as in DOUGH;
    If PHTH can stand for T and in PHTISIS;
    If EIGH can stand for A as in NEIGHBOR;
    If TTE can stand for T as in GAZETTE;
    If EAU can stand for O as in PLATEAU,

    Then the correct way to spell POTATO is

    GHOUGHPHTHEIGHTTEEAU.

    These things (like spelling fish 'ghoti') always ignore that English spellling only allows these values for these graphs in certain positions in a word.

    And also that a great deal of the supposed craziness of English spelling can be explained by a combination of recognising what other language a word came from and actual changes in the way a word is pronounced.

    The whole proposition in that meme that a letter combination can 'stand for' a sound covers this over. The fact is that in a lot of cases the people who originally spelled the word in that way had absolutely no intention of representing the sound we now use. They were representing a completely different sound, or representing more than one sound because later generations dropped one out.

    Or were copying the sound system of a completely different language. The "eau" is plateau has nothing to do with English spelling conventions, it's a French spelling convention (which itself has to deal with the huge changes in French pronunciation over the centuries) that we didn't get around to anglicizing. "Phthisis" comes from Greek (and in any case is a word that can be pronounced 2 different ways).

    "Hiccough" is a folk etymology spelling that has replaced the perfectly sensible "hiccup" in some circles because people wrongly believed there was a connection with "cough". It's a mistake, pure and simple. And then people who have adopted the mistake and taken on a spelling because it looked fancy then turn around and say "how silly to spell a 'P' sound that way". Yes, it is silly. So why did you do it? You have a more rational and more traditional spelling available to you, so use it.
  • I have seen steak frites on several menus in California over the years. They always seemed to be slim french fries. They had always accompanied the main course and were not a separate item.
  • And then the government insist on teaching reading through phonics. I got out just in time. I had to have the posters on the wall, but was not required to use them in actual teaching - that was for the younger children.
    We were supposed to use the letter sounds in a particular way I couldn't get my head round. Or, more to the point, my tongue, teeth and larynx, either.
    So - A is not ay, B is not bee, but should be said so it isn't b(uh), either. One child had some interesting spelling with omitted vowels, because he had sounded out words using that breath from the consonant. I'm trying to recall the particular word which made this clear, but can't.
    Looking through the above, I come across "bkoz" as a possible in his way. Get away from very basic words, and all that tangle of historical sound changes and imported adoptions into English renders phonics a mess.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    FWIW: Phonics works very well for some people--like me. That was the main teaching method when I was growing up.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited January 2021
    Golden Key wrote: »
    FWIW: Phonics works very well for some people--like me. That was the main teaching method when I was growing up.

    Me too. My mother on the other hand couldn't split words into sounds at all.

    Most Modern English orthography is Middle English spelled by scribes using Old French Norman dialect spelling conventions as best they could.

    On top of that we have a habit of borrowing words without changing their spelling so bring in foreign conventions just for those words.

    But I wouldn't describe English spelling as a mess - it's a lot more regular than people think it is because they're not taught all the rules, or partial rules. The much maligned 'i before e except after c' rule works very well if you remember that the full rule adds "when it says 'ee'"

    Generally it's easier to guess the pronunciation from the spelling than the other way round.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2021
    i before e is rubbish, because there just as many words that are the other way around. I think someone just liked rhyming.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Has ‘momentarily’ been mentioned yet?

    Here in the U.K. it means for a very short time. In the US it seems to mean ‘soon’ - and it confuses me every time I watch CNN!
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    i before e is rubbish, because there just as many words that are the other way around. I think someone just liked rhyming.

    "I before E
    Except after C
    When it says 'Ee'"

    Generally holds.
  • I used an amazing online program* that taught phonics, reading and spelling. It included lessons on Greek and Latin prefixes and suffixes and how the more scientific words build up, plus the more complicated phonic sounds, like ough. It really brought the reading on for poor readers, often by several years in a year, by systematic teaching and lots of practice. It also helped some of the severely dyslexic students improve their reading significantly - a 15 year old with a reading age of 6 years improved to around 8 years, which is a lot more functional.

    Having worked in a mainstream secondary when the school was part of a research project teaching poor readers phonics when they arrived in secondary school, it helped a significant number of those students. It stopped working after phonics became compulsory in primary school and remedial reading went back to using a mixture of teaching methods.

    Phonics is only one tool in learning to read, but if the children aren't taught them they are not being given an important tool to decode text.

    * Lexia if anyone is interested
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    "Steak frites" is a pretty common menu item in Canada. The "frites" are always the slim French variety. I've noticed in the UK some places will give you the choice of frites or chips (the larger, wedge-type) with your steak. One pub gave me the choice of frites or "proper chips". I inferred their feelings on Brexit.

    Never seen them described as frites in all my years living here. Fries yes, frites no.

    Never seen frites in any form except on a menu in French in Canada.

    "frenching" means in cooking, to cut things up in particular ways. Like english means to put a spin on a ball.
  • I think the problem I faced was that we weren't given any training, and it sounds as if doing it in primary may have been a problem if it stopped working in secondary. The other thing I was concerned about was that no other method was acceptable. It limited the reading that could be offered. My remedial component went off to do it in small groups. Most of mine were already reading.
  • Like english means to put a spin on a ball.
    Huh? Never of heard that before!
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    i before e is rubbish, because there just as many words that are the other way around. I think someone just liked rhyming.

    "I before E
    Except after C
    When it says 'Ee'"

    Generally holds.
    I learned it as:

    I before E,
    Except after C,
    Or when it says A
    As in “neighbor” or “weigh.”

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    "Steak frites" is a pretty common menu item in Canada. The "frites" are always the slim French variety. I've noticed in the UK some places will give you the choice of frites or chips (the larger, wedge-type) with your steak. One pub gave me the choice of frites or "proper chips". I inferred their feelings on Brexit.

    Never seen them described as frites in all my years living here. Fries yes, frites no.

    Never seen frites in any form except on a menu in French in Canada.

    "frenching" means in cooking, to cut things up in particular ways. Like english means to put a spin on a ball.

    Not seen "frites" in English? Visit Toronto. Visit Vancouver. Visit Calgary.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    "Steak frites" is a pretty common menu item in Canada. The "frites" are always the slim French variety. I've noticed in the UK some places will give you the choice of frites or chips (the larger, wedge-type) with your steak. One pub gave me the choice of frites or "proper chips". I inferred their feelings on Brexit.

    Never seen them described as frites in all my years living here. Fries yes, frites no.

    Never seen frites in any form except on a menu in French in Canada.

    "frenching" means in cooking, to cut things up in particular ways. Like english means to put a spin on a ball.

    Not seen "frites" in English? Visit Toronto. Visit Vancouver. Visit Calgary.

    I have been to all of those. Probably I'm not going to the classy places.
  • Every once in a while, when we Americans are upset with the French, we will change the name to American Fries.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Or "Freedom Fries".
    :eyeroll:
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Every once in a while, when we Americans are upset with the French, we will change the name to American Fries.
    I think you’ll need to qualify “we.” I remember when the House and/or Senate dining room did that, and maybe the White House, but I never encountered an average person who went along with such short-lived nonsense.

  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Steak frites is for when a place is trying to sound French or Belgian.
  • I can never remember wierd - oops again, weird.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Every once in a while, when we Americans are upset with the French, we will change the name to American Fries.

    Torture Fries anyone?
    Like english means to put a spin on a ball.
    Huh? Never of heard that before!

    "He put some english on that ball." means it really hooked (strongly curved). If it was "he put some f---ing english on it" the speaker could also add "pardon my french". --hope this isn't greek to you.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited January 2021
    orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    EDIT: We do a similar thing with "chips". Only in that case we use it to mean 2 completely different things, one in common with Brits and the other in common with Americans.

    Americans will use "chips" to mean pommes frites when in context of a dish containing fried fish: fish and chips. Some restaurants have alternative versions which will keep the word, such as clam and chips or shrimp and chips. Once you leave that context, and especially if preceded with the word "potato", "chips" refers to what the Brits call "crisps".

    We use chips for all of that, all the time. British crisps are chips. Pommes frites are chips. They become (French) fries at McDonald's and that's about it.

    Brits have chips and crisps. Americans have pommes frites and chips. But Australians decided to have chips and chips.

    Actually only effete snobs say "pommes frites". Primarily we have chips and fries.

    Well if you want to call yourself an effete snob... I only used the term because you did.

    I was using it to indicate precisely exactly what I meant in a technical discussion about uses of words. I used it as definiens not definiendum. And in using it, I pointed out most clearly that we call them FRIES.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    i before e is rubbish, because there just as many words that are the other way around. I think someone just liked rhyming.

    "I before E
    Except after C
    When it says 'Ee'"

    Generally holds.
    I learned it as:

    I before E,
    Except after C,
    Or when it says A
    As in “neighbor” or “weigh.”

    That's the version I learned as well. The problem with "when it says ee" is that many words that don't say "ee" in Blighty do say "ee" in North America, such as "leisure".
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Every once in a while, when we Americans are upset with the French, we will change the name to American Fries.

    Torture Fries anyone?
    Like english means to put a spin on a ball.
    Huh? Never of heard that before!

    "He put some english on that ball." means it really hooked (strongly curved). If it was "he put some f---ing english on it" the speaker could also add "pardon my french". --hope this isn't greek to you.

    The context in which I've most heard "English" meaning "spin" is billiards/pool.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Every once in a while, when we Americans are upset with the French, we will change the name to American Fries.

    Torture Fries anyone?
    Like english means to put a spin on a ball.
    Huh? Never of heard that before!

    "He put some english on that ball." means it really hooked (strongly curved). If it was "he put some f---ing english on it" the speaker could also add "pardon my french". --hope this isn't greek to you.

    Nah! You're ****ing making that up!
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    KarlLB wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    i before e is rubbish, because there just as many words that are the other way around. I think someone just liked rhyming.

    "I before E
    Except after C
    When it says 'Ee'"

    Generally holds.

    When what says 'Ee'?
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2021
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    EDIT: We do a similar thing with "chips". Only in that case we use it to mean 2 completely different things, one in common with Brits and the other in common with Americans.

    Americans will use "chips" to mean pommes frites when in context of a dish containing fried fish: fish and chips. Some restaurants have alternative versions which will keep the word, such as clam and chips or shrimp and chips. Once you leave that context, and especially if preceded with the word "potato", "chips" refers to what the Brits call "crisps".

    We use chips for all of that, all the time. British crisps are chips. Pommes frites are chips. They become (French) fries at McDonald's and that's about it.

    Brits have chips and crisps. Americans have pommes frites and chips. But Australians decided to have chips and chips.

    Actually only effete snobs say "pommes frites". Primarily we have chips and fries.

    Well if you want to call yourself an effete snob... I only used the term because you did.

    I was using it to indicate precisely exactly what I meant in a technical discussion about uses of words. I used it as definiens not definiendum. And in using it, I pointed out most clearly that we call them FRIES.

    No, you didn't. Look at the nested quotes. The word "FRIES" did not appear once when you talked about pommes frites. I'm not psychic.

    Frankly I thought that fries was what Americans called them. And then you talked about pommes frites, without mentioning fries, and I literally thought "oh okay, I was mistaken for at least some regions of America". Apparently what I should have thought is "damn, my ability to psychically read words that aren't there is on the blink again".
  • I'll try to lower the grade level in future.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited January 2021
    mousethief wrote: »
    I'll try to lower the grade level in future.

    Why are you always like this?

    You used the term "pommes frites". You did not use the term "fries" so the notion that in using pommes frites you "pointed out most clearly" that it wasn't a term you used is nonsense. You only cleared that up later.

    The end. The record is there for everyone to see, so stop inventing alternative facts where it's my fault for not reading things you never actually wrote. Take some responsibility for your mistake instead of suggesting that I'm stupid.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate

    "frenching" means in cooking, to cut things up in particular ways. Like english means to put a spin on a ball.

    Whereas "frenchie" is something entirely different.
  • Are there other nationalities that have become verbs or adverbs?

    "Wow, I really canadianed that elephant seal!"
    "Have you germaned the cooker yet?"
  • A long shot and could annoy the Scots among us: “ We scotched his little plan”
  • Well, there are cousins german.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    i before e is rubbish, because there just as many words that are the other way around. I think someone just liked rhyming.

    "I before E
    Except after C
    When it says 'Ee'"

    Generally holds.
    I learned it as:

    I before E,
    Except after C,
    Or when it says A
    As in “neighbor” or “weigh.”
    The version I know (with my own punctuation, to clarify it):

    I before E--
    Except after C,
    Or when sounded as A
    In "neighbor" and "weigh".
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited January 2021
    Sojourner wrote: »
    A long shot and could annoy the Scots among us: “ We scotched his little plan”

    Don't you welch out on us now.

    Plenty of countries show up as nouns and adjectives to mean something, but verbs are rarer.

  • Are there other nationalities that have become verbs or adverbs?

    "Wow, I really canadianed that elephant seal!"
    "Have you germaned the cooker yet?"

    Don't think those work. Though dutch treat was a thing: on a date, both of you pay for your own versus over paying the bill. I haven't heard this for a while.

    Re seals, I think the elephant variety are in the south somewhere. In Canada we no longer club baby seals, we wait until they're older.
  • Are there other nationalities that have become verbs or adverbs?

    "Wow, I really canadianed that elephant seal!"
    "Have you germaned the cooker yet?"

    Don't think those work. Though dutch treat was a thing: on a date, both of you pay for your own versus over paying the bill. I haven't heard this for a while.

    Re seals, I think the elephant variety are in the south somewhere. In Canada we no longer club baby seals, we wait until they're older.

    The Dutch manage to get a few different references:

    Going dutch
    Speaking double dutch
    Dutch courage

    Apparently, they all arise from the time when England and Holland were rival naval powers. As usual, the English found numerous ways to insult their enemies.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Why are you always like this?

    Please stop.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    There's also the "double-dutch" method of jumping rope. AFAIK, there's no insult there, unless--because it's difficult to do successfully--maybe someone said that only the Dutch would come up with it, or some such.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    i before e is rubbish, because there just as many words that are the other way around. I think someone just liked rhyming.

    "I before E
    Except after C
    When it says 'Ee'"

    Generally holds.

    When what says 'Ee'?

    The ei/ie digraph.
  • I had a neighbour called Welch. And she did.
    And I had an insight into the double-dutch expression once on Dover Priory railway station. We used, on occasion, to have parties of travellers heading for the harbour, all from one background, and it gave the whole station a "foreign" sound, quite disorientating. So a party of Americans might make me feel as if I were on the set of Oklahoma, or waiting for the Aichison, Topeka and the Santa Fe. Or French might recall Paris.
    One day I got off the train and there was a waiting party busily chatting away, and sounding English. Until I got among them, and found, definitely disorientatingly, that I could not understand a word. They were not speaking English, but were speaking Dutch, with an intonation that matched English. And I decided that that discombobulation of expecting to understand and then not doing so might have led to that expression.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    [Helpful Hostly interjection]
    Throwing out a reminder here that we are discussing how the English language contains differences depending on where the words are spoken or heard. This is not a thread for fightin' words.

    Please refrain from sniping at each other.

    Thank you.

    [jedijudy-helpful Heaven Host]
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    I always think the ‘music’ of Dutch resembles UK east coast accents north and south of the border.
  • When in the USA, don't ever ask someone if you can borrow a rubber.
  • Sojourner wrote: »
    A long shot and could annoy the Scots among us: “ We scotched his little plan”

    Don't you welch out on us now.

    And we Welsh get pretty upset when that is used as a pejorative term.
  • Is "American" or "Yankee" or equiv. ever used as an insulting verb in other countries? If so what does it mean?
  • Sorry.
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