Museums that have collected things from other cultures
Burgess
Shipmate Posts: 49
in Epiphanies
Ok so thanks to my kid (he is a computer guy in IT for his job) for getting me where this come from, and getting this all organized. Hope you like it.
The reason I starting this topic is from here: https://forums.shipoffools.com/discussion/comment/735905/#Comment_735905
And this is what it says
Wanted to start it because of this: https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/piapot-repatriation-manitoba-museum-1.7630588 which is about a museum returning. It said this ""We ... understand the role of museums in harms of the past and the role of museums in housing the belongings of nations, some of which were acquired under duress, economic strain or under pressure,"
Some things were looted, some were given but in the way that it is hard not to give, like I give a police a commoration pin one time because he stopped me and wanted that. If people from here like me and other colony places like here had taken Euro country things no matter how important those things are to culture now and said they were gonna keep them, think that would be a problem eh. If the things would have been destroyed if museums did not save them is bossy. Why do museums people and colonists think they had the rights to take and preserve things that don't belong to them? Things that aren't your's you should give back when your asked to. Remember around is world of the wars and how people got starved, slaved, racism, and now keeping our stuff. It ain't good.
The reason I starting this topic is from here: https://forums.shipoffools.com/discussion/comment/735905/#Comment_735905
And this is what it says
This thread seems to be turning into a serious discussion. As such it should really go into Epiphanies.
If somebody would like to start a thread there please do.
Dafyd Hell Host
Wanted to start it because of this: https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/piapot-repatriation-manitoba-museum-1.7630588 which is about a museum returning. It said this ""We ... understand the role of museums in harms of the past and the role of museums in housing the belongings of nations, some of which were acquired under duress, economic strain or under pressure,"
Some things were looted, some were given but in the way that it is hard not to give, like I give a police a commoration pin one time because he stopped me and wanted that. If people from here like me and other colony places like here had taken Euro country things no matter how important those things are to culture now and said they were gonna keep them, think that would be a problem eh. If the things would have been destroyed if museums did not save them is bossy. Why do museums people and colonists think they had the rights to take and preserve things that don't belong to them? Things that aren't your's you should give back when your asked to. Remember around is world of the wars and how people got starved, slaved, racism, and now keeping our stuff. It ain't good.
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I am a Pakeha (non Maori) so can't really speak for the families of those who were welcoming back their whanau (family) but the importance of the ceremony to the participants was obvious, even to an outsider just watching it on TV.
I think after the ceremony they were taken back to their ancestral grounds -their turangawaewae (which literally means their place to stand).
(this was how I saw it as an outsider with only a limited understanding despite the explanations that were given to the viewers.)
Did we discuss human remains before? I feel like we did. For me, human remains on display are never acceptable.
I believe we did, and I think I noted having recently visited the Jorvik Viking Centre where skeletons of two individuals are part of the exhibit. It didn't feel "wrong" to me, but I don't know if that is me being insensitive or whether context matters:
- the skeletons are displayed a matter of metres from where they were discovered; they have neither been sold nor stolen.
- the museum's curators and staff are largely locals, largely the descendants of the community from which the two came.
- the whole museum is dedicated to explaining the place and culture of those two individuals, and the skeletons are there as part of that, not used as exotic exhibits among a largely random collection.
- they are exhibited respectfully, surrounded by explanations of what has been learned from them of their lives and deaths. Their names might not be known but they are there as people, not merely something to gawp at.
Now I can understand if any such display is considered beyond the pale, but I do see a qualitative difference between this and sailing off with nameless heads from a culture on the other side of the world and putting them on show purely for the spectacle.
AFF
For more modern saints, such as St Carlo Acutis, it's easy to trace at least a general acceptance of the practice of venerating the relics of saints to the person in question, so you can at least assume their consent.
For ancient saints, I think you can reasonably assume consent on similar lines.
And if the saint in question was comfortable (or could reasonably be assumed to have been comfortable) with the idea of their body parts being venerated, then I don't see that anyone else has standing to say much about it.
An interesting example of historic treasures being looted from Europe is the so-called Treasure of Priam. This was a collection of gold (and other) objects originally looted from what was then the Ottoman Empire by Heinrich Schliemann in 1873-1879 and taken to Berlin. It was again looted in 1945 and ended up in the Hermitage Museum in Leningrad St. Petersburg. The Russians, of course, claim that their taking of the treasure wasn't looting but rather a war trophy. So if the gold is to be repatriated does it go back to Berlin or to Türkiye, the successor of the Ottoman Empire and site of excavation.
Well, those who go in for that would claim that it isn't 'corpse worship' but honouring and venerating the memory - in physical form - of the departed Saint or holy person.
Yes, it can look icky and as a convert to Orthodoxy from a Protestant background it takes some getting used to - although in fairness, I've not seen a lot of it since I became Orthodox.
If I lived in Greece or the Balkans then I might be more familiar with it as a regular occurrence.
We can have a very sanitised view of death. I've seen and kissed the corpses of dead relatives and of my late wife.
I've recited the Psalms alongside an open coffin during a vigil for the dead.
Our reactions to these things are culturally conditioned of course.
Is it wrong to put 'Otzi' the 'Ice Man' found in the Alps on show in a museum? I've seen him.
Is it wrong to have Tollund Man or Lindow Man exhibited? Or those preserved cadavers in Naples which atmospheric conditions have kept almost intact? Or the remains of the 'Crusaders' in a crypt beneath a Dublin church? I touched one's hand and said a prayer for him.
Context is everything and I think archaeological displays of human remains or the veneration of relics can be legitimate, but would issue some caveats about how these things should be done or presented.
These things can easily become crass, sensationalised or, as @Arethosemyfeet says, something to gawp at.
I notice that the ethnography section of The Pitt-Rivers Museum in Oxford no longer has displays of shrunken heads. I would concur with their decision not to display them.
There's a fine line between ghoulishness and serious ethnographic study or - in a religious context - forms of veneration.
Where we draw that line will be influenced by a whole range of cultural considerations and factors.
I visited Madagascar last year and was struck by how big a deal the Malagasy people - Christians as well as Animists - make of funerals, their ancestors and the burial of human remains. It's easy to decry these things as supposed 'Western' sophisticates but these visceral practices play an important role in many societies.
I've heard horror stories from Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox clergy here in the UK of bodies being summarily taken from hospitals and cremated with little or no consultation with relatives who may have wanted a different outcome.
Make yourself a funeral plan, people.