Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I don't think 'coeds' has ever been a normal expression here (UK) to describe a person, rather than an abbreviation for 'co-educational'.

    When I was growing up, most schools for children over 11 were boys or girls only. Universities by then weren't but accommodation wasn't normally mixed. What may surprise transatlantic shipmates is that 'segregated' and 'unsegregated' here was normal usage and assumed to refer to whether the sexes were mixed or segregated. I'd still normally assume that usage unless the reference was to a US or South African context.

  • Co-ed is used occasionally to something, usually an event or facility, combining both sexes. It implies younger agesdparticipants.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Brothers in Arms is one of my all-time favorite albums, and the title track is one of my all-time favorite songs. Given that The Wiki says it was the first album certified ten-times platinum in the UK (nine times in the US) and is the eighth-best-selling album in UK chart history and one of the top 30 best selling albums in the world, I have to assume I’m not alone in my appreciation for the album.

    But we digress from the topic of this thread.

    Well, plenty of people drink Foster's lager. That's no recommendation.

    Perhaps my aversion to that truly dreck album is that I had it inflicted on me by a housemate back in the day and never, ever, ever wanted to hear it again.

    But as you say, we digress and yes, there is no accounting for tastes.

    One man's fish is another man's poisson.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Co-ed is used in Canada to denote mixed sports teams. ex. Co-ed slopitch
  • Just a quickie ... Gamma Gamaliel detects a tendency to return to bad habits ... must ... re ... sist. Consequently he apologises for the Dire Straits digression, other than its reminder of the Ovaltinies jingle, whether in its original 1930s Radio Luxembourg form or its revamped jolly hockey-sticks 1950s English version.

    Let us remain Brothers in Arms and not fall out over albums, bestselling or otherwise.

    Peace be to all.

    Now, tartare sauce on anything but fish ... that's a different matter ... :)

    Has anyone made reference yet to Lord Cardigan and the 1840 'Black Bottle' incident in the officers' mess of the 11th Hussars?

    Not that I am challenging any Shipmates to a duel ...

    'Pistols at dawn!'
    'No, it's handguns at dawn ...'
    'You say to-mate-oh ...'
    'You say to-mart-oh ...'
    'Let's call the whole thing off ...'
    'Swords? Rapiers?'
    'You're on ...'
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited July 9
    Let us remain Brothers in Arms and not fall out over albums, bestselling or otherwise.

    Peace be to all.
    And also with you. :wink:

  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    I never liked that song and now it's stuck in my head. Thanks a lot.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    One man's fish is another man's poisson.

    One man's fish is another man's poisson/My favourite car is an Avions Voisin.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Going back to the term "Co-ed," a interesting app I use sometimes is Google Ngram which tracks the use of a word in literature. Coed seems to have been used in the mid 1600s and stays at a low level until the 1950s. It reached its peak in the early 2000s and then fell off dramatically.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Coed seems to have been used in the mid 1600s and stays at a low level until the 1950s. It reached its peak in the early 2000s and then fell off dramatically.

    If you search for "Coeds" instead, which probably isolates coed used as a noun, rather than an adjective, you don't get quite the same picture.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Looking in more detail at the Google results ‘Coed’ is a Welsh place name and accounts for many of the early entries, there was also a report of a hearing before a Select Committee in 1791 where ‘co-ed’ and ‘non co-ed’ are clearly used as verbs, although I don’t know what it meant - something to go with an election a Trinity College, Dublin. Later it appears frequently in listings of educational institutions which are described as ‘men’, ‘women’ or ‘coed’ where it is clearly simply an abbreviation for ‘coeducational’. Merriam Webster puts its first use for a female student in the late 1870s.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I have a College Omnibus in my office published in the US in 1936. One of the articles is "The Co-eds: God Bless 'em!"
  • We usually say "mixed" for coed/co-ed.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    We usually say "mixed" for coed/co-ed.

    Ah yes, I remember beginning my school career as a Mixed Infant.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited July 13
    To be honest, I'm still trying to wrap my head around mixed gender schools being sufficiently novel that you need a special word for them.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    To be honest, I'm still trying to wrap my head around mixed gender schools being sufficiently novel that you need a special word for them.

    Doesn't "school" mean "university" in this context?
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    KarlLB wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    To be honest, I'm still trying to wrap my head around mixed gender schools being sufficiently novel that you need a special word for them.

    Doesn't "school" mean "university" in this context?

    That would just make it weirder to me.
  • It never applied to schools in my world. Phys ed class perhaps. But mostly events or activities.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    During my lifetime, there were two single sex high schools in our city. One was still single sex when I was in high school; the other had gone co-ed in 1975.
  • FWIW, Walter Ong has an interesting theory of why and how schools went co-ed in his theories on orality and literacy, effects on the mind, etc. He says that there was a pretty universal belief that in order to learn Latin, you had to have it more or less beaten into you (physically, I mean)--and since Latin was the foundation of the whole educational experience, that meant beating people was a commonplace and necessary (in their eyes) experience, and apparently they didn't think that would mix with having gurrrrrrllls present (and beaten). Insert arguments about constitutions here...
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    When were women first admitted to Oxford as coequals to men?
  • Can't give those numbers off the top of my head for Oxford, but for Cambridge women were studying there in the late 1800s, but weren't awarded degrees until 1948. Checking, 7 October 1920 the first degrees were awarded. Similarily women had been studying there for some decades.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited July 13
    ]
    Can't give those numbers off the top of my head for Oxford, but for Cambridge women were studying there in the late 1800s, but weren't awarded degrees until 1948. Checking, 7 October 1920 the first degrees were awarded. Similarily women had been studying there for some decades.

    As @Curiosity killed says, the first women matriculated at Oxford, and were granted degrees, in October 1920. The women's colleges didn't receive royal charters until 1926 (Somerville was first, followed by LMH, St Hugh's and St Hilda's). In 1927, the maximum number of female students was capped at less than 25% of the number of male students. The quota was increased in 1948, but not abolished until 1957. The abolition of the quota was only symbolic, because the fact that there were only 5 women's colleges meant that there weren't enough places to meet the quota anyway.

    In 1959, women's colleges were granted full college status by the university. In 1974, the first men's colleges admitted women. In 1979, St. Anne's and LMH became the first women's colleges to admit men.

    The fraction of students that were women increased from around 20% in the mid-70s (when there were just 5 colleges open to women) to 40% by the early 80s, it rose to almost 50% in the early 2000s, but 2019 was the first year there were more female undergraduates than male.

    So it depends what @mousethief calls "equals" - you can make a case for the answer being any of 1920, 1926, or 1974, and perhaps for other dates as well.

    ETA: I think all Oxford Colleges are now mixed. The last male-only holdout was St Benet's Hall (technically a PPH rather than a college, but that's mostly semantics) which went mixed in 2016. St Hilda's was the last all-female college: they went mixed in 2008.
  • gustavagustava Shipmate Posts: 28
    Single sex high schools are still alive and well in New Zealand. My younger son attends a single sex high school where "brotherhood" is frequently and enthusiastically endorsed (brotherhood wouldn't have been seen as a positive at the co-ed high school his brother attended).
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Don’t get me wrong, single sex schools do exist here. It’s just that I would never think of them as the default such that a mixed school would need a special label. It’s a single sex school that would need to be labelled to indicate it wasn’t a ‘normal’ school.
  • gustavagustava Shipmate Posts: 28
    Oh okay. Still used for schools but just for schools here, can't think of it being used in other contexts.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    orfeo wrote: »
    Don’t get me wrong, single sex schools do exist here. It’s just that I would never think of them as the default such that a mixed school would need a special label. It’s a single sex school that would need to be labelled to indicate it wasn’t a ‘normal’ school.

    Times have changed. Speaking only of my State, until the mid- to late-50s, single sex public secondary schools were the norm in the Sydney, Newcastle and Wollongong areas, and perhaps outside those areas for schools going through to the Leaving Certificate rather than just the Intermediate. There was then a move to co-ed public schools, which continued on to the Leaving (and later Higher School) level.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    I have mentioned my crush on Hardy Kruger, as seen in the film "Bachelor of Hearts", 1958. When I recently watched it again, I was struck by the person who set the prank tasks for the idiotic student society showing his total disgust at the admission of women to Cambridge (as token of this he sent the men to invade Girton). It was referred to as a recent event. I see above it wasn't.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    FWIW, Walter Ong has an interesting theory of why and how schools went co-ed in his theories on orality and literacy, effects on the mind, etc. He says that there was a pretty universal belief that in order to learn Latin, you had to have it more or less beaten into you (physically, I mean)--and since Latin was the foundation of the whole educational experience, that meant beating people was a commonplace and necessary (in their eyes) experience, and apparently they didn't think that would mix with having gurrrrrrllls present (and beaten). Insert arguments about constitutions here...

    I'd say it's a pretty shitty teacher who can't teach a subject without beating people.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    That idea, though, goes back as far as Ancient Egypt. Where it did not apply to Latin, of course.
  • "The past is a different country; they do things differently there."
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Reminds me of a book I came across on Christian parenting entirely devoted to the application of the text “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: But he who loves him chasteneth him betimes.” How hard, how often, and with what.

    At least when my parents hit me, it wasn't out of religious belief - they just found me particularly annoying at the time.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    FWIW, Walter Ong has an interesting theory of why and how schools went co-ed in his theories on orality and literacy, effects on the mind, etc. He says that there was a pretty universal belief that in order to learn Latin, you had to have it more or less beaten into you (physically, I mean)--and since Latin was the foundation of the whole educational experience, that meant beating people was a commonplace and necessary (in their eyes) experience, and apparently they didn't think that would mix with having gurrrrrrllls present (and beaten). Insert arguments about constitutions here...

    I'd say it's a pretty shitty teacher who can't teach a subject without beating people.

    It's probably a different topic if it goes on: corporal punishment in schools. "The strap" was used in schools up until about 35 years ago in elementary schools here (K to grade 8), both the tax-payer funded public schools and Roman catholic sepatate schools. It could only be given by the vice principal or principal. If you were sent to the hallway from class more than 3 times in one week, the VP or P would collect the students and strap them before next class. I was a talker, and was frequently sent to the hall, sometimes not recalling how many times, so I developed the practice of simply leaving the school.

    In the private boys boarding school I went to when my parents were overseas, they delivered "swats". The student went to the front of the classroom, grasped knees with hands and was struck with a wooden paddle over the backside. Teachers could give up to 5 swats. If it was more than that the Headmaster had to be called. Swearing at a teacher was worth 10, talking in chapel weas 3 for example. Errors in writing down poetry memorization was one swat per error over 5 errors. A lost rticle could be retreived for 1 swat per thing in the lost+found. I was low on the receiving end for boys with 112 swats received in my first year.

    I guess didn't have other than shitty teachers I guess until university.
  • I was so relieved to find that I could raise my kid without spanking or slapping or any of that bullshit. I mean, he's a very good kid, and I only have experience of one, which makes it hard when we're discussing corporal punishment--but it just wasn't necessary. (Bar the loud swat on the poofy diaper at age 3 when he ran into the street with cars around--and that wasn't pain, that was surprise and noise.)
  • @Lamb Chopped Same here the only time I hit one of my children was when the older one was age 3 and he ran into the street. Thankfully no cars coming but they could have. I am not sure who was more surprised that he was swatted him or me.
  • We were never violent with our children. Once, I did stand fully clothed in a cold shower with a child-parasite-maniac once who was going completely nuts windmill punching and biting. I had no other ideas. We still talk about it 35 years later.
  • :lol:

    Yeah, the cold shower thing sounds about right. I think I've had occasions where I actually started mini-tantrumming back. It sort of freaks them out, and they stop. Sometimes.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    We were never violent with our children. Once, I did stand fully clothed in a cold shower with a child-parasite-maniac once who was going completely nuts windmill punching and biting. I had no other ideas. We still talk about it 35 years later.

    Was that your penance for having sired a monster?

  • Generally speaking, the penance for siring or bearing a monster is to raise the monster.

    Ask how I know. :wink:
  • The monster is finishing a PhD, and is a lovely human being. So is another who for about 8 months screamed. I would come home from work and walk for 6 hours wearing a baby on my chest carrier.
  • Ah, those were the days. My monster lived in the chest carrier,* except for when I got to lie down myself. Gave me some great muscles, I'll tell you that.

    * turned out to have a nasty case of acid reflux undiagnosed till 18 months. They scoped him and showed us the damage. Poor monster.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    @Lamb Chopped Same here the only time I hit one of my children was when the older one was age 3 and he ran into the street. Thankfully no cars coming but they could have. I am not sure who was more surprised that he was swatted him or me.

    Another swat for dashing across a road. I think I swatted out of relief they hadn't been run over and killed. The child was open-mouthed with shock and I burst into tears.😢

    @Lamb Chopped I once flung myself in the floor in a near-empty furniture department and yelled as one of the boys was doing: it worked, neither had a major tantrum ever again. 😯
  • Reading my American wife's grandmother's reminiscences today I was struck by her frequent use of 'boughten', as in a boughten rug that was bought in a store instead of being hand made at home. I haven't heard that word for a long time, and wonder if it is still much used? It sounds like one of the archaic English words that survived in the USA longer than in the UK.
  • I've never heard it live, but I recognize it. By the form, I'd say you're right. I suspect it slipped out of usage as we got to the point where most things were "boughten" rather than homemade.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I’ve never heard it either.
  • Store boughten bread. Common in rural Sask.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Store boughten bread. Common in rural Sask.

    Here we'd say store-bought bread. I don't know if I've ever seen "boughten" before.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Neither had we, but it sounds like a past participle.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Better to go down dignified
    With boughten friendship at your side
    Than none at all. Provide, provide!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Sorry, can't place that.
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