Ship of Fools: Quaker Meeting House, Painswick, England
The Mystery Worshipper
Shipmate
Ship of Fools: Quaker Meeting House, Painswick, England
Tea, biscuits, yellow roses – and a gathered silence
Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here
Comments
It seems a pity so many Friends are no longer specifically Christian. The Friends seem to be going to way of Unitarians as a group i.e. one that was once Christian but which has moved on. Though it is deeply unclear to me what either have moved on to. On the occasions when I have attended a Quaker meeting I have treated it as a Christian meditation session.
At the worldly level, lets hope that Friend's numbers hold up rather better than the Unitarian movement, which seems to be in a race with Methodism to be the fastest declining denomination in the UK.
I've always thought of Quakers as primarily a Christian body, perhaps of somewhat less orthodox views (if I can put it like that), so I'm a bit surprised to learn that this is maybe no longer so.
The impression I get from friends who are Quakers is that the vast majority of members self identify as Christian but it’s not a requirement for membership.
Enquiring minds need to know...
Er...wait a moment...
O dear me
No, I hadn't heard it, but thanks for the laugh...
"It said in your Koran, chap. xv. ‘God guideth not the unjust.’ And therefore the great and eternal God does not guide your people in these impieties. And you say the greatest part of the world are impious, because of the enormities of their crimes: but now look among your own subjects, and see if they are not the same for crimes, impieties, and enormities. And if Jesus the son of Mary, who confirms the ancient scriptures, be full of light, and of the gospel, to conduct the people the right way, with a confirmation of the old testament, and to guide and instruct the righteous, then certain your actions before mentioned at Algiers, and that way, does declare you not to be in this right way of light, and gospel of Jesus.
And again Mahomet said in your Koran, ‘Such as shall not judge conformable to the laws of God, are unjust:’ and these abominable impieties of yours are not conformable to the law of God, but lead you into the way of destruction, from the way of salvation, and, therefore, unjust.
And you say in your Koran, chap. v. ‘God loves the just:’ but he hates such unjust actions of yours. And in your Koran you write, 'that God punished the children of Israel that polluted the earth, and opposed the will of God,’ &c. and further you say, ‘He that slayeth an innocent person shall be punished as if he had slain the whole world; and he that shall give his life, shall be recompensed as if he had given life to the whole world.’ Now, has not your practice herein been contrary to your Koran, as in chap. v. p. 64, 65.
And do not you say ‘you gave them your curse, that altered the words of the scripture;’ and also said, ‘that God loves those who do good.’ chap. v. p. 65.
Now these bad actions of yours are contrary to the scriptures, and contrary to your Koran, and therefore how can God love you. And again you say, ‘Such as have the knowledge of the scriptures, ought to believe in Jesus before their death; for he shall be a witness against them of their actions in the day of judgment. Now, you Turks, consider how you do acknowledge the scriptures, and believe in Jesus, and in God, who show forth such abominable actions: and do not you think that Jesus the Messiah will be a witness against you at the day of judgment, for your impieties and your infidelity? and must not all such be cast into the lowest hell, and find no relief except they repent in their lifetime, and do good works meet for repentance, and resign yourselves to God, and obey his commandments; as to this effect you say in your Koran, chap. iv. p. 61."
We can all self identify ourselves as something but does that make us so by others' views and opinions?
Chapter 27 » 27.05
Friends and other faiths
The church [is] no other thing but the society, gathering or company of such as God hath called out of the world and worldly spirit to walk in his light and life… Under this church … are comprehended all, and as many, of whatsoever nation, kindred, tongue or people they be, though outwardly strangers and remote from those who profess Christ and Christianity in words and have the benefit of the Scriptures, as become obedient to the holy light and testimony of God in their hearts… There may be members therefore of this Catholic church both among heathens, Turks, Jews and all the several sorts of Christians, men and women of integrity and simplicity of heart, who … are by the secret touches of this holy light in their souls enlivened and quickened, thereby secretly united to God, and there-through become true members of this Catholic church.
Robert Barclay, 1678
Do the views of opinions and views of others determine who we are?
Well if I self identify as a poached egg the majority view might be more reliable.
The label "Christian" for example suggests a belief in a God who (according to the ancient creeds) created the world and is the sole means by which we can be saved. The latter is not necessarily held by many Quakers who nevertheless claim to be part of a Christian Church.
To me, the label 'Christian' implies that one is a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, however those teachings might be expressed!
Being 'kind or good-willed' is indeed part of being a follower of Jesus Christ, but, of course, those words could be applied to those of any religion (or none).
So a kind Muslim is a christian?
They might have a view on that, might see it as an insult ... as would a nice atheist or whatever.
So - you tell me what a Christian is and I will tell you if I am one.
Thanks for the report @Urganda. The first Quaker Meeting I took my husband to (in Whitby) gave us the flowers from the table too. I think it gave him an impression of Meeting that none of the others he attended lived up to.
Would that were true!