Kerygmania: And the Lord said unto Moses... via angels!!1! (Hebrews 2:2 et al)

EutychusEutychus Shipmate
edited January 2022 in Limbo
In one of those "I've read this more times than I can count but this is the first time it's hit me between the eyes" moments, I suddenly discover that Hebrews 2:2 says
the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment

And just before we put that down to the writer of the Hebrews being a bit iffy, we find Paul in Galatians 3:19 making it much clearer:
The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator

And if we want a third source, how about Stephen in Acts 7:53?
you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it

Hands up all those who would have asserted that the law was given by angels. Not me, anyway.

What on earth does this mean? Where did the idea spring from?

Comments

  • If angels are the messengers of God, revealed in whatever form is required as they deliver the message, the use of this language may simply mean 'the word of God' put in another way?
  • It doesn't appear to be explicit in the OT texts referring to the giving of the law, though. And it kind of sets a precedent for how the Koran was reportedly given to Muhammad that I don't usually hear mentioned by those dismissing the latter.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    I wonder if there might be something in the Jewish scriptures (i.e., the versions *they* rely on), in their understanding of particular passages, in the Talmud and Mishnah commentaries?

    I thought of the Koran, too. God told Gabriel, who told Mohammed.
  • DooneDoone Shipmate
    Mm, that hasn’t struck me before either, @Eutychus, very interesting.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    I've had a quick look at William Lane's Word Biblical Commentary - as that is the most immediately accessible to me.

    He points ou that in Deut 33:2 Moses declares that God came “with myriads of holy ones,” and in the LXX it says, “angels were with him at his right hand” (ἐκ δεξιῶν αὐτοῦ ἄγγελοι μετ᾿ αὐτοῦ) Lane references Ps 68:17 (not an obvious connection in all translations).

    Lane states that before first century, the idea had grown that angels had played a mediatorial role in the transmission of the law, and he references examples in the Book of Jubilees (1:26; 2:1) which refers to the law being dictated to Moses by “the Angel of the Presence.”
  • In a way, this ties in with a bit that struck me as curious in the story of Abraham and Isaac, Genesis 22. The text states that God tells Abe to sacrifice Isaac, yet when we get to the actual sacrifice, it is "the angle of the Lord" that stops him, not God directly.
    But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
    “Here I am,” he replied.
    “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
    The way that is phrased, one might almost think that it was the angel's idea (you did not withhold from me...) but we know it wasn't. Perhaps it was understood that when the text states "God spoke to him" it was understood that that phrase meant "God spoke to him through the messenger of the Lord" and it just wasn't thought necessary to clarify it every time.

    Although, having said that, I note that later in this same chapter, the angel comes back a second time and goes out of his way to say "thus says the Lord...", which kind of goes against my theory. I guess that is why that scene has always struck me as curious: who's in charge here???
  • That's the problem: Whenever you get "the angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament, you have to dither wondering if you're dealing with the pre-incarnate Christ (who gives himself away by saying "I" and "me" when he's doing Godtalk, and also accepts worship and sacrifice) or just an ordinary angel (who basically reports what God said in quotation and refuses worship or sacrifice directed toward himself). And as always, there are "mushy spots" where you can lean one way, then the other, because there just isn't enough material in the encounter to be wholly sure one way or the other.

    But I'm fairly sure it would be cheating to refer to the involvement of the preincarnate Christ in terms like "delivered by angels." That to me says "delivered by created beings," or what's the point of bringing up the matter at all? Seems a tad nitpicky to specify precisely which member of the Trinity actually handed off the Law.
  • David Bentley Hart has some articles addressing this, including this one and this one. To briefly summarize, it was a common belief at the time, both among pagans and Hellenized Jews, that between the earth and the heavens is a hierarchy of spiritual beings, mediating between us and God. The pagans tended to call them daemons but they are basically equivalent to angels. In Paul's view, before the incarnation of Christ, our relationship to God was mediated through these angels- and there is not necessarily a clear distinction between the good ones and the bad ones. These angels have rulership over the elements, the nations, the stars, etc. When God came down from heaven and became incarnate, and when he rose from the dead and ascended back, he busted through all these hierarchies so that we are no longer oppressed or subservient to them. We now have direct access to God in Christ and no longer need to appease or communicate through these hierarchies.
  • @SirPalomides, my mind had already been quite blown by all the various trains of thought spawned by this thread, and you've just blown it a bit more. I'll need to digest all that.

    Meanwhile after a bit of digging on my own account I found this. It notes the same text that @BroJames found, Dt 33:2, which does indeed give some precedent that I'd not seen, and adds this intriguing tidbit:
    This is analogous to the book of Revelation. Revelation 1:1 teaches this chain of revelation: God to Christ to an angel (not angels) to John (not Moses) to the people of God.
    That seems to be a deliberate echo of the narrative pattern in the OT accounts referring to Sinai - indeed, Revelation reads a lot more like an OT book than an NT one in many ways.

    That connected, in my tortuous thinking, to a thought of mine on the Getting vestments wrong... thread in Ecclesiantics, that the "bzzt/clank" noise in movie jail scenes across the world is, as I can attest, far from literally accurate, but functions as an auditory signal to the viewer that "this is a prison".

    I wonder if these NT references to angels are a biblical equivalent to that "bzzt/clank" noise? Not intended as a literalistic description of what exactly is going on every time, but a sort of "hey, we're talking old covenant revelation here" signal? That seems to be not too far from what Bentley Hart is saying.
  • The gnostics certainly had that whole "levels" between us and God thing going on, but I'm not at all sure we can claim it as an OT original. There are problems with things like the Dead Sea Scrolls, where such ideas seem to have mixed and melded with Hebrew ones.
  • Yeah the gnostics were presenting another variant of a common cosmology. You'll also see it in Iamblichus and Proclus, the Corpus Hermeticum, and Philo of Alexandria. And Islam inherited it like Christianity did, though perhaps nowadays it is better preserved in Islam (particularly in Shi'ism and Sufi currents).
  • Whoa, wait a moment! A "common" cosmology? Common to whom? I wouldn't expect the ancient pre-Hellenization Hebrews to have a cosmology in common with the Greeks. What evidence do you have? Citations?
  • I'm not talking about pre-Hellenization Hebrews. I'm talking about people living in Paul's world, including Hellenized Jews, neoplatonists, etc.
  • Okay, but in that case there hasn't been much time for "a shared cosmology" to be the answer for how all these angel references turn up in the various NT (Jewish) authors. I think we still have to turn to the OT and any other pre-Hellenization texts we can find for that explanation.
  • There's a lot that happened between the Old Testament texts and the 1st century AD. The Jewish diaspora had already been absorbing Greek thought and culture before Paul came along and Judaism was transforming pretty rapidly. Philo of Alexandria was roughly contemporary and also shows a strong fusion of Jewish and Greek thought. So turning to the Old Testament or solely Jewish texts isn't going to give the full picture.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    What about much older sources and stories? Babylonian, Egyptian, etc. The Hebrews* were up close and personal with those cultures for a long time. Normal for there to be cross-currents, in both directions.** And the Hebrews did, at least, sometimes borrow deities and practices.

    Thx.

    *(? I never remember which term applies when.)

    **Any theories and/or known evidence that the Hebrews influenced their captor cultures, and that the influence stayed?

    ***I'm kindly leaving out references to "Stargate", "Battlestar Galactica", etc. ;)
  • Oh yeah all those influences were important and remained important. And then you start seeing some Greek/Egyptian pagan currents showing influence from Judaism like the Corpus Hermeticum. The Book of Enoch gives a picture of Judaism slowly absorbing some Greek influences but Babylonian and Egyptian influence is there too.
  • And later on you see Sibylline oracles emanating from Jewish and Christian circles but using a pagan prophetic figure to support their views.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Somewhere, I've got a book called "Silent Voices, Sacred Lives". It has various women's writings, prophecies, etc., from a long stretch of time. IIRC, there's material from Sibylline oracles. Good book.
  • There's a lot that happened between the Old Testament texts and the 1st century AD. The Jewish diaspora had already been absorbing Greek thought and culture before Paul came along and Judaism was transforming pretty rapidly. Philo of Alexandria was roughly contemporary and also shows a strong fusion of Jewish and Greek thought. So turning to the Old Testament or solely Jewish texts isn't going to give the full picture.

    This is going way over my head.

    Could it be that the OT references to angels such as Dt 33:2 reflected the actual, prevailing cosmology of the time, but that when the NT refers back to them (as in the references I cited in my OP) the writers are not necessarily subscribing to the cosmology they refer to but making a sort of 'meta' allusion to it? Like if we talked in general speech about somebody about 'going back to his old demons' without necessarily meaning actual demons?
  • Parsimony E, parsimony.
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