Ship of Fools: St Joseph’s (St Damien of Molokai Parish), Windsor, Connecticut, USA


imageShip of Fools: St Joseph’s (St Damien of Molokai Parish), Windsor, Connecticut, USA

Recognizable as an actual Catholic mass – golden aura and all!

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Comments

  • "America" in church?
  • The tune known as America is the same tune that "God Save The Queen" is sung to. So why the devil not?

    Of course, "America" is often confused with "America the Beautiful", which is sung to the tune known as Materna.
  • Am I right in thinking that musical expressions of patriotism are generally more common in churches in the US than in churches in the UK?

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    I'm not a fan of singing "America" in church, but that may be a minority opinion, and it is in many an American hymnal. Presumably in this instance it was chosen because the next day was a national holiday (Labor Day).

    Those who like to sing it in church usually point to last of the three or four verses usually sung (fourth of the original eight verses):

    Our fathers' God to Thee,
    Author of Liberty,
    To thee we sing,
    Long may our land be bright
    With Freedom's holy light,
    Protect us by thy might
    Great God, our King.

    Am I right in thinking that musical expressions of patriotism are generally more common in churches in the US than in churches in the UK?
    I don't know. For one thing, it depends on the church/denomination. I've seen descriptions of Remembrance Day services and Parade Services in the UK that sound much more patriotic that anything I typically encounter in American Mainline Protestantism. On the other hand, patriotism in worship can be fairly normal in some evangelical churches.

    There can be other things at play, too. For example, Catholic parishes with a (historically) immigrant population may be trying to make a point to others about their American loyalty.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    There can be other things at play, too. For example, Catholic parishes with a (historically) immigrant population may be trying to make a point to others about their American loyalty.
    Sorry for the double post, but it occurred to me that the MWer reported that "America" was sung as the recessional, and in a Catholic context, the recessional is technically "outside" the liturgy, I think.
  • Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick Admin Emeritus
    edited September 2019
    Am I right in thinking that musical expressions of patriotism are generally more common in churches in the US than in churches in the UK?

    It used to be very usual for 'GSTQ' to be sung after Mattins. I believe that is still standard operating procedure at St Mary Abbots for one.
  • The tune known as America is the same tune that "God Save The Queen" is sung to. So why the devil not?

    Of course, "America" is often confused with "America the Beautiful", which is sung to the tune known as Materna.

    What were the words?
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    There can be other things at play, too. For example, Catholic parishes with a (historically) immigrant population may be trying to make a point to others about their American loyalty.
    Sorry for the double post, but it occurred to me that the MWer reported that "America" was sung as the recessional, and in a Catholic context, the recessional is technically "outside" the liturgy, I think.

    Not sure that the average bod in the pew would know that technicality. Have never sung a national song in church. The only context that it would be tolerable to me would be as a prayer for honest politicians.
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    The tune known as America is the same tune that "God Save The Queen" is sung to. So why the devil not?

    Of course, "America" is often confused with "America the Beautiful", which is sung to the tune known as Materna.

    What were the words?
    I've given you the final verse above. The two usual first verses are:

    My country, 'tis of thee,
    Sweet land of liberty,
    Of thee I sing.
    Land where my fathers died!
    Land of the Pilgrim's pride!
    From every mountain side,
    Let freedom ring!

    My native country, thee,
    Land of the noble free,
    Thy name I love.
    I love thy rocks and rills,
    Thy woods and templed hills;
    My heart with rapture fills
    Like that above.


    Alan29 wrote: »
    Not sure that the average bod in the pew would know that technicality.
    Nor would I, had not an (Anglo-Catholic) shipmate made the point in a thread once.

    Like I said, I'm not a fan of patriotic songs in church. That said, there are some songs "for the nation" as it were, that I think can be appropriate in worship. But "America" isn't one of them.

  • God Of Our Fathers is often sung in US churches on patriotic occasions. I've heard it in RC, TEC and Lutheran shacks.
  • We sing it on Anzac Day and Remembrance Day. It is patriotic but also a prayer. So is GSTQ but we sing that very rarely (the 95th birthday will probably be the next occasion) and only the first verse. I'd like to sing the second, praying for frustration of knavish tricks and so forth. Advance Australia Fair on Australia Day, but I don't like that for church. It's purely secular.
  • God Of Our Fathers is often sung in US churches on patriotic occasions. I've heard it in RC, TEC and Lutheran shacks.
    Yes, but it’s generic, in that it never specifies which country “this free land” is, so as @Gee D suggests, it can just as easily be sung in Australia or somewhere else as in the U.S. That and the fact that it is clearly and completely addressed to God in the form of a prayer makes it different, I think, from a song like “America” when it comes to things appropriate to sing in worship.

  • My apologies. I ought to have checked the link Miss Amanda gave which is to a very different hymn. I was thinking of one which is often called God of our Fathers, but also called The Recessional (by Kipling from memory). Having now read the link, I agree with Nick Tamen that the one he was referring to is also clearly a hymn and can properly be sung in a service. Another hymn sung normally sung at Anzac and Remembrance Day services is O God our help in ages past.
  • Irving Berlin's "God Bless America" gets quite a bit of play, too -- perhaps more than any of the others mentioned so far.
  • Irving Berlin's "God Bless America" gets quite a bit of play, too -- perhaps more than any of the others mentioned so far.
    In church?
  • Certainly.
  • Huh. In 58 years of churchgoing, I’ve never heard “God Bless America” sung in church, and I have trouble imagining anyone in my experience contemplating doing so, except for a particular strain of Southern Baptists and the like.

    Not that I’m doubting you. I’m wondering why singing something like “America” or “God Bless America” in church is common enough in your experience that it doesn’t seem at all out of the ordinary, while in my experience either would be seen as highly out of the ordinary. Are denominational differences at play? (I don’t know about that. I have doubts about Lutherans or Episcopalians of my experience singing either song in church. United Methodists, maybe.). Is it a regional thing? Generational? Something else? A combination of factors?
  • All I know is what I've experienced. I've sung it in RC, TEC and Lutheran churches.

    I lived for three years in Lake Placid, New York many years ago, and played the organ at the local RC church. I was honored to have Kate Smith in the congregation. Not that she was at her cabin on the lake every Sunday, but when she was, she was always in church. You haven't heard "God Bless America" until you've heard it sung by Kate Smith to your own organ accompaniment.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    :notworthy:

    And yes, I guess I can imagine it being sung in church if you have Kate Smith to sing it.
  • Unfortunately I never met Kate Smith, although one of the ladies in the choir was a good friend of hers. That lady also ran the local beauty shop. You can imagine the talk that went around the choir during idle moments.
  • Under the category "building": "One particularly striking feature is a mural of Christ on the cross over the still intact main altar. What is striking are the skull and crossbones that lie near the foot of the cross, which I presume are meant to symbolize Christ's triumph over death."
    The skull and crossbones illustrate an early Christian legend/tradition that the cross was planted over the grave of Adam. This image conveys the message that the first Adam brought death into the world; the second Adam, Christ, brings life and redemption to the dead Adam and to the humanity which he represents.
  • GrenacheGrenache Shipmate Posts: 14
    Then there are the low Episcopal churches which sang (I don't think there are a lot of them anymore) "The Star-Spangled Banner" at the Solemn Elevation of the Alms Basin. They were, I think, mostly in the deep South, altogether I witnessed it in the 90s in St. Louis.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Materna gets an outing for O mother dear, Jerusalem, When shall I come to thee or neither tune nor hymn would never be sung in our shack. I usually tolerate God of our fathers, whose almighty hand and Once to every man and nation around 4th July lest worse befall.
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