I'd be interested to know how many on this ship would be aggressive towards non-wearers. From some posts, I would say quite a few. Would it make a difference if the person went to the trouble of printing out a do-it-yourself badge citing exemption? Do you think that someone who threw a can of cream over a non-wearer was a hero or a bully? (Maybe there's a middle ground - just prejudiced and ignorant).
Of course, if everyone behaved in a civilised manner to those exempt from the legislation, mask wearing would fairly quickly die out. Which I would see as a good result, but the majority on this ship would see as a bad result. This is only against face masks to the extent that it is against any legislation which relies on social aggression towards minorities to be enforced.
My wife panics when she tries to wear a mask.
Aggression over mask wearing is not acceptable, either in support or opposition, and the proposed can of cream is assault and should be prosecuted as such. I don't believe that masks are reliant on aggression for enforcement. They rely primarily on the habit of most people of following the law most of the time, and further on people's sense of social responsibility. The law is used in this instance as a signifier - this is a good thing to do and important enough that you must do it. I think the law guides behaviour - in shops pretty much everyone wears a mask while in schools hardly anyone does.
People who can't wear a mask aren't going to be forced to wear them by someone being rude, and the people exploiting the exemption who could wear them are mostly belligerent arseholes who are going to be egged on by criticism.
I suffer from asthma and find I can't wear a mask for very long without it inducing breathlessness. So I got some visors to supplement.
I think showing willing is important. Any of us can be a risk or at risk from anyone else. At 77 and with asthma I'm in the danger zone. So I think it's in my interests to show willing when I go out.
I wouldn't be rude to someone not wearing a mask unless they were also far too close to me.
But I'm not very good at being rude. I was sorely tempted today, by someone who might just have been clueless. My cat had a tooth out and I had an appointment to collect her from the vet at 2.50. The drill is that everyone queues in the vets' car park, masked. A woman arrived minus mask, apparently thought that she couldn't queue without one, so shouted from a distance that she wanted to be seen first. Her appointment was for 3, and she was duly seen ahead of me. And even under that provocation, I still wasn't rude to her.
(She also parked in a disabled bay, but I think that was because she pulled into the car park, was surprised to see 8 people, all masked, in a socially distanced queue, and just pulled into the first available bay. There are three disabled bays, and all three were empty, so she wasn't preventing a genuinely disabled person from parking.)
I have a friend who is in a similar situation. She has been trying to desensitize herself, because she wants to be able to wear a mask (because it's the right thing to do). She started with a silk headscarf tied bank-robber style across her nose and mouth, then wore the scarf with the pointy end tucked in to her neck, and progressed. At the last time of asking, she's been able to wear a "normal" cloth mask for a short shopping trip. She's working on extending the time.
The purpose of masks is to protect other people if you've unknowingly got the virus. Unless people who can't (for whatever reason) wear a mask can demonstrate that they are taking significant extra precautions to make it very unlikely that they will catch the virus, I think they should stay home. Just like kids who aren't vaccinated get told to stay home during a measles epidemic.
I have a friend who panics about the mask, and feels like she's not getting enough oxygen. She bought one of those fingertip oxygen meters, and every time she panics, she puts it on and looks at her oxygen saturation. Just seeing the number in the 90's calms her and reassures her she's not suffocating.
I have a friend who is in a similar situation. She has been trying to desensitize herself, because she wants to be able to wear a mask (because it's the right thing to do). She started with a silk headscarf tied bank-robber style across her nose and mouth, then wore the scarf with the pointy end tucked in to her neck, and progressed. At the last time of asking, she's been able to wear a "normal" cloth mask for a short shopping trip. She's working on extending the time.
The purpose of masks is to protect other people if you've unknowingly got the virus. Unless people who can't (for whatever reason) wear a mask can demonstrate that they are taking significant extra precautions to make it very unlikely that they will catch the virus, I think they should stay home. Just like kids who aren't vaccinated get told to stay home during a measles epidemic.
My wife doesn't work outside the home and I do the vast bulk of our shopping. If she gets the virus it's likely to be from me or our daughter, and she's only going to one shop when she needs to do work post.
Pretty sure my mask difficulties are physiological. High pollen counts and dry dust don't help the asthma and peak flow checks tell me I'm at about 75% of where I should be. But of course YMMV.
I've got asthma too and am having problems. Which is why I started that "masks for people having problems" thread. But having found the lightest mask possible, I'm wearing the sucker and spending as little time as possible away from home. I too worry about "showing willing," and I wouldn't want someone to see me unmasked and have it be the last straw toward them saying "Well, I won't wear one either!" with no medical reason.
Here in Victoria you are liable to be challenged by the police if you are found to be anywhere outside your home without a mask or "suitable face covering". If you fail to produce ID, which might well be the case if you have merely gone out for a walk (permitted for one hour within 5km), you risk being manhandled to the ground, handcuffed and arrested. But maybe that's only if you are cheeky to the police officer.
So mask wearing not merely advised or recommended but compulsory. Presumably the declaration of a state of emergency overrides whatever legislation might protect one's usual civil rights.
People who can't wear a mask aren't going to be forced to wear them by someone being rude
I have no doubt that you would treat people without a mask in a civil manner, even though you would have no way of knowing whether their refusal was what you would view as valid. Sadly not all are like this.
My son was treated to being called a cunt and threatened with physical violence. This was not what triggered my post, it was after. Would that people were as civilised as you are (and maybe really believe people in general are). But there are a significant number, who if they feel permitted to act as vigilantes, will do so, often unpleasantly, and most people find that hard to stand up to.
So here's how to encourage it. Make a law where compliance is visible (wear mask, do not wear veil, do not have "excessively" long beard) but make it clear that there are valid reasons for exemption. Make statement about "social shaming" being a good way to ensure compliance. Light the blue touchpaper and leave it to work through.
My son was treated to being called a cunt and threatened with physical violence.
I assume that your son was out shopping or similar whilst not wearing a mask, and that he has what he thinks is a valid reason for not wearing a mask (I'm not going to ask what it is - I don't think it makes a difference, and having people trying to argue whether some third party they've never met "really" can't wear a mask or not is both pointless and stupid. So for the sake of this discussion, I'll stipulate that his reason for not wearing a mask is real.)
The purpose of wearing a mask is to stop the mask-wearer from infecting other people, in the event that the mask-wearer has Covid-19 but doesn't know it (because they have no symptoms yet, or are asymptomatic, or think it's just allergies, or ...)
As such, being in an enclosed public space with no mask on is itself an act of physical violence.
In the US, there is legal precedent - a man with HIV has been convicted of assault with a deadly weapon for failing to tell his sexual partners of his HIV status, having unprotected sex with them, and infecting them in the process. This would certainly carry over to people who knew they had Covid-19 going out in public and breathing on people. I don't know the state of play in the UK, but I seem to remember prosecutions for people spitting at eg. ticket collectors on trains and saying they have Covid, so it sounds quite similar.
We'll agree that when your son is out in public with no mask, he thinks he doesn't have Covid-19, because I'll assume that your son is a sensible, decent person who would quarantine himself if he'd had contact with a Covid patient etc. But most people who spread Covid-19 are in the same position - they don't know they have it. People who go to choir practices, restaurants, schools, or whatever else, and infect all their friends aren't (mostly) doing it because they're arseholes - they're doing it because they don't know they're sick.
Somehow, I suspect that whatever reason your son has for not wearing a mask doesn't also make him unable to exhale aerosolized SARS-CoV-2. So if your son is unfortunate enough to catch Covid-19, and he goes out shopping with no mask, he will kill people.
A lady and gentleman (about my age) came close behind me in the shop and I (very politely) let them know they should stand on the marked lines when queuing. They moved back. I then (just as politely) let them know that their mask needs to cover their nose as well as their mouth. The woman said ‘I’m not doing that, not with my conditions.” The bloke said “I can’t breathe with it over my nose.”
I said “You certainly won’t be able to breathe if you catch the virus - and the best way to do that is getting close to people without covering your mouth and nose.”
They said no more.
When I glanced back at them they were both wearing their masks properly and they queued properly for the rest of the time.
Hopefully they’ve learned something.
If you can’t wear a mask somebody else should be doing your shopping. I’m an NHS responder and taking shopping and medicines to the vulnerable. I get a call once every other day. This is a UK wide service run by the Royal Voluntary Service and all my calls are very local. That’s how it is set up. Our calls come in by app and we respond the same day, if we don’t it automatically calls the next local responder. I wish I’d had a card or something to give them. These are the kinds of people who are spreading the virus, yet there is ample provision for them not to go out.
--I don't go out much--in-building things (putting out trash, picking up mail and packages) a couple times a week, and rare errands in the neighborhood. Always masked and gloved. Mask is usually a bandanna or scarf. I do have some disposable masks, but I'm saving them.
When I'm masked, I periodically need to lift it up for some air (with no one around). I think the longest I've been masked is maybe an hour and a half. I do occasionally have mild panic, and one time that was a bit worse. I doubt that using a pulse-ox gadget would make me feel any more confident. My blood isn't where the problem is--it's in my airways, and probably my mind, too.
I haven't yet tried the common style of reusable mask (earloops, close-fitting, etc.). I suspect I'd have a problem with the fit, with the tightness of it, the ear loops, and the metal nose strip that some have.
I make sure I have the requisite multiple layers of fabric, tied fairly tightly, and only wear it once before hand-washing it. And the washing is an annoyance!
--I'm...shocked?...by some of the behavior and lore around masks. The violence by maskless people who are told to mask. And now I've heard of maskless people attacking the masked simply for wearing masks. (AIUI, it wasn't about mask requirements, just a couple of people becoming unhinged at the site of someone in a mask.)
--WTH is happening??? Possibilities: We Americans definitely don't like being told what to do. Anything health-related is an issue, because of our messed-up, sorry-excuse for a health care system. Our common...idea space? idealogical cloud? is fractured in so many directions. Splintered, even. Possibly most people are very scared now of something, or many somethings. And the news constantly has stories of all sorts of *other* bad, weird, ominous, maybe prescient things. Then there's the question of whether this is some fulfillment of someone's version of The End TImes (tm).
NOTE: I'm *not* saying we're in The End Times. But I come from a background that taught about that, and, purely on the basis of Biblical cues, I think a case could be made. Those ideas are tucked in my big "Don't Know" stack. I don't know if there's any truth to them. But Jesus said to pay attention. So I do, just in case.
Anyway, I looked around a bit, and I'm not the only one who's thinking this way. Some people are very hair-trigger, knee-jerk, "don't ask questions, just believe" believers about this sort of thing. If they're teaching, posting, tweeting, etc. about that...and it gets mixed into a papier-mache of politics, T, unsettling developments, social upset, street protests, street violence and looting, climate change, paying rent, getting food to eat, keeping kids safe and supervised and learning...
No wonder people are freaking out.
Plus Covid can sometimes injure the brain, AIUI. And in a mind that's already messed up from the last several months...
:eek: :votive:
I don't know the state of play in the UK, but I seem to remember prosecutions for people spitting at eg. ticket collectors on trains and saying they have Covid, so it sounds quite similar.
Spitting at someone constitutes assault in and of itself, and if that assault means the target contracts Covid then that would be an aggravating factor that might increase the charge to ABH, GBH, or even Manslaughter/Murder as appropriate.
Simply standing next to someone is not a crime, so even if that act causes them to catch Covid there is nothing to prosecute. Not under the current criminal code, anyway.
The woman said ‘I’m not doing that, not with my conditions.” The bloke said “I can’t breathe with it over my nose.”
This is mostly psychological or bullshit.
Most masks do not have a negative effect on breathing. Most people are fine with any mask.
From the American Lung Association:
Do Masks Cause Low Oxygen Levels?
Absolutely not. We wear masks all day long in the hospital. The masks are designed to be breathed through and there is no evidence that low oxygen levels occur. There is some evidence, however, that prolonged use of N-95 masks in patients with preexisting lung disease could cause some build-up of carbon dioxide levels in the body. People with preexisting lung problems should discuss mask wearing concerns with their health care providers. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that mask wearing or physical distancing weakens the immune system.
I have to fight panic attacks when I wear a mask. But that is psychological.
If you can’t wear a mask somebody else should be doing your shopping. I’m an NHS responder and taking shopping and medicines to the vulnerable. I get a call once every other day. This is a UK wide service run by the Royal Voluntary Service and all my calls are very local. That’s how it is set up. Our calls come in by app and we respond the same day, if we don’t it automatically calls the next local responder. I wish I’d had a card or something to give them. These are the kinds of people who are spreading the virus, yet there is ample provision for them not to go out.
Not in the U.S., which is a part of your audience. We rely on the kindness of neighbors or kin if we have them. And there are still doctor's offices we must visit in person on occasion. By all means such a person should stay home as much as possible--and probably already is--but there's no realistic way to make it 100% in the U.S. unless you have a helluva support network.
Social shaming is just not the way to go. Better to have some sort of legal enforcement, because pain in the ass though it would be to have to show a note or pass or whatever, that beats putting up with verbal or even physical attack from the general public. And authorities are supposed to be better trained then the general fools of the world who assume the worst of everybody.
I now have a number of very good triple masks with which I also add a coffee filter in the liner pocket, so I throw away the liner and save the masks until I have several to wash. My talented friend made them for me, when she heard I was having trouble keeping them on my left ear. These have two pieces of elastic that go around my head. When ever I feel a little closed in by them I switch my mind to thinking this mask is a HUG from my friend to keep me and others safe from a ventilator. I take a few long deep breaths and I am fine.
Absolutely not. We wear masks all day long in the hospital. The masks are designed to be breathed through and there is no evidence that low oxygen levels occur. There is some evidence, however, that prolonged use of N-95 masks in patients with preexisting lung disease could cause some build-up of carbon dioxide levels in the body. People with preexisting lung problems should discuss mask wearing concerns with their health care providers. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that mask wearing or physical distancing weakens the immune system.
I have to fight panic attacks when I wear a mask. But that is psychological.
Remembering, of course, that N-95 is a very high level of protection, significantly greater than would be needed in most situations. Other face coverings, while still more than adequate for reducing coronavirus transmission, would have a significantly reduced impact on lung function.
Reading these comments, when in Wales, does seem rather odd. It is not compulsory to wear a mask here, so some people do and some people don't. All no big deal. I cannot imagine a situation where people are shouted and yelled at for choosing not to. (The 2 metre distance still stands here, and many easing decisions made in England do not apply here. Wales has, apart from the instruction to wear masks, been very cautious compared to its neighbour.)
Reading these comments, when in Wales, does seem rather odd. It is not compulsory to wear a mask here, so some people do and some people don't. All no big deal.
This makes no sense at all. The face covering does not (mostly) protect you - it protects other people, in the event that you might unknowingly have Covid-19. There's no logic at all behind having some people make a personal choice to wear one and other people choosing not to. It's like saying that we know that passive smoking kills people, but it's people's personal choice whether to smoke in restaurants and workplaces or not.
When I go into a public space, my safety needs other people to be wearing masks, and is not greatly affected by whether I'm wearing one or not.
Read Alan Cresswell and resist judging asthma sufferers as psychologically affected. Even if it's true for some you can't know what is going on with everyone. I'm absolutely sure my issues are physiological. I'm wearing the same mask design as my wife. She's fine with it, I'm not. And I'm fine with visors.
Also, psychological issues can't necessarily be overcome by force of will. Some of those affected are rape survivors with PTSD who have flashbacks if their mouth or nose is covered. Putting a bright line between physical and psychological reasons for not being able to wear a mask is bullshit. Mental health issues are just as serious and potentially debilitating as physical health issues.
Also, psychological issues can't necessarily be overcome by force of will. Some of those affected are rape survivors with PTSD who have flashbacks if their mouth or nose is covered. Putting a bright line between physical and psychological reasons for not being able to wear a mask is bullshit. Mental health issues are just as serious and potentially debilitating as physical health issues.
Indeed they are. But people who can’t wear masks shouldn’t be indoors with people not part of their household, whatever the reason. Or we’ll never get the virus numbers down. Inconvenience - whatever the reason for it - is not important compared to stopping the spread of the virus. So those who can’t wear a mask need to rely on others/do online shopping etc.
This virus must be beaten, the countries who are trying to ‘live with it’ are actually dying of it - literally and economically.
In my extended family we have mask wearers and non wearers..... mixers and isolaters..... folk who are sailing through this pandemic and some who are on the very edge of their sanity.
There are those who have apparently been called to sit in their sofa for Great Britain and others who sooner or later will pull a muscle or break a limb if they carry on wildly exercising their way through this time.
It s everso easy to presume that one is in the right and others ‘who do not think like I do‘ are somehow beyond the pale.
Must. Should. Ought.
Thing is, we’re not going to be able to police Other People’s Choices.
Much as I disagree with Lots of people’s choices (person who hugged me last month, I ‘m looking at you)....... do I really want a nigh on Police State?
It’s a matter of life and death, so legislation is needed. As I said, as soon as it became law to wear masks 99% of people round here wore masks and gave those who didn’t a very wide berth.
We wouldn’t do it if we saw no reason to.
The legislation helped, I think, because people were no longer feeling odd for choosing to wear them. We all have to, so we just do.
They did it months before us in Germany and look at their numbers. It’s very pleasant to be there. It feels safe. In my son’s state there are no cases and everyone complies with the rules. I love it - the opposite of a police state, a place of freedom. (Yes, I would go and live there if I could, before you ask. If it gets any worse here we will go for the 90 days we are allowed due to Brexshit).
Thing is, legislation with no teeth can end up as Policed by the Public, which never ends well.
But which I guess the govt are aiming for? Some kind of new social norm bought in by, well what exactly?
Shaming people?
Then again legislation with no teeth is v often interpreted as “meh, I can if I want to but nothing much happens if I don’t “
In those cases , I suppose, society’s disapproval is supposed to work?
Who decides though?
The police don’t want to.
Seems to me that the UK govt can’t quite make up it’s mind whether this Is a pandemic or not.
My point is that it’s the opposite of shaming people. People will do it if ‘it’s the law’ without feeling silly/embarrassed for choosing to wear one.
I agree that the U.K. govt is a total and utter horrendous shambles. They have been slow to act in every way and on every occasion - which has cost countless lives.
But, when they do - eventually - act, then it’s crazy to go against the measures which have been shown to work in other countries.
What Lamb Chopped said earlier about the availability of help not being the same everywhere.
--Lots of people don't have anybody at all who could/would help. If a person (P1) does have someone (S1), S1 would be putting theirself at risk--especially if S1 is in a high-risk group, but *anyone* would be at some risk.
--And the Scientific/Medical Powers That Be (SMPTB) keep saying "these people aren't at (much) risk" and "you can't get it that way". To be followed up with "hmmm, ok, these people are at risk, and you can get it that way".*
--Here in the US, there are all sorts of charities. There are some "do for your neighbor" networks. AIUI, there's one here in the SF Bay Area where some people do the kind of helping you speak of. But I suspect there aren't nearly enough helpers for even a fraction of the people who need help.
--I want people to wear masks, etc. I want people to calm down, and stop attacking each other. (Some poor woman in a store got her leg broken the other day.) I'm not sure that "social shaming" is wise or safe. I don't know what should be done. But it's not as simple as "mask; if you can't/won't, stay home and your needs will be supplied". Heck, some employers won't *let* employees wear masks. E.g., a sheriff in Florida, I think, has mostly forbidden them, even in his offices.
--Given ongoing problems with police, here in the US, and in the wake of Mr. Floyd's death and all the protests...possibly not a wise idea to expect police to do it well...or at all. The bad ones are continuing to do the same stuff; many others (whether also bad or being told to support their co-workers) are in sympathy; and there might be enough good/attempting-to-be-good cops to make a difference.
--What might work here in the US would also require a clutch of miracles that would make the Holy Spirit's head spin:
....get T to shut up for a week;
....get a few *very* respected medical/scientific folks (who are widely known and who can communicate well in plain, simple terms) to focus on one simple message, stick with it, and communicate it;
...sincerely apologize for any previous confusion
...get other people the public trusts to communicate it (as many celebs and athletes have already done);
...acknowledge that the whole situation is terrifying; give people a simple, consistent, non-condescending message in simple, consistent, non-condescending language; and
...encourage people.
*I think the majority of them are proceeding in good faith. Science and medicine are complicated, messy, and can take a lot of time to do well. And they're done by human beings currently under great stress, who also have to deal political machinations. And they're at risk, like everyone else. I wish them well. It's just a royal pain for everyone concerned.
I'd be interested to know how many on this ship would be aggressive towards non-wearers. From some posts, I would say quite a few. Would it make a difference if the person went to the trouble of printing out a do-it-yourself badge citing exemption? Do you think that someone who threw a can of cream over a non-wearer was a hero or a bully? (Maybe there's a middle ground - just prejudiced and ignorant).
I admit I wonder why some people aren't wearing masks, or face-coverings. But for all I know they have some good mental or physical health reason not to. No doubt some people aren't wearing coverings because 'I'm healthy' or 'I'm not afraid of catching anything' or 'the virus isn't around here anymore'. As I understand one of the reasons to mask up is to prevent others from contracting the virus from you, should you have it unbeknownst, I think the attitude - whatever the facts may be - is selfish and/or stupid. But I don't know who's exempted fairly, and who's being a dick. So for that reason I'm not getting involved with the issue, unless someone drags me into it. And that hasn't happened yet.
I haven't seen anyone challenge anyone else yet for not wearing a face-covering. Though I can understand why some people find going out and about stressful with so many others not complying (for whatever reason), if they see every uncovered face as a potential risk to themselves. I can even understand why some people get angry at this perceived risk to themselves from people who apparently don't care if they injure others.
So far, virtually all shoppers I've seen have put their masks etc on, before coming in. Though, come to think of it, while it is the Scottish Government's ruling that shoppers in indoor shopping malls must cover up, I often see people not wearing coverings as they move around the mall between the shops.
This report taken in conjunction with this seems to indicate little room for complacency about mask-wearing just for now, until other data emerges.
By the way, I'm not criticising anyone asthmatic for not wearing their mask. I truly am not. But I presume that asthmatic-suffering doctors, nurses, dental people etc, (eg, my severely asthmatic niece) all wear masks for many hours per working day simply to do their ordinary work. I'm not questioning how stressful it must feel for asthmatics unused to wearing a mask to have to do so. I'm sure there must be genuine exemptions for people with severe respiratory illness (eg, those who are on 15 hours of oxygen per day etc). But I really hope that not everyone with severe asthma is choosing not to wear a mask, speaking generally, when the normal course of their profession would dictate they should!
Leorning Cniht: You are not really responding to the issue I raised. Fair enough, why should you?
It's pointless having arguments between people who take opposite views on the relative importance of personal freedom of action vs rights of community. No doubt we would all say we want to best balance but we end up with quite entrenched disagreements.
I was not interested in arguing whether it would be right to tell those who cannot wear masks to say at home, but rather about the poorness of the current situation, because although I presume that were you in charge, no exception would be made to the rule of face masks in enclosed spaces, that is not what the UK Government has done. It has also specifically given no powers to shop personnel to enforce the rules, nor SFAIK has it taken any action against stores like Sainsbury's who have publicly stated that they are not going to enforce the rule.
What I object to is this type of situation that creates the atmosphere in which bullying vigilantes are enabled to feel good about their aggressions towards minorities who are exercising a right explicitly given by the law.
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service. That most will not exercise that right is a matter for USDAW (in the UK) to take up with employers.
A brand new business just opened in our small town. It is a coffee shop and the weekly town newspaper printed a nice article about the shop and it's owner on the front page. They also printed a picture of the owner masked serving coffee to an unmasked customer. Now sadly people around town who believe in masks are saying they will not support the store. I have to admit that was also my first reaction as well. Truth be told, I do not drink coffee so I would not be going there anyway, but I admit that picture was a turn off. I hope if I did drink coffee I would still take a look for myself and see how a visit went to help support this new business.
Read Alan Cresswell and resist judging asthma sufferers as psychologically affected. Even if it's true for some you can't know what is going on with everyone. I'm absolutely sure my issues are physiological. I'm wearing the same mask design as my wife. She's fine with it, I'm not. And I'm fine with visors.
You are inferring judgement. I know my panic when I wear a mask is psychological. For me, the panic is mild enough to overcome, for others it will be more difficult.
The point of my post is that in far and away the majority of situations, physical there is no impediment to breathing.
And what Boogie said.
What Lamb Chopped said earlier about the availability of help not being the same everywhere.
--Lots of people don't have anybody at all who could/would help. If a person (P1) does have someone (S1), S1 would be putting theirself at risk--especially if S1 is in a high-risk group, but *anyone* would be at some risk.
--And the Scientific/Medical Powers That Be (SMPTB) keep saying "these people aren't at (much) risk" and "you can't get it that way". To be followed up with "hmmm, ok, these people are at risk, and you can get it that way".*
--Here in the US, there are all sorts of charities. There are some "do for your neighbor" networks. AIUI, there's one here in the SF Bay Area where some people do the kind of helping you speak of. But I suspect there aren't nearly enough helpers for even a fraction of the people who need help.
--I want people to wear masks, etc. I want people to calm down, and stop attacking each other. (Some poor woman in a store got her leg broken the other day.) I'm not sure that "social shaming" is wise or safe. I don't know what should be done. But it's not as simple as "mask; if you can't/won't, stay home and your needs will be supplied". Heck, some employers won't *let* employees wear masks. E.g., a sheriff in Florida, I think, has mostly forbidden them, even in his offices.
--Given ongoing problems with police, here in the US, and in the wake of Mr. Floyd's death and all the protests...possibly not a wise idea to expect police to do it well...or at all. The bad ones are continuing to do the same stuff; many others (whether also bad or being told to support their co-workers) are in sympathy; and there might be enough good/attempting-to-be-good cops to make a difference.
--What might work here in the US would also require a clutch of miracles that would make the Holy Spirit's head spin:
....get T to shut up for a week;
....get a few *very* respected medical/scientific folks (who are widely known and who can communicate well in plain, simple terms) to focus on one simple message, stick with it, and communicate it;
...sincerely apologize for any previous confusion
...get other people the public trusts to communicate it (as many celebs and athletes have already done);
...acknowledge that the whole situation is terrifying; give people a simple, consistent, non-condescending message in simple, consistent, non-condescending language; and
...encourage people.
*I think the majority of them are proceeding in good faith. Science and medicine are complicated, messy, and can take a lot of time to do well. And they're done by human beings currently under great stress, who also have to deal political machinations. And they're at risk, like everyone else. I wish them well. It's just a royal pain for everyone concerned.
I like this. I wish very much the Holy Spirit would see to just such a set of miracles, but I'm not holding my breath. Especially the one about Trump shutting up...
[considers...]
You reckon ten sprained fingers and a dislocated jaw ought to do it? Or would he just type with his toes?
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service. That most will not exercise that right is a matter for USDAW (in the UK) to take up with employers.
Last night I ate at a restaurant (outside patio, people! sheesh ) where they had a freaking big sign up telling everybody that they had to wear masks inside because it was the LAW (strong implication: don't blame us, don't fight with us, take it up with the country exec). I think that is a good thing. Workers have enough to worry about without using their "moral authority" to enforce hygiene. Give them someone to blame--the local legislative will never feel the pain.
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service. That most will not exercise that right is a matter for USDAW (in the UK) to take up with employers.
Last night I ate at a restaurant (outside patio, people! sheesh ) where they had a freaking big sign up telling everybody that they had to wear masks inside because it was the LAW (strong implication: don't blame us, don't fight with us, take it up with the country exec). I think that is a good thing. Workers have enough to worry about without using their "moral authority" to enforce hygiene. Give them someone to blame--the local legislative will never feel the pain.
Oh sure, I support mask wearing being compulsory for all who can, but I was responding to the claim that shops needed specific powers to enforce it. Shops have the right to refuse service and ultimately it's up to staff working there whether they think the risks associated with challenging the maskless are worse than not doing so.
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service. That most will not exercise that right is a matter for USDAW (in the UK) to take up with employers.
Last night I ate at a restaurant (outside patio, people! sheesh ) where they had a freaking big sign up telling everybody that they had to wear masks inside because it was the LAW (strong implication: don't blame us, don't fight with us, take it up with the country exec). I think that is a good thing. Workers have enough to worry about without using their "moral authority" to enforce hygiene. Give them someone to blame--the local legislative will never feel the pain.
Oh sure, I support mask wearing being compulsory for all who can, but I was responding to the claim that shops needed specific powers to enforce it. Shops have the right to refuse service and ultimately it's up to staff working there whether they think the risks associated with challenging the maskless are worse than not doing so.
But the normal weighing of risks in retail is: will they shop here or not? Not, will my doorguard get physically assaulted?
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service. That most will not exercise that right is a matter for USDAW (in the UK) to take up with employers.
Last night I ate at a restaurant (outside patio, people! sheesh ) where they had a freaking big sign up telling everybody that they had to wear masks inside because it was the LAW (strong implication: don't blame us, don't fight with us, take it up with the country exec). I think that is a good thing. Workers have enough to worry about without using their "moral authority" to enforce hygiene. Give them someone to blame--the local legislative will never feel the pain.
Oh sure, I support mask wearing being compulsory for all who can, but I was responding to the claim that shops needed specific powers to enforce it. Shops have the right to refuse service and ultimately it's up to staff working there whether they think the risks associated with challenging the maskless are worse than not doing so.
But the normal weighing of risks in retail is: will they shop here or not? Not, will my doorguard get physically assaulted?
Tell that to my sister when she worked nights at McDonalds.
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service. That most will not exercise that right is a matter for USDAW (in the UK) to take up with employers.
Last night I ate at a restaurant (outside patio, people! sheesh ) where they had a freaking big sign up telling everybody that they had to wear masks inside because it was the LAW (strong implication: don't blame us, don't fight with us, take it up with the country exec). I think that is a good thing. Workers have enough to worry about without using their "moral authority" to enforce hygiene. Give them someone to blame--the local legislative will never feel the pain.
Oh sure, I support mask wearing being compulsory for all who can, but I was responding to the claim that shops needed specific powers to enforce it. Shops have the right to refuse service and ultimately it's up to staff working there whether they think the risks associated with challenging the maskless are worse than not doing so.
But the normal weighing of risks in retail is: will they shop here or not? Not, will my doorguard get physically assaulted?
Tell that to my sister when she worked nights at McDonalds.
What does that have to do with decisions made by the restaurant owner, unless perhaps not to open nights?
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service. That most will not exercise that right is a matter for USDAW (in the UK) to take up with employers.
Last night I ate at a restaurant (outside patio, people! sheesh ) where they had a freaking big sign up telling everybody that they had to wear masks inside because it was the LAW (strong implication: don't blame us, don't fight with us, take it up with the country exec). I think that is a good thing. Workers have enough to worry about without using their "moral authority" to enforce hygiene. Give them someone to blame--the local legislative will never feel the pain.
Oh sure, I support mask wearing being compulsory for all who can, but I was responding to the claim that shops needed specific powers to enforce it. Shops have the right to refuse service and ultimately it's up to staff working there whether they think the risks associated with challenging the maskless are worse than not doing so.
But the normal weighing of risks in retail is: will they shop here or not? Not, will my doorguard get physically assaulted?
Tell that to my sister when she worked nights at McDonalds.
What does that have to do with decisions made by the restaurant owner, unless perhaps not to open nights?
Your reply didn't have anything to do with the point I was making, why should mine with yours?
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service.
There isn't an unconditional right to refuse service, and you can be prosecuted under Discrimination Legislation (I can't give chapter and verse) for refusing service to a minority group, such as those exempt from the need to wear masks.
Shops don't need any powers beyond their normal, legal right to refuse service.
There isn't an unconditional right to refuse service, and you can be prosecuted under Discrimination Legislation (I can't give chapter and verse) for refusing service to a minority group, such as those exempt from the need to wear masks.
Sure, and that's perfectly reasonable. Are you suggesting that shops should be able to turn away people with disabilities that prevent them wearing a mask?
A brand new business just opened in our small town. It is a coffee shop and the weekly town newspaper printed a nice article about the shop and it's owner on the front page. They also printed a picture of the owner masked serving coffee to an unmasked customer. Now sadly people around town who believe in masks are saying they will not support the store.
Despite being anti-mask, I would have no criticism at all for people boycotting a shop if they genuinely believe that not wearing a mask is a health hazard, and a business make it fairly clear that they intend not to prevent, or even to encourage, people not to wear masks as they queue for their coffee. If he is not making a pitch to non maskers to support his shop, he should have been more careful.
LambChopped:
telling everybody that they had to wear masks inside because it was the LAW
In a restaurant??? Where is that a law? We are trying to support local restaurants and in the probably 10 or so visits since mask-day, I've never seen a mask. How are you supposed to eat?
But in the UK, as I have already said, the LAW does not mandate masks for everyone anywhere. It's interesting that at the Snooker world championship, the (now re-admitted) spectators are not wearing masks except for a few. SFAIK the Crucible is an enclosed space, and one of the smaller venues, so many churches would be as large.
As to the issue of whether it is unreasonable to claim "extreme distress" at wearing a mask, we must be wary of thinking we understand what this could mean to a person with any degree of mental illness, we may co-exist with breathing difficulties.
Comments
My wife panics when she tries to wear a mask.
Aggression over mask wearing is not acceptable, either in support or opposition, and the proposed can of cream is assault and should be prosecuted as such. I don't believe that masks are reliant on aggression for enforcement. They rely primarily on the habit of most people of following the law most of the time, and further on people's sense of social responsibility. The law is used in this instance as a signifier - this is a good thing to do and important enough that you must do it. I think the law guides behaviour - in shops pretty much everyone wears a mask while in schools hardly anyone does.
People who can't wear a mask aren't going to be forced to wear them by someone being rude, and the people exploiting the exemption who could wear them are mostly belligerent arseholes who are going to be egged on by criticism.
I suffer from asthma and find I can't wear a mask for very long without it inducing breathlessness. So I got some visors to supplement.
I think showing willing is important. Any of us can be a risk or at risk from anyone else. At 77 and with asthma I'm in the danger zone. So I think it's in my interests to show willing when I go out.
I find seeing people in masks reminds me that there’s a virus about and to be very careful the distance and hand hygiene.
But I'm not very good at being rude. I was sorely tempted today, by someone who might just have been clueless. My cat had a tooth out and I had an appointment to collect her from the vet at 2.50. The drill is that everyone queues in the vets' car park, masked. A woman arrived minus mask, apparently thought that she couldn't queue without one, so shouted from a distance that she wanted to be seen first. Her appointment was for 3, and she was duly seen ahead of me. And even under that provocation, I still wasn't rude to her.
(She also parked in a disabled bay, but I think that was because she pulled into the car park, was surprised to see 8 people, all masked, in a socially distanced queue, and just pulled into the first available bay. There are three disabled bays, and all three were empty, so she wasn't preventing a genuinely disabled person from parking.)
I have a friend who is in a similar situation. She has been trying to desensitize herself, because she wants to be able to wear a mask (because it's the right thing to do). She started with a silk headscarf tied bank-robber style across her nose and mouth, then wore the scarf with the pointy end tucked in to her neck, and progressed. At the last time of asking, she's been able to wear a "normal" cloth mask for a short shopping trip. She's working on extending the time.
The purpose of masks is to protect other people if you've unknowingly got the virus. Unless people who can't (for whatever reason) wear a mask can demonstrate that they are taking significant extra precautions to make it very unlikely that they will catch the virus, I think they should stay home. Just like kids who aren't vaccinated get told to stay home during a measles epidemic.
I've found that as well.
My wife doesn't work outside the home and I do the vast bulk of our shopping. If she gets the virus it's likely to be from me or our daughter, and she's only going to one shop when she needs to do work post.
This all sucks.
So mask wearing not merely advised or recommended but compulsory. Presumably the declaration of a state of emergency overrides whatever legislation might protect one's usual civil rights.
My son was treated to being called a cunt and threatened with physical violence. This was not what triggered my post, it was after. Would that people were as civilised as you are (and maybe really believe people in general are). But there are a significant number, who if they feel permitted to act as vigilantes, will do so, often unpleasantly, and most people find that hard to stand up to.
So here's how to encourage it. Make a law where compliance is visible (wear mask, do not wear veil, do not have "excessively" long beard) but make it clear that there are valid reasons for exemption. Make statement about "social shaming" being a good way to ensure compliance. Light the blue touchpaper and leave it to work through.
I assume that your son was out shopping or similar whilst not wearing a mask, and that he has what he thinks is a valid reason for not wearing a mask (I'm not going to ask what it is - I don't think it makes a difference, and having people trying to argue whether some third party they've never met "really" can't wear a mask or not is both pointless and stupid. So for the sake of this discussion, I'll stipulate that his reason for not wearing a mask is real.)
The purpose of wearing a mask is to stop the mask-wearer from infecting other people, in the event that the mask-wearer has Covid-19 but doesn't know it (because they have no symptoms yet, or are asymptomatic, or think it's just allergies, or ...)
As such, being in an enclosed public space with no mask on is itself an act of physical violence.
In the US, there is legal precedent - a man with HIV has been convicted of assault with a deadly weapon for failing to tell his sexual partners of his HIV status, having unprotected sex with them, and infecting them in the process. This would certainly carry over to people who knew they had Covid-19 going out in public and breathing on people. I don't know the state of play in the UK, but I seem to remember prosecutions for people spitting at eg. ticket collectors on trains and saying they have Covid, so it sounds quite similar.
We'll agree that when your son is out in public with no mask, he thinks he doesn't have Covid-19, because I'll assume that your son is a sensible, decent person who would quarantine himself if he'd had contact with a Covid patient etc. But most people who spread Covid-19 are in the same position - they don't know they have it. People who go to choir practices, restaurants, schools, or whatever else, and infect all their friends aren't (mostly) doing it because they're arseholes - they're doing it because they don't know they're sick.
Somehow, I suspect that whatever reason your son has for not wearing a mask doesn't also make him unable to exhale aerosolized SARS-CoV-2. So if your son is unfortunate enough to catch Covid-19, and he goes out shopping with no mask, he will kill people.
He should stay home.
I said “You certainly won’t be able to breathe if you catch the virus - and the best way to do that is getting close to people without covering your mouth and nose.”
They said no more.
When I glanced back at them they were both wearing their masks properly and they queued properly for the rest of the time.
Hopefully they’ve learned something.
If you can’t wear a mask somebody else should be doing your shopping. I’m an NHS responder and taking shopping and medicines to the vulnerable. I get a call once every other day. This is a UK wide service run by the Royal Voluntary Service and all my calls are very local. That’s how it is set up. Our calls come in by app and we respond the same day, if we don’t it automatically calls the next local responder. I wish I’d had a card or something to give them. These are the kinds of people who are spreading the virus, yet there is ample provision for them not to go out.
Lack of communication?
--I don't go out much--in-building things (putting out trash, picking up mail and packages) a couple times a week, and rare errands in the neighborhood. Always masked and gloved. Mask is usually a bandanna or scarf. I do have some disposable masks, but I'm saving them.
When I'm masked, I periodically need to lift it up for some air (with no one around). I think the longest I've been masked is maybe an hour and a half. I do occasionally have mild panic, and one time that was a bit worse. I doubt that using a pulse-ox gadget would make me feel any more confident. My blood isn't where the problem is--it's in my airways, and probably my mind, too.
I haven't yet tried the common style of reusable mask (earloops, close-fitting, etc.). I suspect I'd have a problem with the fit, with the tightness of it, the ear loops, and the metal nose strip that some have.
I make sure I have the requisite multiple layers of fabric, tied fairly tightly, and only wear it once before hand-washing it. And the washing is an annoyance!
--I'm...shocked?...by some of the behavior and lore around masks. The violence by maskless people who are told to mask. And now I've heard of maskless people attacking the masked simply for wearing masks. (AIUI, it wasn't about mask requirements, just a couple of people becoming unhinged at the site of someone in a mask.)
--WTH is happening??? Possibilities: We Americans definitely don't like being told what to do. Anything health-related is an issue, because of our messed-up, sorry-excuse for a health care system. Our common...idea space? idealogical cloud? is fractured in so many directions. Splintered, even. Possibly most people are very scared now of something, or many somethings. And the news constantly has stories of all sorts of *other* bad, weird, ominous, maybe prescient things. Then there's the question of whether this is some fulfillment of someone's version of The End TImes (tm).
NOTE: I'm *not* saying we're in The End Times. But I come from a background that taught about that, and, purely on the basis of Biblical cues, I think a case could be made. Those ideas are tucked in my big "Don't Know" stack. I don't know if there's any truth to them. But Jesus said to pay attention. So I do, just in case.
Anyway, I looked around a bit, and I'm not the only one who's thinking this way. Some people are very hair-trigger, knee-jerk, "don't ask questions, just believe" believers about this sort of thing. If they're teaching, posting, tweeting, etc. about that...and it gets mixed into a papier-mache of politics, T, unsettling developments, social upset, street protests, street violence and looting, climate change, paying rent, getting food to eat, keeping kids safe and supervised and learning...
No wonder people are freaking out.
Plus Covid can sometimes injure the brain, AIUI. And in a mind that's already messed up from the last several months...
:eek: :votive:
--Can we change the reality channel yet?
Spitting at someone constitutes assault in and of itself, and if that assault means the target contracts Covid then that would be an aggravating factor that might increase the charge to ABH, GBH, or even Manslaughter/Murder as appropriate.
Simply standing next to someone is not a crime, so even if that act causes them to catch Covid there is nothing to prosecute. Not under the current criminal code, anyway.
Most masks do not have a negative effect on breathing. Most people are fine with any mask.
From the American Lung Association:
I have to fight panic attacks when I wear a mask. But that is psychological.
Not in the U.S., which is a part of your audience. We rely on the kindness of neighbors or kin if we have them. And there are still doctor's offices we must visit in person on occasion. By all means such a person should stay home as much as possible--and probably already is--but there's no realistic way to make it 100% in the U.S. unless you have a helluva support network.
Social shaming is just not the way to go. Better to have some sort of legal enforcement, because pain in the ass though it would be to have to show a note or pass or whatever, that beats putting up with verbal or even physical attack from the general public. And authorities are supposed to be better trained then the general fools of the world who assume the worst of everybody.
Re the unmasked woman in disabled parking:
She may be clueless or a scofflaw. But maybe she had an invisible disability.
FWIW.
This makes no sense at all. The face covering does not (mostly) protect you - it protects other people, in the event that you might unknowingly have Covid-19. There's no logic at all behind having some people make a personal choice to wear one and other people choosing not to. It's like saying that we know that passive smoking kills people, but it's people's personal choice whether to smoke in restaurants and workplaces or not.
When I go into a public space, my safety needs other people to be wearing masks, and is not greatly affected by whether I'm wearing one or not.
Read Alan Cresswell and resist judging asthma sufferers as psychologically affected. Even if it's true for some you can't know what is going on with everyone. I'm absolutely sure my issues are physiological. I'm wearing the same mask design as my wife. She's fine with it, I'm not. And I'm fine with visors.
Indeed they are. But people who can’t wear masks shouldn’t be indoors with people not part of their household, whatever the reason. Or we’ll never get the virus numbers down. Inconvenience - whatever the reason for it - is not important compared to stopping the spread of the virus. So those who can’t wear a mask need to rely on others/do online shopping etc.
This virus must be beaten, the countries who are trying to ‘live with it’ are actually dying of it - literally and economically.
There are those who have apparently been called to sit in their sofa for Great Britain and others who sooner or later will pull a muscle or break a limb if they carry on wildly exercising their way through this time.
It s everso easy to presume that one is in the right and others ‘who do not think like I do‘ are somehow beyond the pale.
Must. Should. Ought.
Thing is, we’re not going to be able to police Other People’s Choices.
Much as I disagree with Lots of people’s choices (person who hugged me last month, I ‘m looking at you)....... do I really want a nigh on Police State?
Nope
(But I reserve the right to harbour a grudge)
It’s a matter of life and death, so legislation is needed. As I said, as soon as it became law to wear masks 99% of people round here wore masks and gave those who didn’t a very wide berth.
We wouldn’t do it if we saw no reason to.
The legislation helped, I think, because people were no longer feeling odd for choosing to wear them. We all have to, so we just do.
They did it months before us in Germany and look at their numbers. It’s very pleasant to be there. It feels safe. In my son’s state there are no cases and everyone complies with the rules. I love it - the opposite of a police state, a place of freedom. (Yes, I would go and live there if I could, before you ask. If it gets any worse here we will go for the 90 days we are allowed due to Brexshit).
Thing is, legislation with no teeth can end up as Policed by the Public, which never ends well.
But which I guess the govt are aiming for? Some kind of new social norm bought in by, well what exactly?
Shaming people?
Then again legislation with no teeth is v often interpreted as “meh, I can if I want to but nothing much happens if I don’t “
In those cases , I suppose, society’s disapproval is supposed to work?
Who decides though?
The police don’t want to.
Seems to me that the UK govt can’t quite make up it’s mind whether this Is a pandemic or not.
Casino anyone?
It seems to me that this is the consequence of electing someone who proudly proclaims his desire to both have his cake and eat it.
I agree that the U.K. govt is a total and utter horrendous shambles. They have been slow to act in every way and on every occasion - which has cost countless lives.
But, when they do - eventually - act, then it’s crazy to go against the measures which have been shown to work in other countries.
There is no workable enforceable legislation in place.
It might very well be The Law to wear masks in shops, but what happens when people do not?
(I think Wales is different?)
So far the great British public seem to be (mostly) sensible.
But iirc there have been a few ugly situations as tempers run high. And there have been protests.
What Lamb Chopped said earlier about the availability of help not being the same everywhere.
--Lots of people don't have anybody at all who could/would help. If a person (P1) does have someone (S1), S1 would be putting theirself at risk--especially if S1 is in a high-risk group, but *anyone* would be at some risk.
--And the Scientific/Medical Powers That Be (SMPTB) keep saying "these people aren't at (much) risk" and "you can't get it that way". To be followed up with "hmmm, ok, these people are at risk, and you can get it that way".*
--Here in the US, there are all sorts of charities. There are some "do for your neighbor" networks. AIUI, there's one here in the SF Bay Area where some people do the kind of helping you speak of. But I suspect there aren't nearly enough helpers for even a fraction of the people who need help.
--I want people to wear masks, etc. I want people to calm down, and stop attacking each other. (Some poor woman in a store got her leg broken the other day.) I'm not sure that "social shaming" is wise or safe. I don't know what should be done. But it's not as simple as "mask; if you can't/won't, stay home and your needs will be supplied". Heck, some employers won't *let* employees wear masks. E.g., a sheriff in Florida, I think, has mostly forbidden them, even in his offices.
--Given ongoing problems with police, here in the US, and in the wake of Mr. Floyd's death and all the protests...possibly not a wise idea to expect police to do it well...or at all. The bad ones are continuing to do the same stuff; many others (whether also bad or being told to support their co-workers) are in sympathy; and there might be enough good/attempting-to-be-good cops to make a difference.
--What might work here in the US would also require a clutch of miracles that would make the Holy Spirit's head spin:
....get T to shut up for a week;
....get a few *very* respected medical/scientific folks (who are widely known and who can communicate well in plain, simple terms) to focus on one simple message, stick with it, and communicate it;
...sincerely apologize for any previous confusion
...get other people the public trusts to communicate it (as many celebs and athletes have already done);
...acknowledge that the whole situation is terrifying; give people a simple, consistent, non-condescending message in simple, consistent, non-condescending language; and
...encourage people.
*I think the majority of them are proceeding in good faith. Science and medicine are complicated, messy, and can take a lot of time to do well. And they're done by human beings currently under great stress, who also have to deal political machinations. And they're at risk, like everyone else. I wish them well. It's just a royal pain for everyone concerned.
I admit I wonder why some people aren't wearing masks, or face-coverings. But for all I know they have some good mental or physical health reason not to. No doubt some people aren't wearing coverings because 'I'm healthy' or 'I'm not afraid of catching anything' or 'the virus isn't around here anymore'. As I understand one of the reasons to mask up is to prevent others from contracting the virus from you, should you have it unbeknownst, I think the attitude - whatever the facts may be - is selfish and/or stupid. But I don't know who's exempted fairly, and who's being a dick. So for that reason I'm not getting involved with the issue, unless someone drags me into it. And that hasn't happened yet.
I haven't seen anyone challenge anyone else yet for not wearing a face-covering. Though I can understand why some people find going out and about stressful with so many others not complying (for whatever reason), if they see every uncovered face as a potential risk to themselves. I can even understand why some people get angry at this perceived risk to themselves from people who apparently don't care if they injure others.
So far, virtually all shoppers I've seen have put their masks etc on, before coming in. Though, come to think of it, while it is the Scottish Government's ruling that shoppers in indoor shopping malls must cover up, I often see people not wearing coverings as they move around the mall between the shops.
This report taken in conjunction with this seems to indicate little room for complacency about mask-wearing just for now, until other data emerges.
By the way, I'm not criticising anyone asthmatic for not wearing their mask. I truly am not. But I presume that asthmatic-suffering doctors, nurses, dental people etc, (eg, my severely asthmatic niece) all wear masks for many hours per working day simply to do their ordinary work. I'm not questioning how stressful it must feel for asthmatics unused to wearing a mask to have to do so. I'm sure there must be genuine exemptions for people with severe respiratory illness (eg, those who are on 15 hours of oxygen per day etc). But I really hope that not everyone with severe asthma is choosing not to wear a mask, speaking generally, when the normal course of their profession would dictate they should!
It's pointless having arguments between people who take opposite views on the relative importance of personal freedom of action vs rights of community. No doubt we would all say we want to best balance but we end up with quite entrenched disagreements.
I was not interested in arguing whether it would be right to tell those who cannot wear masks to say at home, but rather about the poorness of the current situation, because although I presume that were you in charge, no exception would be made to the rule of face masks in enclosed spaces, that is not what the UK Government has done. It has also specifically given no powers to shop personnel to enforce the rules, nor SFAIK has it taken any action against stores like Sainsbury's who have publicly stated that they are not going to enforce the rule.
What I object to is this type of situation that creates the atmosphere in which bullying vigilantes are enabled to feel good about their aggressions towards minorities who are exercising a right explicitly given by the law.
The point of my post is that in far and away the majority of situations, physical there is no impediment to breathing.
And what Boogie said.
I like this. I wish very much the Holy Spirit would see to just such a set of miracles, but I'm not holding my breath. Especially the one about Trump shutting up...
[considers...]
You reckon ten sprained fingers and a dislocated jaw ought to do it? Or would he just type with his toes?
Last night I ate at a restaurant (outside patio, people! sheesh
Oh sure, I support mask wearing being compulsory for all who can, but I was responding to the claim that shops needed specific powers to enforce it. Shops have the right to refuse service and ultimately it's up to staff working there whether they think the risks associated with challenging the maskless are worse than not doing so.
But the normal weighing of risks in retail is: will they shop here or not? Not, will my doorguard get physically assaulted?
Tell that to my sister when she worked nights at McDonalds.
What does that have to do with decisions made by the restaurant owner, unless perhaps not to open nights?
Your reply didn't have anything to do with the point I was making, why should mine with yours?
Sure, and that's perfectly reasonable. Are you suggesting that shops should be able to turn away people with disabilities that prevent them wearing a mask?
LambChopped: In a restaurant??? Where is that a law? We are trying to support local restaurants and in the probably 10 or so visits since mask-day, I've never seen a mask. How are you supposed to eat?
But in the UK, as I have already said, the LAW does not mandate masks for everyone anywhere. It's interesting that at the Snooker world championship, the (now re-admitted) spectators are not wearing masks except for a few. SFAIK the Crucible is an enclosed space, and one of the smaller venues, so many churches would be as large.
As to the issue of whether it is unreasonable to claim "extreme distress" at wearing a mask, we must be wary of thinking we understand what this could mean to a person with any degree of mental illness, we may co-exist with breathing difficulties.