I heard today that just over 17% of deaths attributed to Covid did not have serious underlying causes and the deceased died mainly of Covid..... From official satistics.
Are you sure you heard correctly? The ONS figures show that 77-78% of deaths mentioning Covid-19 have Covid-19 as the main or underlying cause. Source Where did the programme get its statistics from?
Are you sure you heard correctly? The ONS figures show that 77-78% of deaths mentioning Covid-19 have Covid-19 as the main or underlying cause. Source Where did the programme get its statistics from?
I assume they're only counting cases where people had no "underlying conditions" e.g. diabetes. Which is horrible ableist crap. Oh, and only counting people who have "covid 19" listed as the sole cause, rather than, say, "respiratory failure; covid 19". In other words, the sort of mendacious bullshit Farage excels at.
If the presenter is one of those who avoids modern tech such as a tablet or laptop, it could simply be that someone wrote out the ONS stats as "just over 77%" but was a bit sloppy and the first "7" looked too much like a "1" and it was read out - hence the statement "just over 17%". It's wrong, but could be an honest mistake.
Of course, it could also be support for adopting the practice from other parts of Europe of putting a bar across hand-written 7 to make it more clearly different from 1. Anyone want to suggest that to GB News ...
Are you sure you heard correctly? The ONS figures show that 77-78% of deaths mentioning Covid-19 have Covid-19 as the main or underlying cause. Source Where did the programme get its statistics from?
I assume they're only counting cases where people had no "underlying conditions" e.g. diabetes. Which is horrible ableist crap. Oh, and only counting people who have "covid 19" listed as the sole cause, rather than, say, "respiratory failure; covid 19". In other words, the sort of mendacious bullshit Farage excels at.
The ONS website outlines the procedure for defining "deaths due to covid19" and "deaths involving covid19", but at least with the time I have at the moment it's quite opaque about the difference. It looks like both are counted as covid19 deaths, with the 77-78% being the "deaths due to covid19" and the remainder "deaths involving covid19".
I think, if I've read that site right, a lay persons summary would be "deaths due to covid19" are people who would not have died at that time if they hadn't caught coronavirus, and "deaths involving covid19" are people who would have probably died even if they hadn't contracted coronavirus (or, possibly where the virus accelerated death by only a day or two). They seem to explicitly exclude prior covid19 conditions - eg: deaths where the deceased had recovered from Covid19, but it looks like that could include cases where long-covid has negatively impacted other medical conditions.
@Alan Cresswell FWIW my guess is that the "deaths involving covid19" category would include e.g. living with COPD or living with Type 2 diabetes, seen off by Covid-19.
Such people were living with COPD or Type 2 diabetes, and may have continued to live for some considerable time - years, even - had it not been for Covid-19.
Just because someone has a chronic illness does not necessarily mean that they are in imminent danger of death.
Such people were living with COPD or Type 2 diabetes, and may have continued to live for some considerable time - years, even - had it not been for Covid-19.
Just because someone has a chronic illness does not necessarily mean that they are in imminent danger of death.
Indeed. My maternal grandmother will be 90 this year and has had Type 2 diabetes for the last 30 (?) or so. It's likely to be the vascular dementia that gets her.
@Telford - please could you provide a link or citation regarding the statistics you mention? As others have said, there seems to be an error somewhere along the line.
FWIW, a visit to my local (very small) Co-Op today saw me wearing my mask, along with 2 or 3 other masked customers, but another 2 or 3 (plus the 2 checkout staff) had Nekkid Faces.
I think I'll continue to wear a mask, at least for the time being, as I do have a couple of chronic conditions which may or may not see me off in due course. Might as well stay on the safe side, despite what Johnson, Javid & Co say (and NHS chiefs are a bit concerned about the end of mandatory mask-wearing. Still, what do they know about it?).
I heard today that just over 17% of deaths attributed to Covid did not have serious underlying causes and the deceased died mainly of Covid..... From official satistics.
Source. The Farage show, GB News.
Hmm. This is a bit like saying a stab wound didn't kill someone because they had haemophilia. But it's a great example of how Farage and his ilk mislead without telling actual whoppers.
I heard today that just over 17% of deaths attributed to Covid did not have serious underlying causes and the deceased died mainly of Covid..... From official satistics.
Source. The Farage show, GB News.
Hmm. This is a bit like saying a stab wound didn't kill someone because they had haemophilia. But it's a great example of how Farage and his ilk mislead without telling actual whoppers.
Well, I've asked @Telford to provide a link to that figure because, as others have pointed out, there seems to be shome mishtake, shurely, as Private Eye would say...
I agree that it is possibly a good example (and there may be a genuine error somewhere) of Farage's style.
Of course, it could also be support for adopting the practice from other parts of Europe of putting a bar across hand-written 7 to make it more clearly different from 1. Anyone want to suggest that to GB News ...
I trained myself to write French sevens when I was 11, after having confused 1 and 7 one time too many on math homework. It's a practice I whole-heartedly recommend.
Of course, it could also be support for adopting the practice from other parts of Europe of putting a bar across hand-written 7 to make it more clearly different from 1. Anyone want to suggest that to GB News ...
I trained myself to write French sevens when I was 11, after having confused 1 and 7 one time too many on math homework. It's a practice I whole-heartedly recommend.
And if you're doing algebra a bar on your z saves a lot of bother.
Both of those sources would give about 15% of those who have died of Covid did not have any underlying health condition at all. Which is, of course, entirely consistent with everything that's been said about people with underlying health conditions being at much greater risk. And, thus supports the need to protect those who do have underlying health conditions - by, for example, wearing a mask (properly) wherever people with underlying health conditions may be present (eg: in shops, down the pub etc).
As others note, it also doesn't identify how many of those who had other conditions were living quite comfortably - which could include diabetes, asthma etc which are readily controlled, and where if people stop wearing masks they'll need to stay home and not enjoy the life they once had unless they're willing to take a big risk with their lives. Or, people who have conditions that got worse because they weren't able to get the treatment they needed because the health services were overwhelmed.
It's also still a lot of very healthy people dead who wouldn't be if not for Covid.
I heard today that just over 17% of deaths attributed to Covid did not have serious underlying causes and the deceased died mainly of Covid..... From official satistics.
Source. The Farage show, GB News.
Hmm. This is a bit like saying a stab wound didn't kill someone because they had haemophilia. But it's a great example of how Farage and his ilk mislead without telling actual whoppers.
Well, I've asked @Telford to provide a link to that figure because, as others have pointed out, there seems to be shome mishtake, shurely, as Private Eye would say...
I agree that it is possibly a good example (and there may be a genuine error somewhere) of Farage's style.
Boo to the new protocol for French schools. If a child tests positive, all the others do a home test. This is effectively much cheaper than doing saliva tests, but it's also horrible. Sticking a swab up the nose of a three year old is inhuman.
You then fill in a form on your honour to say it was negative. We did impale the child's brain, but I think it's safe to say a high proportion of parents are going to not do it and lie.
I heard today that just over 17% of deaths attributed to Covid did not have serious underlying causes and the deceased died mainly of Covid..... From official satistics.
Source. The Farage show, GB News.
Hmm. This is a bit like saying a stab wound didn't kill someone because they had haemophilia. But it's a great example of how Farage and his ilk mislead without telling actual whoppers.
Well, I've asked @Telford to provide a link to that figure because, as others have pointed out, there seems to be shome mishtake, shurely, as Private Eye would say...
I agree that it is possibly a good example (and there may be a genuine error somewhere) of Farage's style.
I told you where I got the information from.
Well, yes, but Mr. Farage, who I understand to front a TV show where he gives his opinions on contemporary events to which you refer, neither qualifies as a primary source, nor a terribly authoritative one. It's probably a step or two up from "this bloke I met in the pub told me ..." So when you tell us "Farage said X on his show", the immediate response is to ask where Farage got that information from, and whether he understood it and interpreted it correctly. Did Farage actually quote his source, or just assert the number?
@Darda provided a possible source for Farage's numbers, and @Alan Cresswell provided a reasonable interpretation of what those numbers actually mean.
And if you're doing algebra a bar on your z saves a lot of bother.
I started off doing algebra with cursive zs, which was fine until the point that I had algebraic equations containing both zs and zetas. (Yes, I know zeta and z look different, but with bad handwriting, there's scope for confusion.)
Similarly, I was taught to always write algebraic x in cursive - curved, like a backwards c and a forwards c joined together - to distinguish it from the multiplication symbol.
The surprising thing is that given the source of the information we then went on to try and figure out where that number might have come from. We're clearly fools, because anyone else would have said "oh, that's what Farage said. It must be false" and move on.
I think this discussion is still just about OK for All Saints, but I have the feeling it could career off to Purgatorial or even Hellish realms quite quickly. I think if you want to discuss the veracity or otherwise of Mr Farage's remarks this might not be quite the place to do so.
Shoving my hat back in its box for now. Sarasa All Saints Host
May I just say thank you to @Darda and @Alan Cresswell for answering my question, and explaining it?
Back to coping with Ye Plague, and it has been reported (I can't find the link right now ) that NHS chiefs are a bit concerned that mask-wearing, for example, is being relaxed too soon, and that it would be prudent for masks to remain mandatory in shops, public transport etc. for a while longer.
I wonder who to trust? The scientists and medics, or the government?
I wonder who to trust? The scientists and medics, or the government?
I'm intrigued by the idea that the government apparently no longer thinks it necessary for people with Covid to isolate themselves. Is Covid going to get magically less infectious in March? Or just stop killing people?
Johnson says that he will "trust the judgement of the British people" in regard to crowded areas. That's nonsense. My judgement can't make you put a mask on your face if we're in the same area, and I get the most protection from a mask when it's on your face.
If masks were mostly personal protection, then it would be reasonable to leave it up to individuals to manage their own risk. Problem is, masks are mostly for other people's protection.
I wonder who to trust? The scientists and medics, or the government?
I'm intrigued by the idea that the government apparently no longer thinks it necessary for people with Covid to isolate themselves. Is Covid going to get magically less infectious in March? Or just stop killing people?
Johnson says that he will "trust the judgement of the British people" in regard to crowded areas. That's nonsense. My judgement can't make you put a mask on your face if we're in the same area, and I get the most protection from a mask when it's on your face.
If masks were mostly personal protection, then it would be reasonable to leave it up to individuals to manage their own risk. Problem is, masks are mostly for other people's protection.
Yes, I think you're right. Our Prime Minister is so anxious to be seen to get things back to *normal* that he has, frankly, lost the plot (if he ever had it).
Political expediency is far more important to him than the avoidable deaths which may still occur.
My mother puts a bar across her 7s, and a little cap on her 1s. Our bank scanner thing sometimes reads them as 4s and 7s respectively.
The bank want me to move to online banking, where I would scan in cheques at home. Apparently this would "simplify" my life. I have pointed out that this would mean that my current two step procedure:
1. Wait till I have 3 or 4 cheques.
2. Take them to the bank and pay them in.
would become a four step procedure:
1. Wait till I have 3 or 4 cheques.
2. Separate them into two piles, those which include the figures 1 or 7, and those which don't.
3. Pay in the ones with neither a 1 nor a 7 online
4. Take the others to the bank and pay them in in person.
I do the cheque scan thing with my bank - I do it on the app on my mobile phone and part of it is putting in manually what the amount is and the phone cameras which snap the cheque are very good. You might be pleasantly surprised - and not having to go to the bank in these days of Covid is very handy.
My mum sent me the cheque for the full amount of what she wanted distributed to our lot at Xmas (the yoof have no idea about cheques and forget to cash them) and I then scanned the cheque using the phone app and distributed the dosh by bank transfer using the same app. It's definitely worth trying to see if the phone app experience is superior.
I heard today that just over 17% of deaths attributed to Covid did not have serious underlying causes and the deceased died mainly of Covid..... From official satistics.
Source. The Farage show, GB News.
Hmm. This is a bit like saying a stab wound didn't kill someone because they had haemophilia. But it's a great example of how Farage and his ilk mislead without telling actual whoppers.
Well, I've asked @Telford to provide a link to that figure because, as others have pointed out, there seems to be shome mishtake, shurely, as Private Eye would say...
I agree that it is possibly a good example (and there may be a genuine error somewhere) of Farage's style.
I told you where I got the information from.
Well, yes, but Mr. Farage, who I understand to front a TV show where he gives his opinions on contemporary events to which you refer, neither qualifies as a primary source, nor a terribly authoritative one. It's probably a step or two up from "this bloke I met in the pub told me ..." So when you tell us "Farage said X on his show", the immediate response is to ask where Farage got that information from, and whether he understood it and interpreted it correctly. Did Farage actually quote his source, or just assert the number?
@Darda provided a possible source for Farage's numbers, and @Alan Cresswell provided a reasonable interpretation of what those numbers actually mean.
So it looks as though his number is based on an ONS Freedom of Information request similar to the ones linked to above. The key word, I suspect, is ‘purely’ meaning that no other cause of death is listed.
Bear with me for a minute. Both I and my father (he’s nearly 90) live with mild asthma. The chances are that if either of us caught Covid and died from it asthma would also be listed as a cause of death. Similarly I have a friend who lives with heart damage. If he caught Covid and died his heart condition would probably be listed on the death certificate as well. The same applies to diabetes and other long term conditions or vulnerabilities. None of them would be ‘purely’ Covid deaths, though all of them in any meaningful sense would properly be described as ‘caused by Covid’. That’s one of the reasons why the true impact of the pandemic is best measured by excess deaths.
It seems as though Nigel Farage doesn’t really understand what he’s talking about.
So it looks as though his number is based on an ONS Freedom of Information request similar to the ones linked to above. The key word, I suspect, is ‘purely’ meaning that no other cause of death is listed.
Bear with me for a minute. Both I and my father (he’s nearly 90) live with mild asthma. The chances are that if either of us caught Covid and died from it asthma would also be listed as a cause of death. Similarly I have a friend who lives with heart damage. If he caught Covid and died his heart condition would probably be listed on the death certificate as well. The same applies to diabetes and other long term conditions or vulnerabilities. None of them would be ‘purely’ Covid deaths, though all of them in any meaningful sense would properly be described as ‘caused by Covid’. That’s one of the reasons why the true impact of the pandemic is best measured by excess deaths.
It seems as though Nigel Farage doesn’t really understand what he’s talking about.
Or does but doesn’t care because he's a bullshitter.
A day or two ago I half-heard something on the radio news that I haven't heard before. They were talking about the numbers of cases and deaths and said something like, "This includes X% of people for whom Covid was not the cause of death." I know for some time the language has been around people who died with, not of, the virus, but I haven't heard it spelt out in quite those terms before.
The BBC has reported recently only about the difference in the numbers. I’ll try to find an article at some point (I’m in the pub). Basically the new variant is so contagious that lots of people in hospital with it aren’t admitted for having it, I think it was a third a few weeks ago. So this will impact on whether they are dying with or because of covid. But it’s complicated as having covid may still be a contributing factor and having a general anaesthetic while having covid won’t be good for you.
I work on a covid ward and at the moment we have a wide range of patients with all sorts of things who were incidentally found to have covid as well at the time of admission but most have no symptoms of it. So they are counted in the covid figures but aren’t actually in hospital because of the covid.
NZ is now under a "traffic light" system to cope with covid. The idea, as far as understand it is that as the vaccination rate is higher and the main variant is omicron that we will no longer rely mainly on lockdowns, but will have a graded system of limiting the number of people gathered depending on the current rate of infection. So we have now moved to red because omicron is now in the community..
To be honest I missed the announcement about the ramifications today so will have to read tomorrow's news - I find I take information in better if I read, rather than hear it.
The one message I did get from the snatch I heard is that the PMs wedding will have to be postponed again, Weddings, understandably do seem to be superspreading events.
*Such is life!* was Ms Ardern's wry comment on the cancellation, but she did express her sympathy for everyone affected in adverse ways by the latest invasion.
I made my first trip to Tess Coe after the re-introduction of Plan A this very midday.
I was pleased to see that most customers were wearing masks, as advised by the notice outside the shop, but there were some customers, and staff, whose faces were Stark Naked.
At church, FatherInCharge is continuing to ask people to use hand sanitiser, and to respect those who wish to *socially distance*. He is recommending face-masks, but I'm not sure if he's going to carry on giving Communion in one kind only. Everyone seems to have become accustomed to just receiving the Host (wafer/bread), so, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Comments
None that I could see...
www.covidtests.gov
You've reminded me that I do, in fact, have a packet of yellow dusters on board - good thinking!
I only hope I don't have to hoist one (or, more likely, nail it to the mast).
Source. The Farage show, GB News.
I assume they're only counting cases where people had no "underlying conditions" e.g. diabetes. Which is horrible ableist crap. Oh, and only counting people who have "covid 19" listed as the sole cause, rather than, say, "respiratory failure; covid 19". In other words, the sort of mendacious bullshit Farage excels at.
Of course, it could also be support for adopting the practice from other parts of Europe of putting a bar across hand-written 7 to make it more clearly different from 1. Anyone want to suggest that to GB News ...
I think, if I've read that site right, a lay persons summary would be "deaths due to covid19" are people who would not have died at that time if they hadn't caught coronavirus, and "deaths involving covid19" are people who would have probably died even if they hadn't contracted coronavirus (or, possibly where the virus accelerated death by only a day or two). They seem to explicitly exclude prior covid19 conditions - eg: deaths where the deceased had recovered from Covid19, but it looks like that could include cases where long-covid has negatively impacted other medical conditions.
YMMV.
The same principle applies to anything the government says, too, as far as I am concerned - cynical and world-weary git that I am...
Such people were living with COPD or Type 2 diabetes, and may have continued to live for some considerable time - years, even - had it not been for Covid-19.
Just because someone has a chronic illness does not necessarily mean that they are in imminent danger of death.
Indeed. My maternal grandmother will be 90 this year and has had Type 2 diabetes for the last 30 (?) or so. It's likely to be the vascular dementia that gets her.
FWIW, a visit to my local (very small) Co-Op today saw me wearing my mask, along with 2 or 3 other masked customers, but another 2 or 3 (plus the 2 checkout staff) had Nekkid Faces.
I think I'll continue to wear a mask, at least for the time being, as I do have a couple of chronic conditions which may or may not see me off in due course. Might as well stay on the safe side, despite what Johnson, Javid & Co say (and NHS chiefs are a bit concerned about the end of mandatory mask-wearing. Still, what do they know about it?).
Hmm. This is a bit like saying a stab wound didn't kill someone because they had haemophilia. But it's a great example of how Farage and his ilk mislead without telling actual whoppers.
Well, I've asked @Telford to provide a link to that figure because, as others have pointed out, there seems to be shome mishtake, shurely, as Private Eye would say...
I agree that it is possibly a good example (and there may be a genuine error somewhere) of Farage's style.
I trained myself to write French sevens when I was 11, after having confused 1 and 7 one time too many on math homework. It's a practice I whole-heartedly recommend.
And if you're doing algebra a bar on your z saves a lot of bother.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/covid19deathsandautopsiesfeb2020todec2021
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsfromcovid19withnootherunderlyingcauses?s=09
As others note, it also doesn't identify how many of those who had other conditions were living quite comfortably - which could include diabetes, asthma etc which are readily controlled, and where if people stop wearing masks they'll need to stay home and not enjoy the life they once had unless they're willing to take a big risk with their lives. Or, people who have conditions that got worse because they weren't able to get the treatment they needed because the health services were overwhelmed.
It's also still a lot of very healthy people dead who wouldn't be if not for Covid.
I told you where I got the information from.
You then fill in a form on your honour to say it was negative. We did impale the child's brain, but I think it's safe to say a high proportion of parents are going to not do it and lie.
Well, yes, but Mr. Farage, who I understand to front a TV show where he gives his opinions on contemporary events to which you refer, neither qualifies as a primary source, nor a terribly authoritative one. It's probably a step or two up from "this bloke I met in the pub told me ..." So when you tell us "Farage said X on his show", the immediate response is to ask where Farage got that information from, and whether he understood it and interpreted it correctly. Did Farage actually quote his source, or just assert the number?
@Darda provided a possible source for Farage's numbers, and @Alan Cresswell provided a reasonable interpretation of what those numbers actually mean.
I started off doing algebra with cursive zs, which was fine until the point that I had algebraic equations containing both zs and zetas. (Yes, I know zeta and z look different, but with bad handwriting, there's scope for confusion.)
Similarly, I was taught to always write algebraic x in cursive - curved, like a backwards c and a forwards c joined together - to distinguish it from the multiplication symbol.
I think this discussion is still just about OK for All Saints, but I have the feeling it could career off to Purgatorial or even Hellish realms quite quickly. I think if you want to discuss the veracity or otherwise of Mr Farage's remarks this might not be quite the place to do so.
Shoving my hat back in its box for now.
Sarasa All Saints Host
Back to coping with Ye Plague, and it has been reported (I can't find the link right now
I wonder who to trust? The scientists and medics, or the government?
I'm intrigued by the idea that the government apparently no longer thinks it necessary for people with Covid to isolate themselves. Is Covid going to get magically less infectious in March? Or just stop killing people?
Johnson says that he will "trust the judgement of the British people" in regard to crowded areas. That's nonsense. My judgement can't make you put a mask on your face if we're in the same area, and I get the most protection from a mask when it's on your face.
If masks were mostly personal protection, then it would be reasonable to leave it up to individuals to manage their own risk. Problem is, masks are mostly for other people's protection.
Yes, I think you're right. Our Prime Minister is so anxious to be seen to get things back to *normal* that he has, frankly, lost the plot (if he ever had it).
Political expediency is far more important to him than the avoidable deaths which may still occur.
The bank want me to move to online banking, where I would scan in cheques at home. Apparently this would "simplify" my life. I have pointed out that this would mean that my current two step procedure:
1. Wait till I have 3 or 4 cheques.
2. Take them to the bank and pay them in.
would become a four step procedure:
1. Wait till I have 3 or 4 cheques.
2. Separate them into two piles, those which include the figures 1 or 7, and those which don't.
3. Pay in the ones with neither a 1 nor a 7 online
4. Take the others to the bank and pay them in in person.
Simples...
My mum sent me the cheque for the full amount of what she wanted distributed to our lot at Xmas (the yoof have no idea about cheques and forget to cash them) and I then scanned the cheque using the phone app and distributed the dosh by bank transfer using the same app. It's definitely worth trying to see if the phone app experience is superior.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90eDxJV_9k
@Telford - I don't think it should take more than one host to point out that the Farage tangent has run its course.
Thank you.
Piglet, AS host
Bear with me for a minute. Both I and my father (he’s nearly 90) live with mild asthma. The chances are that if either of us caught Covid and died from it asthma would also be listed as a cause of death. Similarly I have a friend who lives with heart damage. If he caught Covid and died his heart condition would probably be listed on the death certificate as well. The same applies to diabetes and other long term conditions or vulnerabilities. None of them would be ‘purely’ Covid deaths, though all of them in any meaningful sense would properly be described as ‘caused by Covid’. That’s one of the reasons why the true impact of the pandemic is best measured by excess deaths.
It seems as though Nigel Farage doesn’t really understand what he’s talking about.
Or does but doesn’t care because he's a bullshitter.
Perhaps one day some reasonable conclusion might be reached IYSWIM, but that might have to wait until the pandemic goes away...if it ever does...
An article that mentions that two weeks ago approximately a third of people in covid beds in England were in hospital for something else https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59862568
To be honest I missed the announcement about the ramifications today so will have to read tomorrow's news - I find I take information in better if I read, rather than hear it.
The one message I did get from the snatch I heard is that the PMs wedding will have to be postponed again, Weddings, understandably do seem to be superspreading events.
I was pleased to see that most customers were wearing masks, as advised by the notice outside the shop, but there were some customers, and staff, whose faces were Stark Naked.
At church, FatherInCharge is continuing to ask people to use hand sanitiser, and to respect those who wish to *socially distance*. He is recommending face-masks, but I'm not sure if he's going to carry on giving Communion in one kind only. Everyone seems to have become accustomed to just receiving the Host (wafer/bread), so, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!