That seems more disanalogous to me. It isn’t actually possible for other posters to block your post on the Ship - they can post their contrary views, but your post remains perfectly legible and visible, doesn’t it?
Visible in the trivial sense, perhaps, but if your post is followed by two or more pages of mutual back-slapping from the usual suspects, it's easy for it to get lost.
I don’t think it’s trivial - it’s visible in exactly the sense that Marvin was claiming it was not. No one is scribbling over the letters or blocking it from view, they’re just putting their own posts along side. That seems to me an important distinction.
The ignored issue is very hard to gauge. My feeling is that the majority of my posts sink without trace, and that stings a bit when I've said something I think is deeply insightful and no one reacts. @mousethief and @Lamb Chopped, you are two posters I always take seriously, because you come at issues thoughtfully but from a different angle to me. I would have thought you were the last people to be ignored, but I believe you when you say you feel that way.
Thank you @Robert Armin. I find your posts are well thought out and often I learn from them. I'd say that other than @Lamb Chopped, you and @Nick Tamen are the posters whose avatars I am most pleased to see in a thread.
I'm flattered. Genuinely. What a great start to the day. (Where is the old blushing emoji?)
The ignored issue is very hard to gauge. My feeling is that the majority of my posts sink without trace, and that stings a bit when I've said something I think is deeply insightful and no one reacts. @mousethief and @Lamb Chopped, you are two posters I always take seriously, because you come at issues thoughtfully but from a different angle to me. I would have thought you were the last people to be ignored, but I believe you when you say you feel that way.
Thank you @Robert Armin. I find your posts are well thought out and often I learn from them. I'd say that other than @Lamb Chopped, you and @Nick Tamen are the posters whose avatars I am most pleased to see in a thread.
The interesting question for this thread is whether this ship is a better place if it's a left-wing echo chamber. I don't think it is. If we don't want the ship to become a left-wing echo chamber, we should take care not to accidentally create one.)
That is indeed the question. And I'd agree with your answer.
But seems to me that there are three possible ways in which someone might reasonably disagree.
1) Some might prefer a vessel that lists to the left, find it a more comfortable place.
2) Some might deny any cause-effect relationship between anything that they're doing and the level of diversity of view on board.
3) Some might think this relatively unimportant compared with their own concerns, and take the view that if this happens, so be it; it's not what really matters.
Freedom of speech is one such concern. And the feelings of "protected groups" is another.
What I think we need is a clearer understanding of where the line is between politely expressing a valid opinion (a reasonable exercise of free speech) and making holders of contrary views feel unwelcome (invalidating opposing views).
Which ideally gets boiled down into a pithy summary and included in one of the 10 commandments.
At some point, no matter the internal variance, one owns the direction of one's chosen group. By remaining in the group, one puts one's own stamp on the behaviour. One can be against the policies of one's group, but if those policies show no signs of changing or the harm caused will precede change, then one shares the responsibility for those policies. It is why political groups exist, to wield collective power. With collective power comes collective responsibility.
You keep saying things like this. And every time you do, I keep feeling there's a lack of insight into human psychology and sense of belonging.
You mistake understanding with accepting that as an excuse.
How about you engage with the other half of the post where I asked you a question? Have you ever left a group because you could no longer associate with it? How hard was it for you?
Because I'd really like to know whether you have any practical experience on this to back up your pronouncements on how everyone else has some kind of obligation to leave a group in order to not be seen as approving everything that the group is doing.
Having a sense of belonging making it difficult to break an association doesn't change the logic of what I'm saying. A lot of life involves making such choices, that they are difficult doesn't change that.
Agreed. What it does change is the appropriateness of glibly telling other people they ought to cut their ties in order to satisfy you. In order to prevent you telling them that they will be seen to endorse viewpoints by guilt of association.
I am not glib when I talk about responsibility. I think the worst possibly accurate application would be harsh. And we have a lot more guilt by association than we'd like to admit.
It mightn't be fair, it mightn't be easy, but it is life.
...did you just openly describe your own personal unfairness to people as "that's life"?
Funny. I hadn't realised that your argument about how people had to take responsibility for groups they were a part of could be flipped so that you personally didn't have to take responsibility for your own personal behaviour.
My personal unfairness? Personal? Strange.
I'm responsible for my own behaviour, nothing I've said suggests otherwise.
Not being around POC/BAME is often used as an excuse for misspeaking. The problem is, that a lot of the misspeak is based on treating a group as less than/other than. Nigger brown is one example. Is there a Honky White or Peckerwood Pink in the colour palette?
Why did you quote someone who speaks plainly about his conscious struggle to say things that people of color will hear as respectful and then go straight to the n-word? He's trying to be a decent human being and you're talking about people who are furthest from such a thing.
Not the furthest thing. Using words like that, the existence of golliwogs, etc. are not only by people who hate. They are examples of how decent people say and do things that are essentially racist. Most don't even think about it and that is part of the problem.
If someone admits they’re unsure what’s acceptable because their community isn’t particularly diverse - which is entirely possible - but says they’re willing to learn then surely it’s better to see how they react to a learning opportunity / being corrected before “calling them out”. (A term that has no meaning in most cultures). You risk alienating a potential ally.
The colour examples are hideously out-dated btw. A more current one would be how flesh is often used in clothing and make-up ranges to mean “white”. It’s better than it was, but still not where it needs to be.
Not being around POC/BAME is often used as an excuse for misspeaking. The problem is, that a lot of the misspeak is based on treating a group as less than/other than. Nigger brown is one example. Is there a Honky White or Peckerwood Pink in the colour palette?
Why did you quote someone who speaks plainly about his conscious struggle to say things that people of color will hear as respectful and then go straight to the n-word? He's trying to be a decent human being and you're talking about people who are furthest from such a thing.
Not the furthest thing. Using words like that, the existence of golliwogs, etc. are not only by people who hate. They are examples of how decent people say and do things that are essentially racist. Most don't even think about it and that is part of the problem.
If someone admits they’re unsure what’s acceptable because their community isn’t particularly diverse - which is entirely possible - but says they’re willing to learn then surely it’s better to see how they react to a learning opportunity / being corrected before “calling them out”. (A term that has no meaning in most cultures). You risk alienating a potential ally.
The colour examples are hideously out-dated btw. A more current one would be how flesh is often used in clothing and make-up ranges to mean “white”. It’s better than it was, but still not where it needs to be.
This makes me think of the paint range produced by Games Workshop, who never had a single "flesh" tone, but Elf, Dwarf, Bronzed and Dark flesh paints (I think they've now renamed them in order to trademark the names).
The ignored issue is very hard to gauge. My feeling is that the majority of my posts sink without trace, and that stings a bit when I've said something I think is deeply insightful and no one reacts. @mousethief and @Lamb Chopped, you are two posters I always take seriously, because you come at issues thoughtfully but from a different angle to me. I would have thought you were the last people to be ignored, but I believe you when you say you feel that way.
Thank you @Robert Armin. I find your posts are well thought out and often I learn from them. I'd say that other than @Lamb Chopped, you and @Nick Tamen are the posters whose avatars I am most pleased to see in a thread.
I'm flattered. Genuinely. What a great start to the day. (Where is the old blushing emoji?)
Me too. Very kind on what's been a pretty crappy day so far. Thank you.
You may not get replies but you aren't ignored. I am too lightweight to post in Kerygmania but I do read there and find much food for thought. To see @Lamb Chopped@mousethief or @WHyatt 's name on a post makes it a Must Read.
But how can I know that if no one responds? As I said above, the phenomenological aspects of being silently admired and being ignored are identical.
Like @Robert Armin I find it surprising that a poster like you feels ignored; and I am unconvinced people even want to hear from someone like me in Kerygmania. I feel I can hold my own when sparring verses with you in the Circus (and what fun that was - I go back to it from time to time when I need a smile) but I'm a bit of a pipsqueak when it comes to Kerygmania matters. @Lamb Chopped jokes about people being stunned by the freaking awesomeness of her posts, but there's an aspect of that with the learnedness, coherency and articulate nature of some of the posts there. Some of the finest minds I know are here on the Ship. A lot of them are Kerygmania posters.
I wish you would. If for no other reason than that those of us who run on at the mouth need someone to set us going. I don't usually start Kerygmania threads because the really interesting topics never occur to me--if it were left up to me, we'd have nothing but threads like "Why did Obadiah have it in for Edom?" and the like. Which would bore the crap out of everybody.
In relation to Kerygmania, our intention was always to have a forum where everyone can contribute (and, that's more than just ask questions). The problem is that we find that there are some individuals who have a significant academic background in Biblical interpretation and related fields, or are simply more than happy to run-off their mouth and sound very informed, who then come across as though they have the answers. We then run into a spiral where it ends up feeling like a space for those who know their Greek and Hebrew to tell everyone else what the text under discussion means. It's a very difficult dynamic to counter and give everyone the confidence that their opinions are welcome. It's actually quite natural that those with the expertise get deference (eg: we all appreciate the contributions from @alienfromzog on the coronavirus thread in Purgatory explaining the science of how the virus replicates and how vaccines would work), but Kerygmania is a forum where there's a group with expertise relevant to the entire forum. There's a challenge for the regulars in Kerygmania to avoid being seen as dismissive of questions and opinions from others that might appear trivial (because, those offering them probably don't see them as trivial, otherwise why offer them) and post in a style more accessible to others, but there's little apparent need to face that challenge unless non-regular contributors jump in and post there.
In relation to Kerygmania, our intention was always to have a forum where everyone can contribute (and, that's more than just ask questions). The problem is that we find that there are some individuals who have a significant academic background in Biblical interpretation and related fields, or are simply more than happy to run-off their mouth and sound very informed, who then come across as though they have the answers. We then run into a spiral where it ends up feeling like a space for those who know their Greek and Hebrew to tell everyone else what the text under discussion means. It's a very difficult dynamic to counter and give everyone the confidence that their opinions are welcome. It's actually quite natural that those with the expertise get deference (eg: we all appreciate the contributions from @alienfromzog on the coronavirus thread in Purgatory explaining the science of how the virus replicates and how vaccines would work), but Kerygmania is a forum where there's a group with expertise relevant to the entire forum. There's a challenge for the regulars in Kerygmania to avoid being seen as dismissive of questions and opinions from others that might appear trivial (because, those offering them probably don't see them as trivial, otherwise why offer them) and post in a style more accessible to others, but there's little apparent need to face that challenge unless non-regular contributors jump in and post there.
And non-regulars aren't going to do so in great numbers if they're ignored. Just sayin'.
In relation to Kerygmania, our intention was always to have a forum where everyone can contribute (and, that's more than just ask questions). The problem is that we find that there are some individuals who have a significant academic background in Biblical interpretation and related fields, or are simply more than happy to run-off their mouth and sound very informed, who then come across as though they have the answers. We then run into a spiral where it ends up feeling like a space for those who know their Greek and Hebrew to tell everyone else what the text under discussion means. It's a very difficult dynamic to counter and give everyone the confidence that their opinions are welcome. It's actually quite natural that those with the expertise get deference (eg: we all appreciate the contributions from @alienfromzog on the coronavirus thread in Purgatory explaining the science of how the virus replicates and how vaccines would work), but Kerygmania is a forum where there's a group with expertise relevant to the entire forum. There's a challenge for the regulars in Kerygmania to avoid being seen as dismissive of questions and opinions from others that might appear trivial (because, those offering them probably don't see them as trivial, otherwise why offer them) and post in a style more accessible to others, but there's little apparent need to face that challenge unless non-regular contributors jump in and post there.
And non-regulars aren't going to do so in great numbers if they're ignored. Just sayin'.
As someone who reads every single day and only occasionally posts and when I do is often not responded to (Apart from in All Saints, where we are all great at responding to one another), I think this bears consideration.
I do not believe I am ignored but I know myself well enough to know that I often need drawing out before I can really contribute.
This could be very tedious for Shipmates raring to launch into debate and I have no expectation of this changing, why should it?
But the teacher in me knows that I could have missed some real pearls if I hadn't taken the time to draw out the quieter members of the classes I taught.
The Ship is not a classroom but perhaps there's a place for communal learning that involves helping others to express themselves?
Or perhaps not!
@Lamb Chopped: "Why did Obadiah have it in for Edom?"
This reminds me of the old joke. How long did Cain hate his brother?
For as long as he was Abel.
That was ancient when you and I were young. I hope you had permission to take it out of the nursing home.
I've been around for many years. Many, many years. Many years, many, many years....
From what you've said in the past, I think that I am a few years older than you. I need to say that, as any observer may well not realise that Madame and I are over 53.
In relation to Kerygmania, our intention was always to have a forum where everyone can contribute (and, that's more than just ask questions). The problem is that we find that there are some individuals who have a significant academic background in Biblical interpretation and related fields, or are simply more than happy to run-off their mouth and sound very informed, who then come across as though they have the answers. We then run into a spiral where it ends up feeling like a space for those who know their Greek and Hebrew to tell everyone else what the text under discussion means. It's a very difficult dynamic to counter and give everyone the confidence that their opinions are welcome. It's actually quite natural that those with the expertise get deference (eg: we all appreciate the contributions from @alienfromzog on the coronavirus thread in Purgatory explaining the science of how the virus replicates and how vaccines would work), but Kerygmania is a forum where there's a group with expertise relevant to the entire forum. There's a challenge for the regulars in Kerygmania to avoid being seen as dismissive of questions and opinions from others that might appear trivial (because, those offering them probably don't see them as trivial, otherwise why offer them) and post in a style more accessible to others, but there's little apparent need to face that challenge unless non-regular contributors jump in and post there.
And non-regulars aren't going to do so in great numbers if they're ignored. Just sayin'.
As someone who reads every single day and only occasionally posts and when I do is often not responded to (Apart from in All Saints, where we are all great at responding to one another), I think this bears consideration.
I do not believe I am ignored but I know myself well enough to know that I often need drawing out before I can really contribute.
This could be very tedious for Shipmates raring to launch into debate and I have no expectation of this changing, why should it?
But the teacher in me knows that I could have missed some real pearls if I hadn't taken the time to draw out the quieter members of the classes I taught.
The Ship is not a classroom but perhaps there's a place for communal learning that involves helping others to express themselves?
Or perhaps not!
@Lamb Chopped: "Why did Obadiah have it in for Edom?"
This reminds me of the old joke. How long did Cain hate his brother?
For as long as he was Abel.
That was ancient when you and I were young. I hope you had permission to take it out of the nursing home.
I've been around for many years. Many, many years. Many years, many, many years....
From what you've said in the past, I think that I am a few years older than you. I need to say that, as any observer may well not realise that Madame and I are over 53.
FWIW as a fairly long-term shipmate, I never recall a time when the Ship was not left-of-centre, and internationalist, ergo pro-EU. Most of which I am. But not all.
What has changed for me is that the Ship has become much more focused in on politics, which is understandable due to the seismic shifts cause by Brexit and Trump. So the inherent left-wing bias has come more to the fore, than it did when we spent lots of time arguing Trinitarianism with squiggleAndrew, or loads of stuff with IngoB.
@Lamb Chopped: "Why did Obadiah have it in for Edom?"
This reminds me of the old joke. How long did Cain hate his brother?
For as long as he was Abel.
That was ancient when you and I were young. I hope you had permission to take it out of the nursing home.
I've been around for many years. Many, many years. Many years, many, many years....
From what you've said in the past, I think that I am a few years older than you. I need to say that, as any observer may well not realise that Madame and I are over 53.
@Lamb Chopped: "Why did Obadiah have it in for Edom?"
This reminds me of the old joke. How long did Cain hate his brother?
For as long as he was Abel.
That was ancient when you and I were young. I hope you had permission to take it out of the nursing home.
I've been around for many years. Many, many years. Many years, many, many years....
From what you've said in the past, I think that I am a few years older than you. I need to say that, as any observer may well not realise that Madame and I are over 53.
I'm 60 now (and therefore in my eighth decade).
I would have said 7th, but Orfeo has beaten me. I shall leave it by saying again that Madame and I are over 53, difficult though it be for many observers to realise that.
So the inherent left-wing bias has come more to the fore, than it did when we spent lots of time arguing Trinitarianism with squiggleAndrew, or loads of stuff with IngoB.
I joined the Ship in 2002. Back then creative hilarity ran through all sections and many threads....even Hell, even politics. I think we've lost that 😪
If I may shift focus. At the communion rail, we all stand together and I invite fully I disagree with many of my fellow communicants. I disagree with many of you in the same spirit.
'And in my walks it seems to me
That the glory of God is courtesy.'
(I can't remember if that was Chesterton of Belloc, of all people. Chesterbelloc, anyway.)
It seems to me that there's been a lot more irritability since lock down started.
This virus situation has likely made things worse, but the tone of the Ship has been in decline for some time, IMO. Likely mirroring the general frustrations in the rest of people's lives.
Comments
And there’s blush
That is indeed the question. And I'd agree with your answer.
But seems to me that there are three possible ways in which someone might reasonably disagree.
1) Some might prefer a vessel that lists to the left, find it a more comfortable place.
2) Some might deny any cause-effect relationship between anything that they're doing and the level of diversity of view on board.
3) Some might think this relatively unimportant compared with their own concerns, and take the view that if this happens, so be it; it's not what really matters.
Freedom of speech is one such concern. And the feelings of "protected groups" is another.
What I think we need is a clearer understanding of where the line is between politely expressing a valid opinion (a reasonable exercise of free speech) and making holders of contrary views feel unwelcome (invalidating opposing views).
Which ideally gets boiled down into a pithy summary and included in one of the 10 commandments.
I'm responsible for my own behaviour, nothing I've said suggests otherwise.
If someone admits they’re unsure what’s acceptable because their community isn’t particularly diverse - which is entirely possible - but says they’re willing to learn then surely it’s better to see how they react to a learning opportunity / being corrected before “calling them out”. (A term that has no meaning in most cultures). You risk alienating a potential ally.
The colour examples are hideously out-dated btw. A more current one would be how flesh is often used in clothing and make-up ranges to mean “white”. It’s better than it was, but still not where it needs to be.
This makes me think of the paint range produced by Games Workshop, who never had a single "flesh" tone, but Elf, Dwarf, Bronzed and Dark flesh paints (I think they've now renamed them in order to trademark the names).
Me too. Very kind on what's been a pretty crappy day so far. Thank you.
No, but it might help a little. I can only control what I do.
Like @Robert Armin I find it surprising that a poster like you feels ignored; and I am unconvinced people even want to hear from someone like me in Kerygmania. I feel I can hold my own when sparring verses with you in the Circus (and what fun that was - I go back to it from time to time when I need a smile) but I'm a bit of a pipsqueak when it comes to Kerygmania matters. @Lamb Chopped jokes about people being stunned by the freaking awesomeness of her posts, but there's an aspect of that with the learnedness, coherency and articulate nature of some of the posts there. Some of the finest minds I know are here on the Ship. A lot of them are Kerygmania posters.
This reminds me of the old joke. How long did Cain hate his brother?
For as long as he was Abel.
And non-regulars aren't going to do so in great numbers if they're ignored. Just sayin'.
That was ancient when you and I were young. I hope you had permission to take it out of the nursing home.
As someone who reads every single day and only occasionally posts and when I do is often not responded to (Apart from in All Saints, where we are all great at responding to one another), I think this bears consideration.
I do not believe I am ignored but I know myself well enough to know that I often need drawing out before I can really contribute.
This could be very tedious for Shipmates raring to launch into debate and I have no expectation of this changing, why should it?
But the teacher in me knows that I could have missed some real pearls if I hadn't taken the time to draw out the quieter members of the classes I taught.
The Ship is not a classroom but perhaps there's a place for communal learning that involves helping others to express themselves?
Or perhaps not!
I've been around for many years. Many, many years. Many years, many, many years....
From what you've said in the past, I think that I am a few years older than you. I need to say that, as any observer may well not realise that Madame and I are over 53.
This is a good point, thank you @MrsBeaky
I'm 60 now (and therefore in my eighth decade).
What has changed for me is that the Ship has become much more focused in on politics, which is understandable due to the seismic shifts cause by Brexit and Trump. So the inherent left-wing bias has come more to the fore, than it did when we spent lots of time arguing Trinitarianism with squiggleAndrew, or loads of stuff with IngoB.
Seventh.
I would have said 7th, but Orfeo has beaten me. I shall leave it by saying again that Madame and I are over 53, difficult though it be for many observers to realise that.
I think you're into something
Oh God, @Lamb Chopped, what have you gotten into now?
Trouble, as always! (the wine fridge, at the mo)
L'chayim!
As has been said before, everything fell apart when Bowie died.
Ah, but we never got to try that chaos did we? We got Strong and Stable instead.
That the glory of God is courtesy.'
(I can't remember if that was Chesterton of Belloc, of all people. Chesterbelloc, anyway.)