Purgatory : The Phenomenon of the Trump Cult
Barnabas62
Shipmate, Host Emeritus
Here is the waiver one has to agree to in order to complete the online registration form for Trump's Tulsa rally:
By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury.
If there's one thing Trump always makes sure, it's that someone else is holding the bag when it comes to liability.
I'm sure this triggered quite a lot of thoughts, but the one uppermost in my mind is what keeps the loyalists loyal? By any standards this is self serving. The rally itself creates a new inherent risk, the fact that there is a risk is freely acknowledged, liability for Trump is excluded. Yet I expect loads to turn up to the rally! "We'll die for you, Donald!".
We've discussed this before on the big tent thread. I thought in view of the present circumstances and the upcoming election, it might be worth considering the reasons for the durability of the Trump cult, despite the evidence that their idol has feet of clay. And if it is possible to have constructive dialogue with its members? Whether you are a presidential candidate or a citizen? I scratch my head over these questions.
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Secondly, in answer to the question about whether it is possible to have constructive dialogue with the cult's members, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it is.
Re dialogue, Bishop's Finger, that's one of the headscratches for me. If we were talking about a religious cult, what has been attempted with some degree of success is some form of "deprogramming", either for those who have escaped as a result of disillusionment but still live with their confusion, or those who have been rescued. But deprogramming is controversial.
Lamb Chopped has talked about conversations she has had with people she knows. Maybe other Shipmates have friends or family members who have had conversations? I've seen a couple of TV programmes where the interviewer just asked questions and listened without judgment.
Its easy to say you'll die for someone of you're pretty sure you won't have to.
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori (It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country), which, it is said, he wrote after being given another flask of fine wine...
But...I'm almost sure I've seen news reports quoted, where Trumpians have actually said that they would die for him. I hope my memory is incorrect.
Patriotism may indeed be the last refuge of some scoundrels but it doesn't require you to follow a scoundrel!
Anyway, I'd best leave this thread for a while for others, much though the questions intrigue me.
I had to have it corrected, or I wouldn't have been able to sleep...
ISTM that MAGA is a cry to keep white privilege. Trump is the poster boy for getting what you have not earned and don't deserve. That's not a bug -- it's a feature for some folks. In fairness, my Christianity springs in large measure from the hope for unmerited favor, so I guess I have little ground for self-righteousness here.
Which poet Wilfred Owen called "the old lie". He was talking about WWI but his words seem uncannily to describe the last throes of COVID-19.
Tom, I think racism is a factor in the cult. Not all patriots are racists. Some racists wrap themselves in the flag as their justification. Mind you, one flag they use makes things a lot clearer.
Trump's dogwhistles are not subtle but may attract several demographic groups.
But @tclune may be right about keeping the white privilege thing...
OTOH I don't know what you do about people who are so far down the rabbit hole that nothing will dissuade them (including the risk of their own death).
On a related point,the photo of Trump embracing the star-spangled banner looked dsistinctly odd, not to say creepy, to people East of the pond. How did it play Stateside? How could anyone take it seriously?
Yes, it's at least a small sign of hope that there are people who regret their vote, and have seen sense.
As for the others, well, if they're willing to catch Covid-19, and die for Trump (or America), that might be evolution in action...
Do you have a link? Apologies if I missed it on another thread...
An air of total confidence, grandiosity, sewing confusion and fear, a demand for absolute loyalty. Using alternative ‘facts’ and realities. Playing to tribal tendencies. Gaslighting.
The fawning of his very first cabinet meeting looked far more like a cultish ceremony than anything approaching a serious meeting. “We thank you for the opportunity and blessing to serve your agenda.” Each outdoing the other in their praise of the Great Leader. It was an unbelievable, sickening, sight.
Maybe the office of president has become so ‘great’ that it’s wrong to question him? He calls even the mildest of press questions ‘nasty’.
The only antidotes, imo, are education, critical thinking and authenticity. But, until those closest to him utilise these, there won’t be much hope of deposing him and his cult.
I doubt if the cult would long survive him, and he is, after all, an old, obese man. Not a god, whatever he or his toadies and lickspittles might think.
The destruction of American democracy at his and his enablers' hands would mean someone else would install him/herself as the next autocrat. The Trump cult will have lasting devastating results if it is not put down in November.
Jordan Klepper Vs. Trump Supporters on youtube is either funny or depressing (or both). Another Trump term on the way?
I think not, or otherwise it would be an insult to next Tuesdays...
Gross, indeed. Quite unnerving. The man is totally bonkers.
:vomit emoji:
I watched the video with the sound off, and it looked like he was in a dodgy movie embracing his mistress.
I see he has now magnanimously moved the rally back a day.
I had to read that three times before I got it. And then I laughed! And then felt Hostly guilt!! Since it would turn it into a Hell thread title .....
Here is a link to the Post story.
I would not be surprised if after Trump steps down from the office, she walks away from him.
From the POV of this thread, I suspect the feet of clay are safe. The UK Guardian report suggests that not only does she know which side her bread is buttered on, she's happy to do a bit of buttering herself. (Short version: she's happy to make money from his time in office). No doubt Melania could do him a lot of damage with cult supporters. But I'd be surprised if it happens.
I kind of feel the same about the possible revelations in the Bolton book. It will be a tease.
Judging by religious cults of the past and present, veneration of The Leader will withstand a lot of 'feet of clay' evidence. Maybe there is a drip drip drip effect?
Now if Fox News turned on him, that might be something. I thought Shepard Smith was a pretty honest journalist but he left. I think Chris Wallace is OK. The sycophantic talking heads are the issue there. A lot of his loyal supporters are Fox News regulars, regarding all else as fake news.
As Bishop's Finger said early on, there's not much evidence of the value of comstructive engagement. Maybe that applies particularly to the racists? There may be drip drip drip scope with the others.
I think if I were a Biden strategist I would be looking to see the best way to shave a few percentage points off the cult vote without damaging Biden's existing support. I think some of the elderly cult supporters are walking away because Trump's open up America strategy puts them in greater virus risk. They know there is no hoax here. People they know will have died.
That, exactly, is my big worry; I'm more scared of the people who fall for Trump than Trump himself. However, I don't know my right-wing nut-jobs as well as I should. If Trump loses, who will the party coalesce around next? How much influence will those who supported him to the end have in the GOP in 2021-2024?
The fear I have seen suggested is Tom Cotton, who appears to be easily as awful as Trump in terms of his views while maintaining the visage of a human being (unlike, say, Ted Cruz who tries and fails to look human).
Try The Parable of the Old Man and the Young also by Owen, with the last couplet:
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
We studied that 42 years ago when I was at High School and it still send shivers down my spine.
I can't remember when I first came across it.. Probably about 20 years before you did. For me, it's the number one poem of the First War. Completely understand the shivers down the spine. A priest read it at a Remembrance Day service at St Sanity a few years ago. Given the general mood at such services, he's lucky to be still alive.
I don't watch Fox News, but I did put myself through the experience for about a month. I also listened to a few of their podcasts, one was Dana Perino, George WH Bush's Press Secretary. Her show followed the friendly banter format,with a male co-host, and they would rattle on about this and that in a completely normal commercial radio kind of way.
That's the thing: Fox News puts itself across as a completely normal and neutral news service that supports this administration. And the people who listen to it are completely normal and neutral consumers of media who also happen to support the Administration. They just stay inside the Fox bubble.
So there IS continual caravans of immigrants coming to invade the USA from the south, and we need the wall to stop these bastards. And some rougher than usual handling is par for the course, right? Anyway, Obama did it, so what's the problem.
Yeah, President Trump said the media could drink bleach, but only the libtards would make out that he actually meant it. C'mon, who would believe that the President would tell people to drink bleach?
I could go on.
My point is that a large number of HUMANS (lets not forget Brexit and Pauline Hanson's One Nation, inter alia) are conservative in their outlook. In America, conservatives want to believe that President Trump is a good President and there are plenty of people to confirm that for them, and some of them are authoritative figures, like Dana Perino. She's a stand-up gal, right? She knows Washington from the inside. And she does. How many other really smart and presentable conservative commentators also support Trump? A shitload.
In Australia, we are reared to trust the Government. And we do. Not the politicians, the Government. In America, I think people are bought up to love the country, the idea of America, as expressed in the Pledge of Allegiance. The President is the embodiment of the USA. You are supposed to trust him.
So don't fall into the trap of thinking Trump supporters are brain-dead cultists. Some are, but most, I argue, are just ordinary conservative people who don't watch the news unless its Fox. But really, isn't there baseball on? They are not bad people and they are not dumb.
Indoctrination and brainwashing are insidious and can capture anyone.
At some point a refusal to acknowledge the evidence has to come down to either malice, stupidity or outright delusion.
Agreed. But its still a mistake to call all Trump supporters cultists. And you must also agree that calling someone a cultist is loaded with negativity.
They acknowledge the evidence presented on the media they watch - Fox News. They find Fox News reliable and news services that do not reflect their views unreliable. Or, they aren't really interested in politics, and this stuff washes over them. So I really must disagree with you.