Hopefully you all will excuse me for not taking part in the discussion! I would have just been repeating a lot of what others said.
Like Huia, this is not my favorite Jane Austen book. But, I'm so glad I read it (again) and gained a lot of insight from all of you!
I don't know that it's anyone's favourite Austen book. The objections to amateur dramatics are difficult for modern readers to sympathise with, and Fanny is I think the protagonist least like Austen herself. (If you like an author you probably like those characters most like the implied author.)
I don't know. It might be my favorite (tied with P & P), but that's because I like books that translate me into a whole culture, and I feel like I'm there watching. Mansfield Park does that, even if there's no particular character I identify with. I like to see what makes the various people tick, and how and why their setting results in them making various choices or doing certain odd things.
I already mentioned that MP is my current favorite, which is followed by Persuasion. I haven't reread Austen much in the past few years and find I'm now most drawn the two works that come closest to Tragedy.
Sorry to miss this - I was hoping to use this an opportunity to re-read, but my November turned into absolute chaos at work. I still think P&P and Persuasion are my favourites but would be curious to go back to MP.
I think perhaps which one is a favourite depends on your mood when reading. I remember really loving Persuasion when I read it in my twenties. I re-read it a couple of years ago, and didn't enjoy it nearly as much. I think I liked Mansfield Park better than Emma when I read them both last month, but maybe reading them so close together meant I didn't appreciate Emma quite as much as I should. I do find Mr Knightly having been in love with Emma since she was thirteen slightly creepy.
I was actually in a somewhat similar situation with Mr. Lamb when we were dating (I was 19, he 37, and definitely both bossy and cranky--though I put that down to cultural differences). We had a helluva lot of fights. But bossiness is not surprising from an older Vietnamese man of his time speaking to a younger woman when he's trying to hide his romantic interest--he cast the whole thing in terms of an older-brother relationship--and older brothers in Vietnam just ARE bossy, because older siblings are closer to being mini-parents than they are to being equals. It's a very hierarchical society.
As long as I could walk away without repercussions, I figured it was healthy enough. And I made it abundantly clear that if he ever laid a finger on me, it would be Over.
(I was coming off a crappy pseudo-relationship with a very juvenile fellow student, and so when Mr Lamb floated the trial balloon of us dating, I told him I'd give him three months before I decided whether to kick him to the curb or not. We've been married 32 years, and every so often he asks me if his probation time is up. I tell him I'm still thinking.)
I do find Mr Knightly having been in love with Emma since she was thirteen slightly creepy.
Definitely by current standards, but back then the legal Age of Consent was 12. Significantly, Emma hopes that Mr. Knightley will treat the Westons' daughter the same way he had treated her except for, of course, falling in love with her when she turns 13.
ETA: I'm now remembering all the jokes we made in High School English when we learned that Edgar Allen Poe married a 13-year-old.
We've been married 32 years, and every so often he asks me if his probation time is up. I tell him I'm still thinking.)
"...Miss Crawford made us laugh by her plans of encouragement for her brother. She meant to urge him to persevere in the hope of being loved in time, and of having addresses kindly received at the end of about ten years happy marriage."
You've beaten what would have been Fanny's record!
I do find Mr Knightly having been in love with Emma since she was thirteen slightly creepy.
I always assumed we were supposed to think that he didn't realise he was falling in love with her for several years - that his interest at the start really was big brotherly.
I find Edmund slightly creepy, actually. Ok, full disclosure: very creepy. Maybe he starts out with good intentions, being nice to the poor lonely cousin, but he basically forces her into becoming his Ideal Woman - and then forgets all the lofty principles he taught her the minute Mary Crawford comes along. Just as well she took them more seriously than he did, because if she'd fallen off that pedestal he wouldn't have been interested in putting her back.
Maybe it's because I can't imagine wanting to marry Edmund myself. It would be like marrying your bossy older brother.
Austen's men are interesting, as the sexy ones are unreliable and dodgy, and the respectable ones unsexy. OK, there's Darcy, but that's off TV. It would be like marrying your brother. But Bingley and Darcy offer an interesting contrast, some people see them as 18th century and 19th century types. Is Edmund poisoned by evangelicalism?
I find Edmund slightly creepy, actually. Ok, full disclosure: very creepy. Maybe he starts out with good intentions, being nice to the poor lonely cousin, but he basically forces her into becoming his Ideal Woman - and then forgets all the lofty principles he taught her the minute Mary Crawford comes along. Just as well she took them more seriously than he did, because if she'd fallen off that pedestal he wouldn't have been interested in putting her back.
Maybe it's because I can't imagine wanting to marry Edmund myself. It would be like marrying your bossy older brother.
I'm glad someone else thinks the same about Edmund. Fanny would have been so much better off with Henry Crawford.
That's a common view. It's partly connected to Austen's love of triangles, Henry, Fanny, Edmund, then Fanny, Edmund, Mary, and Julia, Henry, Maria, and so on. I suppose adultery explodes everything. Sex is good but has to be fenced off, or its a wilderness, and you might fall into the ha ha and tear your gown.
I find Edmund slightly creepy, actually. Ok, full disclosure: very creepy. Maybe he starts out with good intentions, being nice to the poor lonely cousin, but he basically forces her into becoming his Ideal Woman - and then forgets all the lofty principles he taught her the minute Mary Crawford comes along. Just as well she took them more seriously than he did, because if she'd fallen off that pedestal he wouldn't have been interested in putting her back.
Maybe it's because I can't imagine wanting to marry Edmund myself. It would be like marrying your bossy older brother.
I think that interpretation of Edmund's intentions is a little unfair--Mary defends his treatment of Fanny to her brother--but this is indeed another case of "creepy by our standards" overall. The first time I read MP, I wound up agreeing with Mrs. Norris that people raised together falling in love was quasi-incestuous (though Austen herself obviously disagreed in this case).
Tangent:
Per changing standards, I remember a review of a Lewis Carroll biography which mentioned that he was a serial adulterer; his earliest biographers tried to cover it up by presenting him as an idolizer of youthful innocence. We know that tactic ultimately backfired big time.
By the way, I recommend (future Book Club suggestion?) Henry James's The Europeans, which is similar enough to MP that my local Austen group once assigned it for discussion. Two siblings disrupt a local community; besides the Crawford stand-ins, there is a Fanny stand-in and two Edmund stand-ins (can't explain more without spoilers).
Epilogue: Per a contribution on the Jane Eyre Book Club Thread, the following is from a 2004 Heaven Thread for modern retellings/parodies (unfortunately, it no longer exists, but I downloaded it while it still did).
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on 18 February, 2004 20:26 :
On another thread I said: "I think Austen's novels should be rewritten to put some action in and give them plots." To which Belisarius replied: "Yeah, and put some car crashes and explosions while you're at it. [Rolleyes] "
So let's. Most people agree that Mansfield Park lacks sparkle, so here goes.
* * *
"Fanny!" called her mother for the hundredth time. "Come out of that bathroom!"
"I'm doing my hair!" Fanny shouted back and lay back in the warm scented water to continue reading Hello! magazine.
"You haven't got time," said her mother through the keyhole. "Get packed, you're going to stay with Aunt Norris in the country."
"I don't want to, she's old and boring."
"If you don't come out of that bathroom and start packing I am going to go into your room and tear down your picture of Justin Timberlake."
We will draw a veil over that scene, gentle reader, and deposit you, together with Fanny, at the gates of Mansfield Park, where Fanny sees the place that is to be her new home for the first time.
[Please continue]
Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on 18 February, 2004 20:29 :
I did Mansfield for A-level and in order to spice it up a tad, a friend and I wrote a musical version. Songs included "It's Uncanny Fanny (But I love you)", "It's an apricot - no it's not" and Maria's classic "Don't rush me Mr Rushworth"
We should have got out more.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on 18 February, 2004 20:32 :
She covers her corset after Justin Timberlake ripped off the flower obscuring her visage.
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 18 February, 2004 20:36 :
"Now, girls," said Sir Thomas as Fanny waited outside, "we all know your cousin is plain and ignorant, but throw her a bone, will you? I'll pay for Spring Break in Antigua if you do."
Maria and Julia stood sullenly, dressed in aubergine (the new black) and clove cigarettes dangling from their lips.
"Whatever, Dad," said Maria.
"C'mon, Maria," urged Julia. "You have to drive me to the Electric Six concert while my license is suspended--"
"OK, OK--later, Dad," said Maria as they sidled away...
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 18 February, 2004 20:43 :
"That went well, dear," said Sir Thomas to Lady Bertram, who sat on the sofa in a Valium-induced stupor. "So when Fanny comes to visit from your place, Mrs. Norris--"
"What??--Oh, Sir Thomas, I didn't realize you expected me to have her!" Fanny would be sure to find the S&M gear Mrs. Norris used on her pathetic wimp of a husband if she lived there...
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on 18 February, 2004 20:48 :
Sir Thomas thought about the magazines he'd stuffed hastily under the sofa before Mrs Norris came in. He supposed he could try blaming them on Edmund if she found them, but rejected the idea: nobody would believe it.
"Oh well, I suppose we can put her up for a bit," he said. "What's another teenager in the house, anyway," and gave Mrs Norris the sort of look that said he was going to pay her back for this.
So Fanny moved into the attic, with a little help from Edmund.
"It's really creepy," said Edmund. "One of the servants died up here a few years ago, so you might hear some noises in the night."
"Wow!" said Fanny and her eyes sparkled. "A real live ghost?"
Edmund looked doubtfully at her. He wasn't sure he liked her, but suppressed the thought. His New Year Resolution had been to like everybody, and he was going to stick to it.
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 18 February, 2004 20:50 :
Fanny sullenly lay on the attic's cot, unable to entertain herself with the Maria and Julia's castoff CDs or magazines; what had been rejected as so 2003 and no longer even mockworthy by the Bertram girls was still above her head. "Now I have to go to the bathroom," she muttered to herself as she descended the dark creaky, stairs.
"This is spooky," Fanny thought
Suddenly, the mask from Scream got in her face!
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!" screamed Fanny.
"Fanny, what's wrong?" shouted Edmund as he ran to the attic.
"HAHAHAHA!" Tom Bertram took off his mask. "She fell for the ghost story!"
Fanny flushed with shame and hoped she hadn't peed her pants.
"What's this?" Tom asked mockedly as he picked up the crumbled Justin Timberlake poster. "You like this faggot?"
"You're such an asshole, Tom," sighed Edmund...
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on 18 February, 2004 21:22 :
"I know, but you love me," said Tom. Julia and Maria made retching noises.
"I've got this brilliant idea," said Julia. "You know Dad's away on a business trip next week? Why don't we invite some boys over and have a party?"
"Yeah!" said Maria enthusiastically, then her enthusiasm dimmed. "What boys? All we've got locally is Mr Rushworth who spends his time trying to get me alone in the rose garden. I keep telling him I've got a headache but he won't take no for an answer and he's a lousy kisser."
"Yes, him," said Julia. "Also there's Henry Crawford and his sister. Henry's all right if you ignore the green wellingtons and pretentious accent, and don't lend him any money."
"I'll invite Mr Yates," said Tom.
There was a universal groan. "How can you be friends with a guy who plays air guitar at parties and listens to Cliff Richard CDs?" asked Julia.
"He's weird," said Maria. "Also his trouser legs are too short."
"I like him," said Edmund.
"You would," said Julia. "Maybe we could do a play or something if there are enough of us?"
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 19 February, 2004 00:04 :
The preparations for the blowout went smoothly, as Sir Thomas, the only adult with remotely a clue, was easy to avoid. Before he left, Mrs. Norris came over for the week to keep an eye on things, but the chaperoning was in name only.
"I hope my sister appreciates us taking you off her hands for a while," Mrs. Norris lectured as she sat in the Bertrams' jacuzzi, holding her third glass of Sir Thomas's scotch.
"I dunno," mumbled an embarrassed Fanny.
"I'm not sure she would--she got kicked out of the house for getting knocked up, you know," Aunt Norris irritably volunteered.
As Fanny contemplated shoving Aunt Norris's head under the swirling water, she heard Sir Thomas call "I'm leaving!" Jumping at the excuse, Fanny raced down.
As Edmund had to keep his appointment for Volunteer Work at the Shelter ("He is SO doing it just to put on his resumé," complained his siblings), Fanny was the only one who bothered to come.
"Oh--goodbye, Fanny. Yeesh, get some sun, will you?"
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 19 February, 2004 00:36 :
The guests came the following afternoon. Mr. Rushworth was first.
"Uh, hey, Maria--I just got a new Porsche."
"Really," replied Maria, just politely enough to keep her options open.
The Crawfords came next. Transferring colleges had transformed Henry--he had been working out, and his tattoos, piercings, and soul patch were subtle yet distinct. Both Maria and Julia were hot and bothered, but did a good job of not showing it.
"So where's this sister you have?" asked Julia with fake ennui.
"Here! Thanks for waiting, Henry--NOT!" laughed Mary as she bounded in.
Maria and Julia smiled complacently. Mary may have been pretty in an obvious, beauty-paegent way, but they were the epitome of Tragically Hip Chic.
"Oh, are the guests here?" said Edmund as he came outside with Fanny.
"So you're Edmund," Mary greeted him. "How's it goin'?"
"You're hot," blurted Edmund.
"I know," laughed Mary. "Good to know the contacts work--oh, look, he's blushing!"
Fanny was quite a bit pissed-off at Edmund being teased like that.
"And this is our cousin Fanny," said Edmund a little too loudly.
"Nice to meet you," said Mary, politely hiding her impression of what a lame name "Fanny" was.
Meanwhile, Tom was takling to Yates on his cellphone.
"Dude, I thought you listened to Cliff Richard as a joke...no, we're going to act something out...I dunno...wait! Let's do American Pie--we got the whole thing memorized..."
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on 19 February, 2004 12:26 :
"No way," said Maria promptly. She glared at Rushworth. "Let's stick with some good old-fashioned costume drama. Maybe a scene from the Bible or something."
"A scene from the Bible?" said Tom in disbelief. "Still, if Dad walks in unexpectedly, we can always claim we're doing something for Edmund's church group."
"What's the matter with you?" said Rushworth to Maria. "You were much nicer when you came round to my house the other day."
"It's a nice house and your Dad is cute," said Maria. "What happened to your mum?"
"She died when someone blew her car up," said Rushworth. "We think it was Dad but it's never been proved. Why don't you come into the rose garden and I'll tell you more about it?"
"Thanks, I won't, I've got a headache," said Maria.
"So take an aspirin," said Rushworth.
"While you're all deciding," said Henry, "I'll just go and get some booze from the nearest off-licence. Fanny, will you come? And can someone lend me some money?"
"No problem, take my credit card," said Rushworth. "Or put it on my account or something. You might have to sign as me but you could easily forge my signature, couldn't you?"
Fanny, her heart beating rapidly, left the house with Henry a few minutes later, together with Rushworth's credit card, Mary's car keys, Tom's umbrella and Mrs Norris' pug. The thought of being alone with Henry was intoxicating, and the nearest off licence was miles away.
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 19 February, 2004 15:47 :
Though Fanny still thought Henry kinda ugly, his post-slacker vibe was a source of guilty fascination, making her mind wander from the masculine ideals of Edmund and boy-bands.
Henry was moderately glad of Fanny's presence--her attractiveness was pity-sex-level at best, but he wanted to impress someone, and his grudge against the Bertram girls, who wouldn't give him the time of day a semester ago, was still strong. He had plans for them--but for later.
"Well, Fanny," he said as he checked the radar detector, "I have the need for speed--"
Fanny gasped as the car shot past most of the known Speed Limits...
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 20 February, 2004 02:03 :
As the car wildly weaved through traffic, Fanny's infatuation evaporated. "Tom may be a jerk, but this guy's psycho!" she desperately thought as her nails dug into her seat. At least she hadn't had to go to the bathroom this time around.
Finally, they made it to the off license.
"You want to come in?" Henry asked matter-of-factly.
"No," Fanny managed to breathe. She was too terrified to say anything else, but Henry assumed she was simply hormonally overcome and walked away smiling a little smile.
As Fanny sat trembling, she heard a voice--
"I'm at the off-license now...no, I'm still playing them--Cliff has a great voice, man!"
Fanny leaped out of the car and ran towards the cell-phone user--"excuse me, are you Tom's friend?"
"Uh, yeah," said Yates. "Why? You want to say hi to--"
"--Can you give me a ride to his place?"
"I--"
"Thanks!" Racing to the entrance, Fanny flung it open and shouted inside "Henry-I'm-getting-a-ride-back-see-you-later-bye!!..."
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on 20 February, 2004 06:56 :
"So," said Fanny as she strolled into the room, "what play are we doing?"
"American Pie!"
"The Bible!"
"Thoroughly Modern Millie!"
"Snow White and the Seven Sex Dwarfs!"
"A stage version of ET and you're it!"
Nobody noticed that a helicopter had just landed on the lawn outside, forcing them to shout to be heard, or that the curtains billowed wildly into the room, knocking various precious vases off the tables where they fell to the floor and shattered beyond repair. A split second later Sir Thomas strode into the room, looked at the strangely clad assortment of young people, and we will draw a veil over that scene too, gentle reader.
"Stuff this," said Fanny rebelliously some time later. "I'm not going to stay here and be treated like this," and she packed her bags and caught the train home to Portsmouth.
When she got there things hadn't changed much. The house was dirtier, her mother still went to Bingo in the evenings, and her sisters still hung out on street corners with youths. Fanny sighed with contentment and shut herself in the bathroom for a long soak in a hot bath, with only a mobile phone, drink and pile of magazines for company. It was then that Henry started texting her.
r u ok?
wat did i do?
y dont u reply?
r u ded?
"Oh, for pete's sake," said Fanny irritably. She was just about to text back something rude when another message came through.
am comng 2 c u
Fanny shot out of the bath and got dried and dressed in record time, her brain working wildly. Something had to be done.
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 20 February, 2004 08:03 :
"Are you at least using a hands-free phone?" Mary asked.
"Uh-huh," lied Henry as he caused yet another driver to slam on his brakes.
"I'm worried about you. It's one thing to get the Bertram girls to have a screaming catfight over you in front of everyone, but why go after Fanny? I mean, she seemed nice, but really--'Fanny.' Ew."
"I wouldn't talk, with you going out with Mr. Up-With-People--"
"Hey, I'm getting Edmund to loosen up! And he happens to be gorgeous--Fanny isn't even that pretty."
"Aw, don't be jealous, sis--I'll never love any woman more than you--"
"Shut up, you're creeping me out. Why are you really going, Henry?"
"Honestly? It's just become too easy--with a little work, they all throw themselves at my feet--except Fanny. I mean, she should be desperate, but she stayed away from me that whole week and won't text me back! Wait a minute--do you think she's a lesbian?"
"On that note, I'm hanging up now--just don't do anything mean to her, OK?"
"Don't worry--she'll have the time of her life..."
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on 20 February, 2004 10:06 :
Henry arrived in a cloud of dust and a squeal of brakes, with a bunch of flowers he had bought on impulse at a service station on the way. He hoped she wouldn't notice that they were looking a bit tired. Fanny accepted them without enthusiasm, noticing they looked a bit tired, also that Henry had only paid 2.99 for them, and agreed to go for a walk with him. It was the only way to get rid of him, and she didn't want the family listening in. They wandered off down Southsea Pier to the funfair where Henry bought chips and a burger and explained his point of view to Fanny. By the time he'd finished speaking, he even believed it himself.
"Nothing doing," said Fanny. "I'm a lesbian."
"You just haven't met the right man yet."
"Don't care. I've decided to join a convent and give my life to God and spend it doing good works and all that."
"Well, you'd get weekends off, wouldn't you?" said Henry.
"I don't want weekends off," said Fanny.
"Look," said Henry, "I'm prepared to forget all this and give you another chance. Maybe we could make it work this time if we both try."
"Henry, men are from Mars, women are from Earth, deal with it," said Fanny and walked away, and there was nothing Henry could do except sulk, throw the remains of his burger into the sea, and go back to his car, where he found he'd got a parking ticket and been clamped. He got some satisfaction from using Rushworth's credit card to pay it off, and kicking the pug, but it wasn't enough.
Posted by Belisarius (# 32) on 20 February, 2004 14:57 :
Several days later, Fanny's mother yelled to her that her cousin was on the phone.
"Hello, Fanny--sorry to bother you, but I don't know who else to talk to--"
"That's OK, Edmund--"
"Well, you things have been bad, what with Dad's problems with the Internal Revenue and the thing with Tom, Yates, and Mistress Cruella, but now..."
"Yes, Edmund?" Fanny nervously prodded.
"--Maria dropped out of school and married that trust-fund idiot Rushworth!" Fanny couldn't help but gasp. "I could understand one date because she felt sorry for him, or even..." Edmund stopped to gulp. "...going on a fancy vacation with him, but marriage? All her ex-friends have branded her a lame Anna Nicole Smith wannabe and joke about how much of a divorce settlement she'll get next year--oh, Fanny, the worst thing is that it's true!"
"Oh, no," Fanny said for Edmund's sake.
"When she called, she said Henry Crawford made her think all men were scum anyway, so she might as well get rich off it if she could. When I told Mary--oh, Fanny, this is just getting worse..."
"You had a fight?" Fanny carefully hid the glee in her voice.
"...I can understand her trying to defend her brother, but when she called my sister a trendoid drama queen and said everyone should just get over it, I...it's over. Well, sorry to bother you, Fanny--"
Comments
Like Huia, this is not my favorite Jane Austen book. But, I'm so glad I read it (again) and gained a lot of insight from all of you!
As long as I could walk away without repercussions, I figured it was healthy enough. And I made it abundantly clear that if he ever laid a finger on me, it would be Over.
(I was coming off a crappy pseudo-relationship with a very juvenile fellow student, and so when Mr Lamb floated the trial balloon of us dating, I told him I'd give him three months before I decided whether to kick him to the curb or not. We've been married 32 years, and every so often he asks me if his probation time is up. I tell him I'm still thinking.)
Definitely by current standards, but back then the legal Age of Consent was 12. Significantly, Emma hopes that Mr. Knightley will treat the Westons' daughter the same way he had treated her except for, of course, falling in love with her when she turns 13.
ETA: I'm now remembering all the jokes we made in High School English when we learned that Edgar Allen Poe married a 13-year-old.
I always assumed we were supposed to think that he didn't realise he was falling in love with her for several years - that his interest at the start really was big brotherly.
Maybe it's because I can't imagine wanting to marry Edmund myself. It would be like marrying your bossy older brother.
Also Colonel Brandon looks like a cross between Professor Snape and Hans Gruber from Die Hard.
I'm glad someone else thinks the same about Edmund. Fanny would have been so much better off with Henry Crawford.
I think that interpretation of Edmund's intentions is a little unfair--Mary defends his treatment of Fanny to her brother--but this is indeed another case of "creepy by our standards" overall. The first time I read MP, I wound up agreeing with Mrs. Norris that people raised together falling in love was quasi-incestuous (though Austen herself obviously disagreed in this case).
Tangent:
Per changing standards, I remember a review of a Lewis Carroll biography which mentioned that he was a serial adulterer; his earliest biographers tried to cover it up by presenting him as an idolizer of youthful innocence. We know that tactic ultimately backfired big time.